258 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

DavidStarr, on 14 January 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Which is how, exactly? No matter what, someone of the 12 players will peek out of cover for long enough, and get spotted, and get lurmed. Not to mention that with my more recent approach to LRMing I will be spotting and TAGging him myself.

I give you credit for at least bring TAG and trying to get your own locks.

This discussion is about faction play though. This means IS vs Clans and unless you are farming pugs, they will be playing to their range where even if they were out in the open when you fired, they'll be long gone by the time you'r missiles arrive...

So still, heavy LRM usage is merely a act of Darwinism.

[TwoPair]

Your right about that if your stupid enough to engage at 800+ meters. For faction warfare I cant envision a successful mech build relying on LRM's as the main dmg component.

I'm playing only pugs at the moment, but when I was FW I routinely brought out my victor with 3 ERLL and an LRM 15 or LRM 10 w/ NARC.

Never had a problem with inflicting dmg / kills with her. Some times swapped the ERLL's out for LL to see if I could find a significant heat difference. Still use the build in PUGs and still see good success with it.

However the OP for this thread was don't bring LRM's period. It really should have been don't bring LRM's unless you know what the @#$% your doing with them.

Good LRMERs know how to use terrain to engage targets that are extremely dangerous with minimal exposure..... AKA quad UAC 10 Kodiaks.

You can talk about the advantages in dmg of direct fire, but ultimately that comes down to trading armor. The advantage of LRMS is that well used, (and it is terrain and situation dependent) LRMS allow you to attack an opponent you could never win a normal trade with and minimize your exposure to insane burst damage.

Can an entire team use LRMS and come out on top..... absolutely not. That be like saying can the US army use nothing but mortars and win a war.

[Albino Boo]

DavidStarr, on 14 January 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Yet I get more kills in CPLT-C4 than most other mechs (not all, but most). Quite possibly more component destructions as well.


Which is how, exactly? No matter what, someone of the 12 players will peek out of cover for long enough, and get spotted, and get lurmed. Not to mention that with my more recent approach to LRMing I will be spotting and TAGging him myself.

Please read the post that I wrote. You will spread damage over the front of mech and they will be hitting your ct. 3 or 4 alphas and you will be dead. Direct fire kills quicker. In addition people in higher tiers have made 1000s of more drops than you and won't peek long enough for you to get lock. I'm far from the best player but I have done over 250k damage with a cERPPC with a hit rate of 76%. That practice means I don't even have to think about aiming and can comfortably hit the CT at over 1000m on a moving heavy or assault.

[MischiefSC]

I'd love it if some of the people who 'understand how to use LRMs' could go ahead and teach all the comp players and comp teams and top tier FW teams and players. I'd love to see that.

Please, go rockstar it out in MRBC/RHoD with LRM decks. Go face-roll EVIL, KCom, DERP et al with mixed LRM decks and spotters and please, please go prove every single top tiered player wrong with how effective mixed LRMs into your loadout are.

It's really simple. If you're shooting at someone then someone is getting shot at to get you that lock. If you're not showing yourself when your team does then the enemy is shooting 12 v 11, increasing the amount of focused fire your teammates are getting. That focused fire, being direct fire, is concentrated and effective. The damage you are doing with LRMs absolutely is not. The tonnage you're wasting on LRMs in your mixed loadout not only drives you to take less turns on the front line but is wasted tonnage that could be used on a direct fire loadout, translating into more total useful damage and more time cycling up with your teammates.

What does and does not work is proven in gameplay. If LRMs, either boated or mixed, was actually good then that's exactly what the top tier players and teams would take. It's not, it's flat out inferior to direct fire. There are health reasons that people take LRMs because they literally can't aim with direct fire - I get that, totally different thing.

Otherwise if you're saying LRMs are good 'when used correctly' how about you go crush the top performing players with that LRM loadout. FW or otherwise. Until then the argument falls flat on its face.

Edited by MischiefSC, 15 January 2017 - 02:27 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

How many threads are the same as this one. I know people want to try and explain it but either they figure it out for them selves like all the good players or they stay in potato land where the lurms belong.

Lets hope this doesnt get to the same 25+ pages like the last one I saw.

[Davegt27]

when I think of LRMs I think of this scene from Star Trek


PGI puts LRM weapons in the game and tells people that they do so and so damage
but its mostly a deception you be lucky to do anything with the dang LRMs
sure they will let them work sometimes for some people but overall they are like throwing rain

LRMs don't work because PGI does not want them to work, why does PGI not want them to work its
because people (try hards) cry if they do

[Albino Boo]

Davegt27, on 15 January 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

when I think of LRMs I think of this scene from Star Trek


PGI puts LRM weapons in the game and tells people that they do so and so damage
but its mostly a deception you be lucky to do anything with the dang LRMs
sure they will let them work sometimes for some people but overall they are like throwing rain

LRMs don't work because PGI does not want them to work, why does PGI not want them to work its
because people (try hards) cry if they do

If you rework lrms so that they are viable choice in in tier 1 they will be massively over powered in tier 4-5. PGI doesn't balance for T1-T2 only.

[Starbomber109]

Albino Boo, on 15 January 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

If you rework lrms so that they are viable choice in in tier 1 they will be massively over powered in tier 4-5. PGI doesn't balance for T1-T2 only.

Or maybe LRMs are a situational weapon? The difference between T1-2 pilots and tier 4-5 pilots is the ability to recognize those situations, and put themselves into places where LRMs won't be effective. Also Tier1 players tend to expose themselves for shorter periods of time unless they have a large advantage. This means less time for an LRM boat to obtain a lock. While lower skilled players tend to try and face tank an enemy (especially if they have weapons with high rates of fire) leaving them exposed for longer.

[stalima]

Some people seem to be working out IS vs clan in the completely wrong way:

"Clan is better because it can equip way more ammo"

this statement is heavily false as it isnt simply about the amount of ammo you can store... for example an LRM 5 is NOT better than an LRM 20 just because it can equip a good 8 tons of ammo before the LRM 20 is even equipped due to it simply not putting out enough damage fast enough.

In this regard clan and IS LRMs are about equal since the clans will need to equip additional heat sinks for every extra ton the IS waste on big weapons if they wish to actually use a backup... otherwise the clan mech will simply have more ammo than it can reasonably use and potentially become an explosive liability because of it.

In terms of effectiveness IS LRMs are generally better at burst LRMing while clans are better at suppresive LRMing.

[Starbomber109]

On a maybe off topic note: We can all agree that LRMs are sub optimal on almost every map. And downright useless on a few. But, if we can't bring LRMs, can we bring AMS? I find clan LRMs highly annoying but cannot bring myself to spare the 1.5 to 2 tons it would take to reduce the incoming fire. Also we are IS, we cannot take 3 hellbringers in every drop, the IS doesn't even have a respectable ECM heavy, the IS ECM mechs are usually lights or mediums (with a couple of assaults as special cases)

Is AMS worth it? Because I've been on the reviving end of clan LRMs and it's irritating.

Edited by Starbomber109, 17 January 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Starbomber109, on 17 January 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

On a maybe off topic note: We can all agree that LRMs are sub optimal on almost every map. And downright useless on a few. But, if we can't bring LRMs, can we bring AMS? I find clan LRMs highly annoying but cannot bring myself to spare the 1.5 to 2 tons it would take to reduce the incoming fire. Also we are IS, we cannot take 3 hellbringers in every drop, the IS doesn't even have a respectable ECM heavy, the IS ECM mechs are usually lights or mediums (with a couple of assaults as special cases)

Is AMS worth it? Because I've been on the reviving end of clan LRMs and it's irritating.

Yes. I run AMS on 2 or 3 mechs in my deck and it's significant. 1 ton of ammo is fine - you should be playing aggressive. If you or the LRM boats are not dead before you empty 1 ton of ammo you're doing it wrong. If there's 4 AMS on your team every drop you're eliminating 1-3 enemy mechs (depending on the shrubbery on the other team) each wave before the firing really starts.

[MovinTarget]

MischiefSC, on 17 January 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes. I run AMS on 2 or 3 mechs in my deck and it's significant. 1 ton of ammo is fine - you should be playing aggressive. If you or the LRM boats are not dead before you empty 1 ton of ammo you're doing it wrong. If there's 4 AMS on your team every drop you're eliminating 1-3 enemy mechs (depending on the shrubbery on the other team) each wave before the firing really starts.

Think of it this way, you need enough AMS to close the distance without significant damage. Not for trading, not for sniping...

to.get.up.close.and.personal.

Any other plan is letting the LRMs win even if they don't damage you much... the longer they keep you from getting up in their grill the more time they have to set firing lines and stuff. Too much ammo and you are burning space better used for other weapons.

Most games where I've seen heavy LRM use, the lurming team usually starts out strong (typically on defense) and then sputters by the end of the second wave.

Why? because *typically* pug lurmers stick in the back and use the armor and locks of their teammates who may put up a good fight initially, but once they get rolled, the lurmers get rolled, and they keep getting pushed back further and unable to set up like they did for the first wave...

But okay, every once in a while, the lurms win without coordination, just like every once in a while a kid gets chemicals in his eyes and goes blind, only to gain awesome hyper-senses otherwise... or gets bitten by a radioactive spider and...

...you get the point. If you want to chase the "maybes" you can drop solo lrms and *maybe* it will work out for you. Just like the guys that sit back and snipe from beyond optimal range, thinking a red reticule means they are doing good dmg.

In reality, no one style will always win for you, but some will serve you better in a universal sense than others.

Edited by MovinTarget, 17 January 2017 - 05:16 PM.

[Stargazzer811]

Well as Starbomber109 said LRMs are very situational weapons and yes, they are only good on some maps. Most maps have a lot of terrain and such that prevents their use unless being used by someone who works with them constantly. I consistently work with LRMs, and have several mechs with them. My T-Bolt TDR-5S, Timber Wolf C modified, my Ebon Jag C (4 LRM-20 racks), my Adder, and yes, even one of my two King Crabs, my KGC-0000 model. Most people, in fact some of you who have commented here, have gotten on my arse time and again for bringing LRMs.

Rant On As I've politely said in the past, I don't care what you think about LRMs, I'm bringing them anyway. The difference is I at least try to get my own locks, which causes me to take some hits from the enemy thus adding to the whole ******** "Sharing Armor" BS that everyone is so on about. Sure direct fire kills faster, but knowing how to use LRMs, softening up enemy mechs by weakening armor or exploiting already breached armor, that's where they come in handy.

A lot of people in MWO say LRMs are worthless but honestly, if you're gonna think that, you should uninstall the game. Because any actual fan of Battletech, even if they are not fond of LRMs, knows their worth something. LRMs exist, so you all who hate them must learn to deal with that fact and move on. Rant Off

Another good point is the IS lacks many heavier mechs with ECM. The Cataphract CTF-0XP however can mount ECM, even if it can't mount super good weapons load (and it can't, trust me, I owned one). The biggest point I want to make however is that light pilots with ECM always run off at the start of a match and die, thinking the ECM will allow them to core every enemy mech in the back. IS Light pilots need to learn to stick to the group if they have ECM and only scout as needed. Same goes for Clan lights as well. Most of all, many many mechs have AMS hardpoints. I don't use AMS much as it's a whole ton or so better spent on armor. That said, even one AMS unit and 1000 rds can cut a LRM-20 volley down by perhaps a half at most without using too much ammo.

We also have lights and mediums on both sides that carry a lot of AMS (Clan Nova and Kit Fox, Panther for IS can carry 2 as well), at least 2 AMS units at once. Perhaps more people should bring ECM and AMS instead of whining about LRMs.

[Carl Vickers]

Avalon91211, on 17 January 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Rant On As I've politely said in the past, I don't care what you think about LRMs, I'm bringing them anyway. The difference is I at least try to get my own locks, which causes me to take some hits from the enemy thus adding to the whole ******** "Sharing Armor" BS that everyone is so on about. Sure direct fire kills faster, but knowing how to use LRMs, softening up enemy mechs by weakening armor or exploiting already breached armor, that's where they come in handy.

A lot of people in MWO say LRMs are worthless but honestly, if you're gonna think that, you should uninstall the game. Because any actual fan of Battletech, even if they are not fond of LRMs, knows their worth something. LRMs exist, so you all who hate them must learn to deal with that fact and move on. Rant Off

Rant on. Stick to QP then. Lurms are worthless in a game mode where focus fire is king, sand blasting may work every now and again but direct fire is proven to work every time, provided you can aim. I am a huge fan of BT and while lurms make work in TT they are very much sub par in MWO, which btw is a game based on BT. Rant off.

[VitriolicViolet]

basically lrms can deal damage but are still inferior. someone who is 'good' with lrms will generally be better with direct fire, so in a competitive, MM free enviroment wouldnt you want to take whats most effective? Most people seem to treat CW like its another bigger QP when it isnt and wasnt meant to be. it was intended to be a competitive game mode. call it 'try hard' or 'meta-whoring' or whatever but that was the intention. so naturally some of the people who play it would rather if you bring what is actually, factually, superior.

While lrms do exist and we unfortunately have to deal with it just know that if you bring them its like leaving half the ammo of your direct fire mechs out cause you felt like it. it weakens you and thus the team. Also 'Sharing Armor' is not BS in the slightest whoever can do that the best and retain mobility to play to their particular range will nearly always win.

[Trenchbird]

I personally find myself still bringing LRM-5s to use on my Mauler as backup weapons, while I try to line up my twin Gauss shots and/or get to the front line.

Do I think LRM boating is annoying? Sure. Do I see a point? Yeah. IS LRM boats may be inefficient compared to Clan LRM boats, but the added firepower is nice when I'm TAGging some poor Clanner in his fancy Ebon Jaguar in the middle of a slugfest and PUGgie McGee over there has an LRM stalker, all too happy to try to "steal my kill".

[General Solo]

Just a thought

Most likely people gonna brings Lerm no matter what you do or say.

So bring some narc if your part of a group
Not for your group but for the pugs

Its what I do to make use of my lerm pugs (1 mech narc/lerm plus 3 meta mechs)

This way my pug allies become assets in stead of weight
I basically narc the ecm enemies first
Then on VOIP tell the pugs

ALPHA NARCED, ALL LERMS ON ALPHA

More often than not ALPHA cops a metric sheet ton of lerms

If you can't change them, find a way to make use of them and make them useful.

Sure you group gonna be one meta mech down per wave to provide narc support, but thats better than having 50% of your teams firepower unavailable coz they can't fire em lerms

Also maybe 1 or 2 waves of narc support will give your team enough of a advantage that narc ain't needed on wave 3 and 4 and you can go meta instead

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 17 January 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

OZHomerOZ, on 17 January 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Just a thought

Most likely people gonna brings Lerm no matter what you do or say.

So bring some narc if your part of a group
Not for your group but for the pugs

Its what I do to make use of my lerm pugs (1 mech narc/lerm plus 3 meta mechs)

This way my pug allies become assets in stead of weight
I basically narc the ecm enemies first
Then on VOIP tell the pugs

ALPHA NARCED, ALL LERMS ON ALPHA

More often than not ALPHA cops a metric sheet ton of lerms

If you can't change them, find a way to make use of them and make them useful.

Sure you group gonna be one meta mech down per wave to provide narc support, but thats better than having 50% of your teams firepower unavailable coz they can't fire em lerms

Also maybe 1 or 2 waves of narc support will give your team enough of a advantage that narc ain't needed on wave 3 and 4 and you can go meta instead

Not going to waste tonnage helping someone be bad. I have to carry all the harder as it is and I can't shoulder the pugweight of lurming bads unless I'm full meta and on point, especially pugging. I just accept that a couple of my teammates are largely worthless, don't/won't understand how the game works and will probably blame their lower than average score and W/L while they sandbag their team match after match with bad robbits.

Bads gonna bad and have excuses why their being bad is justified. Everyone else will just carry them and try to ignore it when they accuse everyone else of hax, or say "tryhard" like being good or putting effort into something is an insult.

That's the reality of the game.

[Carl Vickers]

MischiefSC, on 17 January 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Not going to waste tonnage helping someone be bad. I have to carry all the harder as it is and I can't shoulder the pugweight of lurming bads unless I'm full meta and on point, especially pugging. I just accept that a couple of my teammates are largely worthless, don't/won't understand how the game works and will probably blame their lower than average score and W/L while they sandbag their team match after match with bad robbits.

Bads gonna bad and have excuses why their being bad is justified. Everyone else will just carry them and try to ignore it when they accuse everyone else of hax, or say "tryhard" like being good or putting effort into something is an insult.

That's the reality of the game.

[-Ramrod-]

God forbid you use a weapon system available in the game. LRM's take quite a bit of skill. And they are extremely effective. Just because not everyone brings Gauss/PPC meta builds doesn't mean they should be bashed for it. This game is about fun first and foremost. I'd rather deal with an LRM boat than a Gauss/PPC "easy mode" meta build. They still need to nerf PPC range btw. In the canon they have less range than a Gauss Rifle.