9 replies to this topic

[Spunkmaster]

High Folks!

While putting builds together (in the MWO client) for the Hunchback IIC, I noticed something odd. Equipping an XL 250 provides 10 internal heat sinks. C-AC2s have a heat rating of 0.6. C-U AC/10s have a heat rating of 3. So my left-brained driven thinking would expect 4x AC/2 & 2x ER MLas to have better heat efficiency than 2x U AC/10 & 2 ER MLas. However, the exact opposite is true. All else being equal, the quad-AC/2 build has a heat efficiency of 1.16 and the dual-U AC/10 build racks up a heat efficiency of 1.25.

Am I missing something? Was this a PGI attempt at balancing something?

Thanks!

[SpiralFace]

The heat efficiency value is based on alpha's not sustained fire.

The rating is based off of the dissipation rates compared to the alphas. It does not take sustained fire or double tapping from the UAC's into consideration.

[Spunkmaster]

SpiralFace, on 13 January 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

The heat efficiency value is based on alpha's not sustained fire.

The rating is based off of the dissipation rates compared to the alphas. It does not take sustained fire or double tapping from the UAC's into consideration.

Thanks, SpiralFace!

Maybe I'm not thinking this through right. With 0.6 heat output, a 4x AC/2 alpha would be a total of "2.4 heat". A 2x U AC/10 alpha (no double taps) would be a total of "6 heat". I'm assuming 6 is more heat (hotter) than 2.4. Maybe I'm thinking too much...

[Roughneck45]

The rate of fire I'm guessing?

This question made me realize I have no idea how that heat efficiency numbers are calculated, in game and on smurfy. So a little digging produced this from HPG Outreach reddit.

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Let HD = heat dissipation rate, measured in heat/sec

Let HPS = heat generated per second

Smurfy calculates your cooling efficiency as: 100% * HD / HPS

BUT Smurfy's doesn't count flamers at all because they generate variable heat. Your can add or subtract flamers from your mech and its reported cooling efficiency will not change. Flamers become exponentially hotter the longer you hold the trigger; that makes it difficult to include in the formula.

The MechWarrior Online client, on the other hand, calculates heat efficiency as:

sqrt( 5 * HD / HPS)

... but the MWO client used to have a bug which only effected energy weapons. I don't know if this bug has been fixed. Basically the beam duration was not taken into account when calculating your heat efficiency, so lasers always appeared hotter than they really were. Also, I have no idea how the MWO client counts flamers.

In other words, neither of these tools are currently working correctly for you but for different reasons

For comparison, a heat efficiency of 50% in Smurfy's ought to equal 1.58 in the MWO client. Yes, it's weird.
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I usually tell people to try to get at least a 1.2 heat efficiency but everyone seems to have a number they are comfortable with.

Edited by Roughneck45, 13 January 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[Leone]

Uac 2 refire rate. 0.72 seconds.
Uac 10 refire rate 2.5 seconds.

By the time you're ready to fire a second uac 10, you've already launched three uac 2s shells.

So heat is almost 2.4 compared to 3, for one of each. Dual uac2s therefore make 4.8 heat compared to the uac 10's 3. This of course isn't counting the launch time for all the uac shells. Uac 10 doesn't start refire count till the last shell left the barrel, so you know, nudge things even further into the uac 2' favour for running hotter and meaner.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 14 January 2017 - 12:20 AM.

[Koniving]

Spunkmaster, on 13 January 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

Thanks, SpiralFace!

Maybe I'm not thinking this through right. With 0.6 heat output, a 4x AC/2 alpha would be a total of "2.4 heat". A 2x U AC/10 alpha (no double taps) would be a total of "6 heat". I'm assuming 6 is more heat (hotter) than 2.4. Maybe I'm thinking too much...

Alpha is to fire all weapons at once a single time.

Ac/2s in mow are rapid fire weapons firing around 19 times in 10 secon1s
Ac/10s fire maybe 4 times in 10 seconds.

0.6 x 19 = 11.4 per 10 seconds for one Ac/2. 4 Ac/2s = 45.6 per 10 seconds.
Ac/10s = 12 per 10 seconds x2 = 24 per 10 seconds.

Understand now?

I am well aware that PGI had the fire rates warped away from BT (Ac/2 should cap at 4 damage per 10 seconds and Ac/10 fires up to 20 damage in 10 seconds, hence why Ac/10 accurate range is much shorter (fire rate plus recoil) and its heat is higher despite being significantly more heat efficient), but "balance".

Edited by Koniving, 14 January 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Void Angel]

Spunkmaster, on 13 January 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

High Folks!

While putting builds together (in the MWO client) for the Hunchback IIC, I noticed something odd. Equipping an XL 250 provides 10 internal heat sinks. C-AC2s have a heat rating of 0.6. C-U AC/10s have a heat rating of 3. So my left-brained driven thinking would expect 4x AC/2 & 2x ER MLas to have better heat efficiency than 2x U AC/10 & 2 ER MLas. However, the exact opposite is true. All else being equal, the quad-AC/2 build has a heat efficiency of 1.16 and the dual-U AC/10 build racks up a heat efficiency of 1.25.

Am I missing something? Was this a PGI attempt at balancing something?

Thanks!

As others have explained, the "Heat Efficiency" rating of your 'mech is rather misleading in the game client. Instead, use Smurfy's Awesome Mechlab to evaluate builds. This will give you an overview of how your build will perform (though I don't think he's got quirks coded in yet) and the spreadsheets will give you the data you're looking for in this post at a glance. =)

PS: Well done thinking about the hows and whys of the game - this mentality will serve you well in any game, and is essential for understanding and enjoying MWO.

[Spunkmaster]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! I didn't realize heat efficiency was calculated over time. It all makes sense now.

Have a great weekend!

[TooDumbToQuit]

And then take it to a hot training ground and try it out before you go into a game.

[Koniving]

Spunkmaster, on 14 January 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! I didn't realize heat efficiency was calculated over time. It all makes sense now.

Have a great weekend!

In terms of MWO's heat efficiency measurement in the mechlab... It isn't calculated like I think it should be.
How it is calculated is they take the weapon heat and subtracts 10 seconds worth of cooling, and then ratios it.
These weapons will do this heat... lets add them together for one use and subtract 10 seconds of cooling. This makes no sense given how you would use weapons.

In terms of fact... it simply should be calculated over time because you need to be able to cool as fast as you heat up and different weapons heat at different rates. This weapon might only generate 0.6 per shot, but you're using 4 of them and they fire as often as twice per second. That weapon might only generate 3 heat but you're using two of them and they fire once every 2.5 seconds. Which will cook you faster? How long can it run before you reach the maximum 'safe heat' MWO allows for you based on your heatsinks? Etc.

Far as MWO's "heat" thing, try to aim for 1.30 minimum, I prefer 1.45 or higher myself as I like using DPS weapons and that helps keep them cool enough to matter. In Smurfy, you can get far better heat efficiency estimates and even create 'scenarios' with a graph.

It will get you results similar to this.

You will notice despite constant fighting... it never shuts down.

Notice this one heats up gradually.... and the step to cooling down is to stop firing.
Also notice I'm not firing all the weapons at the same time, but having them fire in a sequence. This helps delay heat build up while still putting 'something' down the line. It also prevents lulls of not firing that enemies could use to shoot back with.
That comes at the cost of reducing the overall pinpoint damage I can deliver at specific body parts since enemies can spread this damage around.

Another example.

Definitely watch after 5 minutes to the end though the entire video should be informative.

And an example of what you have to do if your measurement in MWO is less than 1.3... with this 1.29 measured heat efficiency Trial Cicada in a 2 versus me fight.

(Skip to 5 minutes 48 seconds for that fight.)

Edited by Koniving, 14 January 2017 - 01:05 PM.