85 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

WAIT. Don't just start posting your long diatribe on this and that. I'm not referring to faction balance. Clan versus IS is out of wack. But I'm talking about balance among the low end and high end of the spectrum.

How do we reduced the gap between a potato mech and a meta mech? There's always going to be a gap. But how can we make it smaller?

Firepower plays a big role in balance. But so does pin point damage and time on target. Then there's the builds that get by on high DPS. And of course high mounted weapons.

They tried to address laservomit with laser range lockon mechanic. But that went over poorly and of course the meta has expanded since.

Energy Draw tried to penalize alphas above 30 damage with extra heat. People really hated this idea.

I personally thought it could use work, but potentially bring up the value of lower end mechs since they can't break 30 damage as easily. Granted larger mechs can break 30 and just bring extra heatsinks, but they're having to pay more for that extra.

Obviously there's stuff like dual gauss. PPCs. AC5 boating. They're all not as effected by this system. But you could change the way the energy recharges, make it recharge slower when using gauss or PPCs. Penalize ballistics with extra energy cost when firing multiple at a certain number.

Originally I liked this idea for reducing time to kill. But now I feel like the better reason is to bring what's optimal firepower/dps to a level more obtainable by lower weight mechs and mechs with limited hard points.

[nehebkau]

Make IS XL engines act EXACTLY the same as clan XL engines -- no changes to cost, or crit spots taken.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

nehebkau, on 11 January 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Make IS XL engines act EXACTLY the same as clan XL engines -- no changes to cost, or crit spots taken.

>OP specifically states this isn't about IS vs Clan
>First post is about IS vs Clan XL

Yep I'm on MWO forums.

[RestosIII]

'gets ready to go on an extremely long rant about every single thing that I want changed about the game for balance'

MechaBattler, on 11 January 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

WAIT. Don't just start posting your long diatribe on this and that. I'm not referring to faction balance. Clan versus IS is out of wack. But I'm talking about balance among the low end and high end of the spectrum.

I can't go on my rant if we leave IS vs Clan tech balance out of the equation. Oh well.

[Mcgral18]

Quirks


It's that simple
Trash robots will be trash, until they aren't. They need buffs to account for their deficiencies, such as horrendous hitboxes or geometry (IS&A quirks) or tiny loadout (weapon quirks)


You can quirk for low mounts, you can quirk for low amount

You can quirk robots to go from Trash Tier to God Tier, you just need the right amount of GodQuirks




Of course, that's the final step of balance. Fix the Macro balance between factions, and then weight classes (at the top of their respective classes) then you balance the individual robots and weapons
And then you bring in quirks, for those robots who simply cannot be saved by other means




TD:DR?
Give Trash Tier robots God Quirks
Do not give GodRobots GodQuirks (which HAS happened at least twice, by the way)

[nehebkau]

Dakota1000, on 11 January 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

>OP specifically states this isn't about IS vs Clan
>First post is about IS vs Clan XL

Yep I'm on MWO forums.

I stated it more for affect -- meaning the balance issues in this game ARE IS vs. Clan, not weapon vs weapon or loadout vs loadout. The weapon systems are close to balanced with the tradeoffs on heat, range, crit spots, weight. THE ONLY imbalance in the game that needs to be addressed is the clan XL vs IS XL. Low end or high end is DIRECTLY affected by this issue. Want a potato build? Any mediocre or lower skill IS player with an XL engine in a heavy or assault with any weapon load out.

Lets not forget that, usually, new players go IS for their first few mechs....which is why the issue is so important.

Yep, I can't see the forest for the trees.

Edited by nehebkau, 11 January 2017 - 08:47 PM.

[Davegt27]

don't complain you will only makes things worse (old ANG proverb)

[Kangarad]

so no IS vs clan balance? but all we have ingame is IS and clan mechs.

know what?`scrap em all. and give every player an Ambassador then lock the equipment of said mech, and call it a day. 100% balanced. I did the impossible.

heck it even fits into the time line.

Edited by Kangarad, 11 January 2017 - 09:01 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Mcgral18, on 11 January 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

Quirks


It's that simple
Trash robots will be trash, until they aren't. They need buffs to account for their deficiencies, such as horrendous hitboxes or geometry (IS&A quirks) or tiny loadout (weapon quirks)


You can quirk for low mounts, you can quirk for low amount

You can quirk robots to go from Trash Tier to God Tier, you just need the right amount of GodQuirks




Of course, that's the final step of balance. Fix the Macro balance between factions, and then weight classes (at the top of their respective classes) then you balance the individual robots and weapons
And then you bring in quirks, for those robots who simply cannot be saved by other means




TD:DR?
Give Trash Tier robots God Quirks
Do not give GodRobots GodQuirks (which HAS happened at least twice, by the way)

But what about the Vindicator? It has a ton of quirks. Performance, armor, weapon quirks, and even rate of loss quirk which is something mostly used on lights. It's still not considered as good as the Blackjack.

Or we get situations where mechs have like 50% weapon reduction on Gauss rifle.

Isn't it more that the range that we have to buff them to is too high? If this was before the Clans, quirks would have been great. It would have completely made up for deficiencies. But the damage values we're dealing with now are so much higher. That's why the quirks were as high as they were and why after toning them down balance has been skewed.

[Navy Sixes]

RestosIII, on 11 January 2017 - 08:35 PM, said:

I give you the like not only for your words, but also for your Cleese.

[Composite Armour]

Honestly, I think maps are the root of a good deal of problems. Every map has ridgelines and large LOS. You're always going to be able to take better advantage of the map in a 4 gauss Kodiak than a brawling Atlas.

A few good, flat, urban maps tossed in would be interesting to see. Maps where you're not punished for simply having low-mounted weapons and are able to get to engagement distance in a brawler without having to wait for 10 mins or try and brave a sniper firing line.

[Hobbles v]

Update all the stock builds. 90% of them are next to useless. They don't even need to be pure meta, just display some kind of competent mech building practices that point potatoes in the right direction rather than a slow engine, undergunned, 4 different weapon velocities mech with no ammo.

For the diehard lore heads give every mech a "lore mode" where it's lore load out can be run without having to buy the parts. (Kinda like a trial mech) make sure it clearly states lore load outs are trash to keep potatoes out of them.

[RestosIII]

Hobbles v, on 11 January 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

Update all the stock builds. 90% of them are next to useless. They don't even need to be pure meta, just display some kind of competent mech building practices that point potatoes in the right direction rather than a slow engine, undergunned, 4 different weapon velocities mech with no ammo.

Now hold it, if you really think you're going to mess with my lore loadouts and-

Hobbles v, on 11 January 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

For the diehard lore heads give every mech a "lore mode" where it's lore load out can be run without having to buy the parts. (Kinda like a trial mech) make sure it clearly states lore load outs are trash to keep potatoes out of them.

Oh. Okay.



I approve, but only on the condition that it doesn't get out of hand, and maybe sticks to trial mech optimization levels, or a little lower. (Assuming this even needs to get changed, which I don't see any real reason for, but, w.e.)

Edited by RestosIII, 11 January 2017 - 09:25 PM.

[El Bandito]

Got my first Ghost Drop as a Clanner and the match wait time in CW is longer than ever. Perhaps now PGI will learn that mere tonnage difference will not remedy the imbalance existing between factions.


*edit* Aaand we had to cancel the search twice because it is taking unacceptable amount of time to find matches.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 January 2017 - 09:56 PM.

[Bombast]

Well, we can quirk mechs with poor hitboxes (Or, in the case of the skill tree, give them more powerful skills).

Or we can allow crit splitting for IS chassis.

How else can you balance mechs? Stuff like energy draw isn't really a balancing mechanism - It's a gameplay change that affects all mechs, good or bad. The only way to balance bad mechs against good ones is to make the bad ones less bad. And if you can't change hit boxes, and you can't change hard points, well... quirks/uber skills are where it's at.

#EquippableLongTomsOrIRiot

[Mcgral18]

MechaBattler, on 11 January 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

But what about the Vindicator? It has a ton of quirks. Performance, armor, weapon quirks, and even rate of loss quirk which is something mostly used on lights. It's still not considered as good as the Blackjack.

Or we get situations where mechs have like 50% weapon reduction on Gauss rifle.

Isn't it more that the range that we have to buff them to is too high? If this was before the Clans, quirks would have been great. It would have completely made up for deficiencies. But the damage values we're dealing with now are so much higher. That's why the quirks were as high as they were and why after toning them down balance has been skewed.

Which is why quirks come after that, but you specifically said not to mention THAT
It just needs more quirks, and more importantly: USEFUL quirks
Not all are equal


The BJ3 gets almost identical weapon quirks to the Vindi, only the Vindi gets a bit more armour
That amount of Armour doesn't make up for the Ape mounts and otherwise bad geo
The BJ also used to have greater durability than the Vindi does (+22, double)


You could start with keeping the weapon quirks, but giving the Vindi +30
Yep, that's a lot of HP, but the Vindi has trouble shooting things

[Johnny Z]

I already made a few replies about this but if anyone didn't see, removing skill bonuses from all XL engines seems like a great move.

This could potentially make the standard engine faster than an XL engine at the cost of a huge amount of tonnage.

Making the standard engine a better competitor and at the same time reducing XL performance makes quite a few improvements to the game.

From what I understand the entire game is based on the standard engine and bringing down the power creep that are the XL engines is a good move and lore friendly and more loyal to original Battletech.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 January 2017 - 10:40 PM.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 11 January 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

Got my first Ghost Drop as a Clanner and the match wait time in CW is longer than ever. Perhaps now PGI will learn that mere tonnage difference will not remedy the imbalance existing between factions.


*edit* Aaand we had to cancel the search twice because it is taking unacceptable amount of time to find matches.

I blame the lack of people playing CW/FW/FP on there not being Clan Diamond Shark.

(And quads for Juodas)

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 11 January 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

I blame the lack of people playing CW/FW/FP on there not being Clan Diamond Shark.

(And quads for Juodas)

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 11 January 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

I take my love for CDS very seriously.