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I Really Suck At This...


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#41 no one

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:24 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 04 January 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

I want to learn how to do this myself. Right now I'm using a stock Hunchback IIC-A


Fun lore fact about the Hunchy IIC - they're basically the clan equivalent of a shofixti glory device. When a clan 'Mechwarrior reaches the ripe old age of 30 or so they get stuffed into a Hunchy IIC and told to go out with a bang.

What I'm saying is. . . max out the armor on that thing asap.

#42 Void Angel

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 03:32 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 04 January 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

I haven't done much at all in the way of customizing mechs. Other than adding the large lasers to the ACH-Prime and that was because someone told me to.

I want to learn how to do this myself. Right now I'm using a stock Hunchback IIC-A Here's the loadout from Smurfy http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=367&l=stock

I'd like to have a better chance at spotting the enemy before I walk into them. I'd like this to be a mid/close range fighter (unless that's a bad idea with this mech) and maximize my survivability. I'd love to hear not only your ideas but how you walk through the process of deciding what to do with a mech after you've played with it a bit.

OK! Here we go:

The first thing you want to do when you're modifying a chassis is to look at its hardpoints (and quirks) to see what it can be good at. Don't feel like you need to use all the hardpoints or quirks, but try to figure out what you want to do with the 'mech. The answer to that question should never be, "a little bit of everything," by the way - but that's a more complex subject. Suffice to say that you want to pick one thing to start with, and do that. We're going with short-ranged stomping power: UAC/40 for the win!

Next, max out the armor, and then pare it down to the nearest half ton (we're doing this in Smurfy, so you've got a tool for that under "tools.") We can shave it down more later if we want the tonnage. Once we've done that, we put in the guns - in our case, dual UAC/20s and two ER Mediums for non-ammo backup (I know it's just stock, but we'll assume we built it for the sake of illustration.) Now, here's where it gets a little technical - I don't like to pick my engine right away, but I do like to put in a placeholder so I don't accidentally run out of slots to fit an engine. In our example, we just slapped in a low-rated XL200 because we had it in the 'mech bay. We know two UAC/20s will produce a LOT of heat quickly, too, so we slap in a few heat sinks in order to help cool off, plug in some ammo... aaand we're out of tons. Actually, we have to shave a good amount of armor off of the arms, and we can only afford one ton of ammo for each gun. Assuming we have no jams, that's enough for a whole 12 seconds of glorious Autocannon combat and then we're down to two ER Mediums for the rest of the match.

We can get round this by ditching the two Heat Sinks we're not actually required to bring, as well as the jump jets. That brings us down to where we can afford 7 total tons of ammunition, which should be an acceptable level of combat endurance - but the build is still critically slow for a Medium. The speed is barely faster than many Atlas builds, and since the 'mech's engine also affects its torso twist speed, our ability to defend ourselves against fast Mediums and Lights will be limited. We'll need to stick with our slower teammates as much as we can, and if it comes time to make a run for it, we're hosed. Also, since the Heat Scale penalties for firing two UAC/20s at a time are pretty severe, we'll need to stagger fire and still be pretty hot.


So what we have here is probably a failed build; we can still put it on the field and see what happens, - but it's not likely to be pretty. Especially if you're new, lower-tier players just don't know how to deal with something that hits as hard as some Assaults, even if it can't sustain it. Yet we're so slow and clunky that we'll become an easy kill when that very firepower makes us a priority target. By and large, it's not a build destined for greatness - and we wanted midrange combat, too.

Thus, we can explore the options!

The critical flaw in our first build was the insistence on UAC/20s. They're just too big, taking up a huge proportion of our tonnage, and short-range only. But Autocannons are what this variant does, so we're keeping those - dropping down to two UAC/10s. Add in ammo (3 tons a launcher) and removing the extra heat sinks/ferro-fibrous armor, boost up that leg armor, and we're in business. Plug in jump jets because mobility is good, and we've got a pretty mean build. The ER Lasers supplement the UAC/10s in sustained combat (when someone is coming for our cookies instead of peeking around corners or over hills,) and you can harass with the UAC/10s literally until the ammo runs dry.


To recap the method:
  • first, decide what you want to do
  • then, max your armor and put ECM on if the chassis can carry it
  • throw in a placeholder engine and put in guns
  • add ammo and secondary equipment
  • up the engine to a speed you want, and adjust secondary equipment (like heat sinks, targeting computers, etc) as needed.
  • Check the Weapon Lab to make sure you're not overheating in 10 seconds of full combat
  • Test and make adjustments as needed
This is the general outline for "how to build 'Mechs" in MWO. It's a guide, not a requirement, but you can see the principles of what you're doing.




PS: Also, be wary of putting too much armor on your rear torsos. Generally as much armor as possible needs to be shifted front to deal with threats you can see and mitigate. Shift armor back if you're getting killed from behind too much, but don't go higher than 7-8 CT with a Medium. Always analyze and adjust your builds as needed to keep up with the changing pace of the battlefield - and your own developing skills.

Edit: screwed up the final build by forgetting to re-add Ferro-Fibrous Armor. Build and advice corrected.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 January 2017 - 05:50 PM.


#43 Justin Kell

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 05:08 PM

That's the best guide I've seen to basic mechbuilding. I'm going to follow that.

Ok. Time for another dumb question. What does it mean when the leader says "push" I take that to mean a rush at whatever position we're going after. So when I hear that, I move that direction firing all the way.

However, my teammates usually stay in cover and barely move forward, if at all. Am I doing something wrong, or misunderstanding "push?"

#44 Flak Kannon

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 05:26 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 04 January 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

That's the best guide I've seen to basic mechbuilding. I'm going to follow that.

Ok. Time for another dumb question. What does it mean when the leader says "push" I take that to mean a rush at whatever position we're going after. So when I hear that, I move that direction firing all the way.

However, my teammates usually stay in cover and barely move forward, if at all. Am I doing something wrong, or misunderstanding "push?"



'Push' means, as a combined force, move in on their remaining force(s). Sometimes it's best to be 1st Mech in the push if you are fresh, or wait until several mechs are in front if your heavily damaged.

I often lead my drops through text, and when I feel its time to push I say push. I never push second, if I say push, I lead the push regardless of my health.

But... you are sentient, and if someone says PUSH, and it apprears that is a bad idea.. do not go. Again that's situational awareness in play.

I've played this game long enough, and at a high enough level to NEVER say 'push' unless its a SURE thing.


Enjoi

#45 WolvesX

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 06:27 PM

Hey mate!

I don't know if you still reading this but K/D is not important. What is importent is, do you enjoy the game, as long as you do, all is fine.

This build here helped me very, very much http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5f2f8249e4f9890

Edited by WolvesX, 04 January 2017 - 06:30 PM.


#46 Tesunie

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 06:32 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 04 January 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

That's the best guide I've seen to basic mechbuilding. I'm going to follow that.

Ok. Time for another dumb question. What does it mean when the leader says "push" I take that to mean a rush at whatever position we're going after. So when I hear that, I move that direction firing all the way.

However, my teammates usually stay in cover and barely move forward, if at all. Am I doing something wrong, or misunderstanding "push?"


If you are in PUGlandia (Quick Play/solo queue), people will say to push. You are absolutely correct on what the term means and it's application. However... Some people will call for a push, and then stand 500-1000m away to watch their team (or a few people who listened) rush into the enemy and "push" the enemy a little so they could get a few more shots.

Some people (not all) will abuse the call to push, and will do so to either sabotage their team (We aren't going to win this match, lets end this quick "everyone push") or even to "force" their teammates to get locks for them (I has LRMs, "push". Thanks for the locks as I hide behind this cover). You might even have someone call a push so that they can get a couple targets to snipe at long ranges (I'm pushing with you, honest. My weapons are there with you...).

If you were part of a group, and they call a push, it can actually have meaning. Even in some cases with solo play, calling a push can be a good thing (and following through on said call). Sometimes, someone may even call a push, they are correct in that call, but as soon as anything hits their teammates, they fade back into the cover leaving those who did push out and on their own...

In the end, it's your choice to decide if you push or not. Try to do it "with" your teammates. I know I've had many times where I pushed and was left alone, or I looked at the call to push and thought "not on my own I wont, you push first and I'll happily follow".

#47 DJ Sikosis

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 09:22 PM

I wouldn't worry ... I've put 243 hours into this game, read forums daily, watch videos (NGNG / Kanajashi, etc) and I still suck.

#48 Xaat Xuun

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 12:08 AM

View PostJustin Kell, on 04 January 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

That's the best guide I've seen to basic mechbuilding. I'm going to follow that.

Ok. Time for another dumb question. What does it mean when the leader says "push" I take that to mean a rush at whatever position we're going after. So when I hear that, I move that direction firing all the way.

However, my teammates usually stay in cover and barely move forward, if at all. Am I doing something wrong, or misunderstanding "push?"


you understand correct the "Push" call, and even had the experience of a bad push.
What Tesunie mentions here is all true. not much I could add to it, maybe a couple situational things but it's still pretty much covered in Tesunie post

If you're solo PuG, and the team is fairly tight grouped and a push is called, good chance it'll be a good push, but if a push is called, and you notice team spread all over, it's a bad call. Generally a call to group up for a push is called before the "Push" Call.

View PostTesunie, on 04 January 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:


If you are in PUGlandia (Quick Play/solo queue), people will say to push. You are absolutely correct on what the term means and it's application. However... Some people will call for a push, and then stand 500-1000m away to watch their team (or a few people who listened) rush into the enemy and "push" the enemy a little so they could get a few more shots.

Some people (not all) will abuse the call to push, and will do so to either sabotage their team (We aren't going to win this match, lets end this quick "everyone push") or even to "force" their teammates to get locks for them (I has LRMs, "push". Thanks for the locks as I hide behind this cover). You might even have someone call a push so that they can get a couple targets to snipe at long ranges (I'm pushing with you, honest. My weapons are there with you...).

If you were part of a group, and they call a push, it can actually have meaning. Even in some cases with solo play, calling a push can be a good thing (and following through on said call). Sometimes, someone may even call a push, they are correct in that call, but as soon as anything hits their teammates, they fade back into the cover leaving those who did push out and on their own...

In the end, it's your choice to decide if you push or not. Try to do it "with" your teammates. I know I've had many times where I pushed and was left alone, or I looked at the call to push and thought "not on my own I wont, you push first and I'll happily follow".


#49 GunSlingerTat

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 03:56 AM

Excellent advice in this thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. Posted Image
K/D doesn't matter at all (at least to me or the guys that I play the game with), we just want to win the match.

Edited by GunSlingerTat, 05 January 2017 - 03:58 AM.


#50 SnagaDance

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:30 AM

Whenever a call for a push is made I look at the name of the one making the call and I then check out what mech that person is using and where that person is.

If that person is not with the group I won't heed the call. (re. lrm-boats and snipers calling for pushes)

If that person is not using a Heavy or Assault I won't heed the call

A person calling for the push should always lead by example and be the first one to push (exception if you actually know the player as a good player with good awareness). Too often in PUGlandia a push is called for by some idiot that just needlesly exposed his mech to half the enemy team and got shot up.

I love leading a push in my Atlas, I don't care if I die, if it truly was a good push that helped us gain victory then I'm satisfied. When I push and get left on my own...... I shrug and move on thinking "Pugs will be Pugs". Posted Image

#51 Tesunie

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:57 AM

View PostSnagaDance, on 05 January 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

If that person is not using a Heavy or Assault I won't heed the call


I love leading a push in my Atlas, I don't care if I die, if it truly was a good push that helped us gain victory then I'm satisfied.


Don't ignore a reasonable medium mech pilot... Sometimes... But I get what you mean. A push being called by a light (even if with the group) will be unlikely to be as committed as a push called for by an assault (because once the assault starts, they aren't backing out).

I can recall a couple matches in my Atlas where a push was called into the center of old Terra Therma. Because I didn't back down in my Atlas (we had to breach that center to win), I gave my entire team a win (well, the team worked together for the win, but you get what I mean). Although my Atlas did not survive, it provided the cover the rest of my team needed to do what they needed to get done.

Was actually a wonderful match that I'm recalling (wished I could have recorded that one), and I was actually thanked for not trying to back out (and clogging everything) of the charge... It's always nice when a push works. Posted Image

#52 SnagaDance

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 10:16 AM

I can remember a similar match on old Terra Terma in the center. Awesome when it worked.

Sometimes I help initiate a push when I'm in a Light by announcing "Get ready to push guys, I'm going to squirrel them and make them focus on me". Though I find it extra disappointing if the team doesn't push after driving 5-6 enemy mechs crazy and ultimately dying.

#53 TooDumbToQuit

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 11:01 AM

Grrrrr, I put a post here this morning...or so I thought. I hate computers.

#54 Justin Kell

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 11:33 AM

Wow. this is like my own personal tutorial thread. :)

I have another question, stemming from a match I just got blown up in. :)

What do you do when you have a short-range mech (in this case a hunchback IIC with 2 Ultra AC20s and 2 er-medium lasers) and you can't get close to the enemy position?

In this case we were playing grim plexus. there was plenty of cover where I was, but the only way to get close to the enemy was to cross a big clearing with no cover. the enemy was shooting ppc, missiles and gauss rifles everywhere.

How can I be useful to my team in that situation?

#55 Flak Kannon

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 03:09 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 05 January 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Wow. this is like my own personal tutorial thread. Posted Image

I have another question, stemming from a match I just got blown up in. Posted Image

What do you do when you have a short-range mech (in this case a hunchback IIC with 2 Ultra AC20s and 2 er-medium lasers) and you can't get close to the enemy position?

In this case we were playing grim plexus. there was plenty of cover where I was, but the only way to get close to the enemy was to cross a big clearing with no cover. the enemy was shooting ppc, missiles and gauss rifles everywhere.

How can I be useful to my team in that situation?


So..


Usually one of two things will happen. Your team will get frustrated and start to push, or the other team will get frustrated and start to push.


But know that EVERY Single game ends within 200-300 meter distance from each other and often closer. So... patience is the key. With the load out you've mentioned, I gather your speed can't be more than 65 kph or so. So... there there should be NO attempt by 'you' to side flank. Too slow.

Stay with your bigs until either 'they' push or the other team does. It will happen.

But in the mean time, watch your bigs backs from sneaky enemies trying to rear flank you.

Your massive DPS due to those dual Ac20s at the end can really swing the tide, but if your too banged up early from 'peeking' or rushing them, your no use, and most especially if your dead early.

Let the snipers snipe, and patiently drink your tea, coffee, beer, kombucha,... whatever.

Just save your armor in that situation. You could build it out as a Uac10 Uac20 mech to have some 400-500 meter ability, or go Dual Uac5s for a lot of range. ... or 1 Guass 1 LPL, 1 MPL for a bit ofr mixed range.,...

But it is fun to squash with Dual Uac20s.. just gotta be really patient.



Enjoi

Edited by Flak Kannon, 05 January 2017 - 03:10 PM.


#56 Justin Kell

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 05:27 PM

That's great advice! Thanks!!

I just experienced something really weird. Had a skirmish in the mining collective. I may have been the most experienced player on our team. some guy who's been playing a week took command of the unit. Everybody was typing "what do we do!" "lead us". and stuff like that. It was a total slaughter.

#57 Void Angel

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 05:45 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 05 January 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Wow. this is like my own personal tutorial thread. Posted Image

I have another question, stemming from a match I just got blown up in. Posted Image

What do you do when you have a short-range mech (in this case a hunchback IIC with 2 Ultra AC20s and 2 er-medium lasers) and you can't get close to the enemy position?

In this case we were playing grim plexus. there was plenty of cover where I was, but the only way to get close to the enemy was to cross a big clearing with no cover. the enemy was shooting ppc, missiles and gauss rifles everywhere.

How can I be useful to my team in that situation?

Uh, this is your own personal tutorial forum section. That's literally what we're here for.

As for your situation, Flak's analysis and advice are decent, but I have to correct you on one thing - there is always a way to close with the enemy without crossing a kill zone. You have to make a judgement call as to whether or not you have time to do it with your build - and whether or not you can escape if discovered. If you were using That Sample Build from my 'mech building post, you'll have enough speed and agility to range a bit out from the main group if you need to. This will give you the freedom to move around a bit and position yourself to blast people (also remember that you only need to clear your AC hardpoints; this is one of the HBK-IIC's strengths.)

Still and all, it's often apparent that your teammates have all brought long-range guns and LRMs to the fight, and they're not going to move until they win that long-range duel phase - or the enemy comes for them in their hiding holes. In that instance, you have to do pretty much what Flak says - stay in cover, actively monitor the battle in order to respond to any close-range threats, and just wait till the Camper Kids find manhood.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 January 2017 - 05:51 PM.


#58 Tesunie

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 05:50 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 05 January 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

That's great advice! Thanks!!

I just experienced something really weird. Had a skirmish in the mining collective. I may have been the most experienced player on our team. some guy who's been playing a week took command of the unit. Everybody was typing "what do we do!" "lead us". and stuff like that. It was a total slaughter.


Warning: Just because someone "took command" via the in game interface, don't expect them to actually "take command". Some people do this just to have the star next to their name. Some do it to "make noises" and will spam it (because it's annoying and they know it). Some will to it to shift the lances around (be it to annoy people, or to place themselves in the same lance of a familiar name/friend).

Most people don't know or don't use the advanced options of the commander. Not that they typically are all that useful (or quick) to use anyway...

#59 Void Angel

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 05:52 PM

PS: I forgot to re-add Ferro-Fibrous armor to that build. I've corrected the original post and added a link to the proper version of the build.

#60 Void Angel

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:16 PM

View PostJustin Kell, on 05 January 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

That's great advice! Thanks!! I just experienced something really weird. Had a skirmish in the mining collective. I may have been the most experienced player on our team. some guy who's been playing a week took command of the unit. Everybody was typing "what do we do!" "lead us". and stuff like that. It was a total slaughter.

Well, at least he tried. What you (and everyone else) need to do is figure out the critical failure(s) that led to that loss in order to avoid them after.

Speaking of... have you read Tactics 101? I've also put together a couple of forum guides (in my signature) in an attempt to establish some working principles for cooperation and reasonable aggression in tactics.





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