127 replies to this topic

[Grus]

the laser vomit needs to stop https://postimg.org/image/bemdyvzgf/

[Fuerchtenichts]

I guess then a lot of IS pilots have similar screenshots clearly showing CLAN tech is OP.

[The Basilisk]

Grus, on 28 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

the laser vomit needs to stop https://postimg.org/image/bemdyvzgf/

The only thing that you realy showed here is that Clan Ghost Bear succed again.

Just joking.

Now seriously....most of the times its simpy team performance and on forest colony you simply cant just outrange IS troops.

Piloting both clan and IS mechs let me tell you its very much the other way round.
Playing Clan mechs is easymode most of the time.
Except certain maps where range and alpha is neutered by dps and sturdiness.

[Fuerchtenichts]

The Basilisk, on 29 December 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

The only thing that you realy showed here is that Clan Ghost Bear succed again.

You know playing for Marik immediately causes a pilot skill reduction of 20%?

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

A thread with marik and ghostbear pilots accusing each other of being weak sauce.
Cant argue with that.

[Grus]

The Basilisk, on 29 December 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

The only thing that you realy showed here is that Clan Ghost Bear succed again.

Just joking.

Now seriously....most of the times its simpy team performance and on forest colony you simply cant just outrange IS troops.

Piloting both clan and IS mechs let me tell you its very much the other way round.
Playing Clan mechs is easymode most of the time.
Except certain maps where range and alpha is neutered by dps and sturdiness.

Look into do enjoy a good thrashing now and then *sempi* but when a IS mech with "weaker" wepons and armor can outoutlast and out damage a clan mech it's on the cusp of bull crap. Math don't lie, with the Mech person for IS it can get crazy...

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Yes...make the good IS players ( and teams) use AC and Srms only!

Seriously...sometimes you face good players on the IS side (which you did) and just get beat. Nothing shocking here. Situation normal.

[Grus]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 29 December 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

Yes...make the good IS players ( and teams) use AC and Srms only!

Seriously...sometimes you face good players on the IS side (which you did) and just get beat. Nothing shocking here. Situation normal.

Not denying that was a good team. But when all I'm seeing match after match is IS mechs stuffed full of large lasers that won't overheat it gets old quick.

[Grus]

Put another way, when the other team has more tonnage, better wepon performance, and stronger mechs, it does help me grow as a player by leaps and bounds. But when I'm in a mech that "should" be better by all means and im still getting my arsenal handed to me, is it still all the pilot?

The expense of clan tech vs IS taken into account also adds another unbalanced aspect to the equation.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Grus, on 29 December 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

Not denying that was a good team. But when all I'm seeing match after match is IS mechs stuffed full of large lasers that won't overheat it gets old quick.

I get the feeling...I recently faced one of the good IS teams when we had combat ID and saw them bringing 12 Warhammers. I thought "this may not go well"....it didn't. I didn't begrudge them their 12 wammies though

Again, I expect the good teams to bring nothing but meta builds. The Clan teams often do likewise. Both sides play to win and if I don't like the IS complaining about our meta build stomp-machines, I can't complain about theirs.

The tonnage difference does show up in team vs team matches...but good IS players/teams won at 250 v 250 before the tonnage changes and the tonnage change probably just makes those matches a little more lopsided now. Sure it, could make all the difference in a close match...but this wasn't close to a close match. PGI seems to be trying to offset the IS PUGs losing nearly every time (despite tonnage), by helping the IS teams win even more than before (not that they really needed the help)

[Grus]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 29 December 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

I get the feeling...I recently faced one of the good IS teams when we had combat ID and saw them bringing 12 Warhammers. I thought "this may not go well"....it didn't. I didn't begrudge them their 12 wammies though

Again, I expect the good teams to bring nothing but meta builds. The Clan teams often do likewise. Both sides play to win and if I don't like the IS complaining about our meta build stomp-machines, I can't complain about theirs.

The tonnage difference does show up in team vs team matches...but good IS players/teams won at 250 v 250 before the tonnage changes and the tonnage change probably just makes those matches a little more lopsided now. Sure it, could make all the difference in a close match...but this wasn't close to a close match. PGI seems to be trying to offset the IS PUGs losing nearly every time (despite tonnage), by helping the IS teams win even more than before (not that they really needed the help)

Well put. Tonnage is a big issue in team battles. 10 per player adds up. And with all these IS mech tweeks/perks I find it really hard to see the "superiority" in a clan mech.

But clan wins in the looks category... god the look good.

[Stormie]

I dunno... Were you guys running the ARC7 #special PPC&ERSL builds?
Seriously though, IS seems to be harder work our win rate is approx half (2)what it was when we were clan4(4.5) since going IS (then again we've been clan for a year so maybe just haven't figured out how to play IS yet). And quit complaining about the IS mechs running cooler... They don't, not with the recent heat cap changes.Plus you get to deal full damage 100mtrs further out.
To quote someone who bothered doing the numbers for a different thread...

Yeonne Greene, on 19 December 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

You are not very good at this.

The 24 DHS the Clan build (assuming TBR with one S-torso) gives you has a heat-cap of 85.2. One shot from your alpha puts you at 51.6%.

The 20 DHS the IS 'Mech gives you (assuming BK) has a heat-cap of 78.0. One shot from your alpha puts you at 48.7%

Golly jee, near-enough-as-makes-no-difference! But wait, sonny, there's more!

The dissipation on the Clan build gives you a rate of 4.71. It takes 9.3 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

The dissipation on the IS build gives you a rate of 3.85. It takes 9.4 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

Hmmm, pretty close again! But we're not through yet!

If we drop the S-torso on the TBR and run no JJs (the BK doesn't get JJs anyway), we can fit in another two DHS, giving us a cap of 88.8 and a dissipation of 5.06. We now hit 49.5% on the first shot and get rid of the heat in 8.7 seconds...a whole 0.7 seconds faster.

And on top of having nearly identical soak ratio and dissipation rates, you get to start dealing your full damage a whole 150+ meters sooner! Because targeting computers and ER lasers! Yeah!

Now how about a build that actually competes in the same bracket, buddy?

7x cMPL
56 Damage
46.8 Heat

Same 26 DHS. 52.7% after firing, takes 9.2 seconds to dissipate completely. On top of this, you are dishing out 65.9 damage per second over the course of your burn, which is more than the 57.8 you get from your named IS build, and also more than the 64.4 you get from the 3xLPL+5xML build you would find on the BK in a real match. A BK which, by the way, runs 19 DHS, so it soaks to 53% in one shot and has to wait 10.6 seconds to fire again!


And you people wonder why the IS get heat gen quirks. It's because not only do they actually run just as hot for less damage and less range, they have to be able to fire more once they finally get in range to compensate for the damage they received on the way in.

This schooling session is now closed. Next time, do your homework before mouthing off.

Edit: Oh, and the BK has its hard-points at belly-button level. Enjoy!

Edited by Stormie, 29 December 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[Grus]

Stormie, on 29 December 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

I dunno... Were you guys running the ARC7 #special PPC&ERSL builds?
Seriously though, IS seems to be harder work our win rate is approx half (2)what it was when we were clan4(4.5) since going IS (then again we've been clan for a year so maybe just haven't figured out how to play IS yet). And quit complaining about the IS mechs running cooler... They don't, not with the recent heat cap changes.Plus you get to deal full damage 100mtrs further out.
To quote someone who bothered doing the numbers for a different thread...

Hmm interesting. I'm not at my computer at home right now but I'll have to run the numbers with comparable IS vs Clan mech to make sure the math is right. (Love math) and I get "numbers don't lie" but neither does experience. And over and over I see myself just getting out gunned and out damaged at the same tonnage range.

[Grus]

Kinda excited to build a spreadsheet for this. It's nice to, excEl at excell;)

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

Stormie, on 29 December 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

Read the faction play forums widely you'll see consensus that the clans are stronger overall, to the point where the have the best (and in some cases the best 2/3/4) mechs in each weightclass.

Highly debatable. In comp play with an emphasize on high mounts and mobility yes, in fp not so much.
Besides 25 tons are huge for players of equal skill and on 12vs12 games IS does have an extreme edge at the moment.

(nice math in the other post ... i somehow had a good feeling using mpl lately, but i was more driven to them for beeing the only weapon with acceptable duration)

[Vxheous]

Dark Wooki33 IIC, on 29 December 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Highly debatable. In comp play with an emphasize on high mounts and mobility yes, in fp not so much.
Besides 25 tons are huge for players of equal skill and on 12vs12 games IS does have an extreme edge at the moment.

(nice math in the other post ... i somehow had a good feeling using mpl lately, but i was more driven to them for beeing the only weapon with acceptable duration)

Good mechs are good mechs, regardless of Comp or QP or FW.
Best Assault? Kodiak (followed by Marauder IIc and Battlemaster 2c)

Best Heavy? Timberwolf all around, Night Gyr jump sniping/hot map, Ebon Jag hill humper, Hellbringer ECM (followed by IS with Warhammers and Grasshopper 5P)

Best Medium? Hunchback IIc all around, Stormcrow close behind that, Nova for niche brawl (IS has Griffin for Brawl, Blackjack 3 for poptart, Blackjack 1x for lasers, Hunchback 4SP for tankiness)

Best Lights? Arctic Cheetah hands down, followed by Jenner IIc (best part about clan lights in FW is they don't have to worry about getting insta-gibbed by Streaks)

I agree that the extra 25 tons on the IS side gives far more options, most of which is used to get out of having to use a light mech as the 4th slot option (thus avoiding getting instagibbed by streaks) IS still has to be very on point in protecting the XL engine side torso loss. Granted, I've rarely seen ARC7 guys torso twist to shed damage so that point is moot.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 29 December 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[MovinTarget]

So funny to see both ends of the spectrum... I am sure there are clan units looking at the overall FP stats and see the +W/L for clans, look at their own stats and wonder "Why can't I do that? or "Why does my experience vary so much from the 'norm'?"

On the same token there are several IS units that look at the same stats where IS is generally -W/L and see their own +W/L and wonder why the rest of the IS doesn't get it.

As frustrating as it may seem at times, you can't just look at your own experience and assume anything about the rest of FP necessarily.

Balance, as PGI would like to achieve (I think), is:
Players of equal skill and organization pitted against each other will have roughly a 50/50 chance of winning. This does not mean that Clan vs IS = 1.0 W/L across the board. It means the best will occasionally lose, the worst will occasionally win and everyone in the middle will approach 1.0 W/L over time.

The other thing to remember is that Clans started *really* strong in FP 4.0 and through machinations (tonnage) *and* ingenuity (IS players developing new tactics and builds, mostly out of desperation) we *are* seeing a gradual normalization across the field. Yes, some mercs have moved to IS, they've leveled their MAD IIc and are back on this side... Clan population is still hovering around 42% which is what its been since the patch.

So while in theory, yes, clan tech should be vastly superior to IS, due to limitations in game, you are going to have to deal with balance being attempted the way it is...

Besides Stars vs Lances? you'd actually be bringing *LESS* tonnage overall (this kills the 25 tons less/pilot argument)

12 pilots x 265 tons = 3180 tons
12 pilots x 250 tons = 3000 tons
12 pilots x 240 tons = 2880 tons
10 pilots x 250 tons = 2500 tons!!!

so if tonnage were even @250, but clans only had 10 pilots, you'd have a 500 ton differential vs 300 ton differential with 12 @240 vs 12 @265

yes, the 10 pilots would have 10 tons more each, but someone would still whine about tonnage differential.

I get there are more variables at play here, like removing quirks and re-buffing clan tech to compensate, but I'm willing to bet that even if we did this, made it 10 v 12, there would still be complaints about balance...

...because often people only look at their own experience and/or anecdotal evidence.

Don't think I'm talking only to Clan players, this all goes both ways. I hear too much from IS players that they can't compete vs clan ranges, they don't even want to try to think outside the box and devise tactics and crap.

If this is the thinking man's shooter... maybe we all need to think more... *all* of us...

Edited by MovinTarget, 29 December 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[DoctorDetroit]

Grus, on 28 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

the laser vomit needs to stop https://postimg.org/image/bemdyvzgf/

Try achieving a higher skill level. Perhaps you should have at least played enough to be tier 1 or 2 before commenting on balance. And you should be getting more than 600 dmg in even the worst CW matches.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 29 December 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Grus]

DoctorDetroit, on 29 December 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

Try achieving a higher skill level. Perhaps you should have at least played enough to be tier 1 or 2 before commenting on balance. And you should be getting more than 600 dmg in even the worst CW matches.

Hard to do when IS mech with 4 large can insta gib a shoulder at 800m. Can't poke out to do damage when that's a normal. Add that to the more armor/better being used by IS and the face that they can alpha way more than ANY clan mech can before shutdown... yeah... I've used the "deathstar" 6er large assalt mech for IS and just wrecked face with it. But I try something like that on clan and I'll watch my mech explode.. seems fair...

[Grus]

MovinTarget, on 29 December 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

So funny to see both ends of the spectrum... I am sure there are clan units looking at the overall FP stats and see the +W/L for clans, look at their own stats and wonder "Why can't I do that? or "Why does my experience vary so much from the 'norm'?"

On the same token there are several IS units that look at the same stats where IS is generally -W/L and see their own +W/L and wonder why the rest of the IS doesn't get it.

As frustrating as it may seem at times, you can't just look at your own experience and assume anything about the rest of FP necessarily.

Balance, as PGI would like to achieve (I think), is:
Players of equal skill and organization pitted against each other will have roughly a 50/50 chance of winning. This does not mean that Clan vs IS = 1.0 W/L across the board. It means the best will occasionally lose, the worst will occasionally win and everyone in the middle will approach 1.0 W/L over time.

The other thing to remember is that Clans started *really* strong in FP 4.0 and through machinations (tonnage) *and* ingenuity (IS players developing new tactics and builds, mostly out of desperation) we *are* seeing a gradual normalization across the field. Yes, some mercs have moved to IS, they've leveled their MAD IIc and are back on this side... Clan population is still hovering around 42% which is what its been since the patch.

So while in theory, yes, clan tech should be vastly superior to IS, due to limitations in game, you are going to have to deal with balance being attempted the way it is...

Besides Stars vs Lances? you'd actually be bringing *LESS* tonnage overall (this kills the 25 tons less/pilot argument)

12 pilots x 265 tons = 3180 tons
12 pilots x 250 tons = 3000 tons
12 pilots x 240 tons = 2880 tons
10 pilots x 250 tons = 2500 tons!!!

so if tonnage were even @250, but clans only had 10 pilots, you'd have a 500 ton differential vs 300 ton differential with 12 @240 vs 12 @265

yes, the 10 pilots would have 10 tons more each, but someone would still whine about tonnage differential.

I get there are more variables at play here, like removing quirks and re-buffing clan tech to compensate, but I'm willing to bet that even if we did this, made it 10 v 12, there would still be complaints about balance...

...because often people only look at their own experience and/or anecdotal evidence.

Don't think I'm talking only to Clan players, this all goes both ways. I hear too much from IS players that they can't compete vs clan ranges, they don't even want to try to think outside the box and devise tactics and crap.

If this is the thinking man's shooter... maybe we all need to think more... *all* of us...

I agree with a lot of this. If this wasn't so much of a corridor shooter then id have to give you the win here. But the base attack is all a close range battle that the clan range issue (thier superiority) is a mute point. And since 8 times out of 10 engagement range is around 700m and less IS with quirks and a decent pilot will wreck face. Now flip it. My favorite mech right now is the Maddog with 6lrm5's with art. It tends to melt assaults and heavies alike as long as I can kite them. But that goes into the "skill" realm. But LRMs are realy easy to counter with light and the Mech only has 4medlaz for backup. And don't even talk to me about how paper-thin the armor is...