37 replies to this topic

[K O Z A K]

So, before when I dropped CW it was exclusively with a unit 10man+(tried both Clan and IS side with similar results). We generally did well with good pilots and coordination. I had some time to waste this weekend and today, so decided to try solo dropping CW. I was very surprised at what I experienced.

I simply don't understand what everyone is talking about clan winning pugs and tech disbalance. Yesterday I dropped solo or small group (4 or less) and over about 8 hours of gaming I won 2 drops. Today, after a few hours of drops clan won only 1 drop (on polar skirmish where we slightly outranged them).

It seems nearly every time:

IS skittles > Clan skittles
IS skittles > Clan small teams
IS small teams > Clan small teams

8+ vs 8+ seems to depend on skill more than anything else

the only few games we won was when the enemy was pure skittles with stupid stuff like trial lrm stalkers, and there weren't that many (which is kind of funny because I swear I've seen more crap like this when dropping with a large group)

every other drop was the same, we just got pushed into by tonnage, armor/structure quirks, and more heat efficient brawl mechs. All IS seems to have to do right now is simply pick out the right mechs and press W and they can just walk straight into clan lines. Every time we dropped the first 1-2, and then we lost the entire wave

Am I missing something? Was there some drastic change in the last few days? It seems the only way to bother playing CW for a clan player right now is to drop with a unit on TS and try your best to keep range

[naterist]

You clanners chased off all the weak guys.

The only IS still playing are the guys whove been at it for a while, you chased off all the newer guys, and now its just the IS hardliners again, clan pugs, however, are dumber than IS pugs 60% of the time. In fact, if i had to guess, i think most pugs tried to go clan after..... like..... 2 minutes of trying 4.1 IS side. I call it the great pug migration.

And people thinking 2 mystlynx in a deck are also hurting the clan cause.

Mercs who wanna jump ship to avoid the newly clan pugs bringing down your numbers? Dont. Yall made this mess, now lie in it.

[feeWAIVER]

You have to remember that PGI gave IS a 20 ton handicap.
Which equates to 240 tons per team.

That's quite a handicap.

[K O Z A K]

just seems silly

Dropping as a w/e 8-12man you still roll over anything (and get called cheaters, hackers and all sort of other fun stuff) other than another 8-12 regardless of which side. Fielding 12ppl on unit teamspeak wanting to play CW doesn't happen very often unless you're in a unit that only does that, and dropping solo just to consistently do 2k pinpoint and still lose is pointless. I was going to start doing more CW but as things stand there's only any point if our unit switches to IS.

[Azerius Mezinar]

naterist, on 16 January 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

You clanners chased off all the weak guys.

The only IS still playing are the guys whove been at it for a while, you chased off all the newer guys, and now its just the IS hardliners again, clan pugs, however, are dumber than IS pugs 60% of the time. In fact, if i had to guess, i think most pugs tried to go clan after..... like..... 2 minutes of trying 4.1 IS side. I call it the great pug migration.

And people thinking 2 mystlynx in a deck are also hurting the clan cause.

Mercs who wanna jump ship to avoid the newly clan pugs bringing down your numbers? Dont. Yall made this mess, now lie in it.

I am flat out quitting clans because at this point, Innersphere tech is CLEARLY superior to clan tech in every way. Furthermore, there is yet ANOTHER set of nerfs announced for clan mechs - shouldered clan mechs will now take 40% cooling penalty instead of 20% when wielding XL's.

Here's the problem - there's something seriously wrong when I can fire all four medium lasers, all 4 of my SRMs on my Atlas (4's and 6's), AND my AC 20 without having a meltdown (and with minimal investment in heat sinks to boot). Yet, my Hellbringer Prime cannot even fire 2 large pulses, and then slowly fire one at a time 3 medium lasers. What's wrong with this? I am firing hotter weapons on my innersphere mechs in larger quantities, and I barely get to fire most of my weapons on the clan without overheating. There's simply no reason to be playing Clan tech, which was supposed to be superior to the IS... In range, maybe, but most of the time, this is not the case.

The other issue is as you pointed out, naterist - too many clan pugs are idiotic. They have no concept of team work or focus fire, and we're going up against pugs that fight like comp teams (they seem to know to joint alpha strike, and it's the main reason I am jumping over to IS in addition to them having superior tech).

2 Clan mechs to match the fire power and frequency of an innersphere mech. Yes, Clans have Streaks, Ultras, and LBXs that the IS don't, and yes, we can field XL's. But none of that matters when you're fighting Innersphere mechs with better armor (thanks to quirks), and better heat capacity.

At this point, I really think the game was better off leaving it at just IS Vs. IS - Most clan mechs are simply not viable against the current meta. Especially since PGI shows, time and again, a clear bias against the Clans and a bias for the Innersphere.

/nerdrage.

Edited by Azerius Mezinar, 16 January 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Look at the map.

Then revise your initial estimate.

Tech is a little bit imbalanced in favor of the Clans still but that's been enough to bleed most units over to Clans over the years (it used to be way imbalanced). Most the IS is pugs; terribad, terribad pugs. Though a lot of them are quitting after having tried the new update.

You've got the little arrows backwards. It's taken a bordering on absurd 20 ton handicap just to slow the advance of the Clans so they're only winning 2 out of 3 CF (Oceanic is a wash) every day instead of 3/3 and the tug-of-war indicator now takes 3 or 4 hours to get buried at 100% Clans instead of 1 hour.

If you can't win consistently as Clans right now I don't know what to tell you.

Edited by MischiefSC, 16 January 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[LordNothing]

i dropped a couple games yesterday and i was amazed how starchy these spuds i got stuck with were. one guy was like "this is a loss" and we hadnt even dropped yet, and another was constantly accusing people of running cheatware. we also had a drop caller who apparently didnt know how to read a map, calling for pushes when only half the players have formed up. in is the problem is getting people to actually follow the calls, but in clan they were following every call, no matter how stupid. i have to give the guy credit for at least trying though, but it was a case of the blind leading the blind. thats my observation but i need more data points.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 January 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Azerius Mezinar]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Look at the map.

Then revise your initial estimate.

Tech is a little bit imbalanced in favor of the Clans still but that's been enough to bleed most units over to Clans over the years (it used to be way imbalanced). Most the IS is pugs; terribad, terribad pugs. Though a lot of them are quitting after having tried the new update.

You've got the little arrows backwards. It's taken a bordering on absurd 20 ton handicap just to slow the advance of the Clans so they're only winning 2 out of 3 CF (Oceanic is a wash) every day instead of 3/3 and the tug-of-war indicator now takes 3 or 4 hours to get buried at 100% Clans instead of 1 hour.

If you can't win consistently as Clans right now I don't know what to tell you.

Ignoring the political agenda, I can tell you as a clan player that the performance of our groups has deteriorated greatly. We've lost some planets as far as I can tell, and progress has stopped for weeks, if not months. Innersphere has consistently and reliably won scouting matches against Clan Wolf.

Then again, like I pointed out above, the IS pugs Clan Wolf and others have been facing off against are considerably more skilled than the Clan pugs, as noted above. The real reason we've been curb stomping you is because we had all the comp units. Once they join IS, Clan progress (at best) stops. We've been lucky to hold on to what planets we have taken because of the skilled units in the clans, and only barely.

Like I said, the reason I am leaving (yes, I am in the progress of deserting Clan Wolf) is because in many of my matches, the innersphere tech has shown to be better. Or at least, the pugs have enough sense about them to coordinate and focus fire, where our pugs are completely skillless of late.

[nehebkau]

Hazeclaw, on 16 January 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

So, before when I dropped CW it was exclusively with a unit 10man+(tried both Clan and IS side with similar results). We generally did well with good pilots and coordination. I had some time to waste this weekend and today, so decided to try solo dropping CW. I was very surprised at what I experienced.

I simply don't understand what everyone is talking about clan winning pugs and tech disbalance. Yesterday I dropped solo or small group (4 or less) and over about 8 hours of gaming I won 2 drops. Today, after a few hours of drops clan won only 1 drop (on polar skirmish where we slightly outranged them).

It seems nearly every time:

IS skittles > Clan skittles
IS skittles > Clan small teams
IS small teams > Clan small teams

8+ vs 8+ seems to depend on skill more than anything else

the only few games we won was when the enemy was pure skittles with stupid stuff like trial lrm stalkers, and there weren't that many (which is kind of funny because I swear I've seen more crap like this when dropping with a large group)

every other drop was the same, we just got pushed into by tonnage, armor/structure quirks, and more heat efficient brawl mechs. All IS seems to have to do right now is simply pick out the right mechs and press W and they can just walk straight into clan lines. Every time we dropped the first 1-2, and then we lost the entire wave

Am I missing something? Was there some drastic change in the last few days? It seems the only way to bother playing CW for a clan player right now is to drop with a unit on TS and try your best to keep range

confirmation bias

[Aiden Skye]

naterist, on 16 January 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

You clanners chased off all the weak guys.

The only IS still playing are the guys whove been at it for a while, you chased off all the newer guys, and now its just the IS hardliners again, clan pugs, however, are dumber than IS pugs 60% of the time. In fact, if i had to guess, i think most pugs tried to go clan after..... like..... 2 minutes of trying 4.1 IS side. I call it the great pug migration.

And people thinking 2 mystlynx in a deck are also hurting the clan cause.

Mercs who wanna jump ship to avoid the newly clan pugs bringing down your numbers? Dont. Yall made this mess, now lie in it.

Wasn't it just yesterday you were crying about EVIL hacking when your team got beaten back into their dropzone?

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 16 January 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

You clanners chased off all the weak guys.

The only IS still playing are the guys whove been at it for a while, you chased off all the newer guys, and now its just the IS hardliners again, clan pugs, however, are dumber than IS pugs 60% of the time. In fact, if i had to guess, i think most pugs tried to go clan after..... like..... 2 minutes of trying 4.1 IS side. I call it the great pug migration.

And people thinking 2 mystlynx in a deck are also hurting the clan cause.

Mercs who wanna jump ship to avoid the newly clan pugs bringing down your numbers? Dont. Yall made this mess, now lie in it.

For starters what Warkhan said and 2ndly Ive seen you in a couple of FP matchs and your scores are about the same as most of those pugs.

Back in your box.

[LordNothing]

omg the amount of whining from clan pugs is absurd. like spending the entire game playing forum warrior on comms. if its gonna be like this im gonna go back to is next contract.

[Fuerchtenichts]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Look at the map.

Then revise your initial estimate.

Tech is a little bit imbalanced in favor of the Clans still but that's been enough to bleed most units over to Clans over the years (it used to be way imbalanced). Most the IS is pugs; terribad, terribad pugs. Though a lot of them are quitting after having tried the new update.

You've got the little arrows backwards. It's taken a bordering on absurd 20 ton handicap just to slow the advance of the Clans so they're only winning 2 out of 3 CF (Oceanic is a wash) every day instead of 3/3 and the tug-of-war indicator now takes 3 or 4 hours to get buried at 100% Clans instead of 1 hour.

If you can't win consistently as Clans right now I don't know what to tell you.

I guess it is simple the fact that some MERC units (capable of winning plantes) switched to IS since last week. So the 1:4 (IS:CLAN) unit mismatch has been reduced to 1:2 (IS:CLAN). No wonder, IS starts winning some attack phases.

Please take a look at the Charts. The data was taken from the FP leaderboard.

8th Jan. 2017


17th. Jan. 2017

[Jman5]

I just looked at my friends list. Of the people online now, only 5 out of 47 are aligned with Clan. Not sure what that's all about...

Edit: In case anyone thinks I'm exaggerating

Edited by Jman5, 16 January 2017 - 04:46 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

What i find on the clan pug side is i win most the time and if i dont it was a very close game.

Most the time when we didn't win was because we pushed all the way to their drop ship and then people would start to feed in slow.

What really funny is how almost no one uses coms on the clan side but we still end up winning anyway.

[K O Z A K]

nehebkau, on 16 January 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

confirmation bias

Well that's the thing, until this weekend when I tried solo pugging as clanner, based on my unit drop only experience so far, I actually thought clan tech was superior. Now that I've seen seen pilots of what I would assume to be similar skill level on both sides with poor coordination, I don't believe that anymore. Don't get me wrong, I still think there are serious advantages to many clan builds for QP game mode, but specifically in CW dropping solo or with only a few TS ppl right now the meta, tonnage and avg skill is such that 12 IS mechs can push into 12 Clan mechs, but not the other way around. In order to win clans have to first dance around the IS mechs, soften them up from optimal range, and can only then move in. Skilled 12mans on TS can do this, small teams and solo players more often cannot. Seems off to me if they expect to keep a what I would imagine larger population of solo players on both sides (I could be wrong)

[MischiefSC]

Azerius Mezinar, on 16 January 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Ignoring the political agenda, I can tell you as a clan player that the performance of our groups has deteriorated greatly. We've lost some planets as far as I can tell, and progress has stopped for weeks, if not months. Innersphere has consistently and reliably won scouting matches against Clan Wolf.

Then again, like I pointed out above, the IS pugs Clan Wolf and others have been facing off against are considerably more skilled than the Clan pugs, as noted above. The real reason we've been curb stomping you is because we had all the comp units. Once they join IS, Clan progress (at best) stops. We've been lucky to hold on to what planets we have taken because of the skilled units in the clans, and only barely.

Like I said, the reason I am leaving (yes, I am in the progress of deserting Clan Wolf) is because in many of my matches, the innersphere tech has shown to be better. Or at least, the pugs have enough sense about them to coordinate and focus fire, where our pugs are completely skillless of late.

So, again, Clans have consistently won 2 out of 3 CF every single day. The 1 day that 'Operation Great Dane' ran it managed, with the coordination of almost every single IS loyalist unit plus a bunch of mercs, to hold North America CF to a draw instead of a loss. Every single other day Clans have won 2-3 with 1 being a draw. There was one exception last month where on 1 day in 1 CF the IS won.

Statistically that would not be possible if IS pugs were better than Clan pugs. That and if you go to the leaderboard and actually look at the top ranked and bottom ranked players both loyalist and merc you'll see that the bottom performers are almost universally IS.

What you will see is a week of some mercs vacationing in the IS, which is helping. Not turning things around, mind you. Just slowing the losses. That will impact pugs to a degree as unit members who are pugging will out-perform their teammates.

Again however, Clans are winning significantly more than their losing and have non-stop since FW4 started. Your anecdotal experience doesn't change that. Also every single top tier unit and 99% of top tier players have stated, repeatedly and consistently, that Clan tech is a bit superior right now. It's been way clownshoes better before but now it's down to a much smaller advantage than in the past. However nobody in the top tiers of play are saying IS is superior. You're complaining about slowing down when you lose a ST, IS dies when it happens. Sure, 14 pts of structure quirk on a ST helps but the extra 30+ pts of combined armor and structure on the Clans CT vs its ST is still superior. Or you can pull both STs - an extra 80-90 pts of health than its IS counterpart.

Like I said. If you can't win consistently as Clans I don't know how to help you. You have all the advantages - lots of teams, lots of good players and a bit of a tech advantage. Pugs are terrible on both sides.

Fuerchtenichts, on 16 January 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

I guess it is simple the fact that some MERC units (capable of winning plantes) switched to IS since last week. So the 1:4 (IS:CLAN) unit mismatch has been reduced to 1:2 (IS:CLAN). No wonder, IS starts winning some attack phases.

Please take a look at the Charts. The data was taken from the FP leaderboard.

8th Jan. 2017


17th. Jan. 2017

So Clans went from winning 4 out of 5 matches to 2 out of 3. Moving mercs helps.

What this also shows is IS loyalists have largely gone away. Quit MWO entirely or went merc with the ONE BUKKIT solution. I strongly suspect that if the vast bulk of mercs all went IS for 90 days the Clan loyalists would do the same.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

I'm not sure when you guys play, but by my count, Clans have won just 12 of the last 53 matches in the current war log. So very clearly, IS is op and clams pugs are the worst seals around.

These purely arbitrary statistics are brought to you by the MERCs of MWO who have no influence what so ever on which side is the most OP of OP.

(This statement does not represent any particular merc unit, just my own personal bias)

[Azerius Mezinar]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

So, again, Clans have consistently won 2 out of 3 CF every single day. The 1 day that 'Operation Great Dane' ran it managed, with the coordination of almost every single IS loyalist unit plus a bunch of mercs, to hold North America CF to a draw instead of a loss. Every single other day Clans have won 2-3 with 1 being a draw. There was one exception last month where on 1 day in 1 CF the IS won.

Statistically that would not be possible if IS pugs were better than Clan pugs. That and if you go to the leaderboard and actually look at the top ranked and bottom ranked players both loyalist and merc you'll see that the bottom performers are almost universally IS.

What you will see is a week of some mercs vacationing in the IS, which is helping. Not turning things around, mind you. Just slowing the losses. That will impact pugs to a degree as unit members who are pugging will out-perform their teammates.

Again however, Clans are winning significantly more than their losing and have non-stop since FW4 started. Your anecdotal experience doesn't change that. Also every single top tier unit and 99% of top tier players have stated, repeatedly and consistently, that Clan tech is a bit superior right now. It's been way clownshoes better before but now it's down to a much smaller advantage than in the past. However nobody in the top tiers of play are saying IS is superior. You're complaining about slowing down when you lose a ST, IS dies when it happens. Sure, 14 pts of structure quirk on a ST helps but the extra 30+ pts of combined armor and structure on the Clans CT vs its ST is still superior. Or you can pull both STs - an extra 80-90 pts of health than its IS counterpart.

Like I said. If you can't win consistently as Clans I don't know how to help you. You have all the advantages - lots of teams, lots of good players and a bit of a tech advantage. Pugs are terrible on both sides.



So Clans went from winning 4 out of 5 matches to 2 out of 3. Moving mercs helps.

What this also shows is IS loyalists have largely gone away. Quit MWO entirely or went merc with the ONE BUKKIT solution. I strongly suspect that if the vast bulk of mercs all went IS for 90 days the Clan loyalists would do the same.

I was winning consistently until about a few weeks ago when we started getting pugs who refused to fight, wanted to hide and not contribute, and on top of that, having the good people disappear on us (or so it would seem).

However, it seems I am wasting my time arguing with you because you see what you want to see. I and several other clan players have noticed a clear performance upgrade going from clan to innersphere tech - Looking at it objectively, innersphere mechs can alpha more often, and shoot more lasers with a shorter burn time than the clan mechs who not only have longer burn times, but can also only shoot fewer lasers than the IS for the same heat or more generated.

There is a clear performance difference between IS and Clan, and I am certain that once my desertion period expires, I will see a clear improvement in my performance because of it. My atlas can, while holding down the key that cycles through SRMs, fire 4 medium lasers repeatedly, as well as occasionally fire an AC 20 - Clan mechs will be lucky to not overheat firing four medium lasers by themselves - seeing as, again, the "Hellbringer" cannot even fire two Large Pulse lasers and after they're done, cycle through one medium laser at a time without over heating. Yet, the Innersphere equivalents I've observed can repeatedly alpha strike with the exact same weapons (no, 2 large pulses, and 4 medium pulses) several times without overheating. I say that you're "seeing" what you want to see because the IS players do not want to have to have their OP builds nerfed like the clans.

I'd actually quit the game for a while and coming back, I see the clans have been losing badly (with me out of the equation, since you want to make it look like I am a bad player). Scouting matches have been consistently won by IS since they get to have and use their splat builds while the "Splat crows" get taken out of the equation (when we were already losing scouting matches most of the time as a faction).

Another thing, Clan mechs simply cannot take the punishment that IS mechs can. There's something wrong when I am fighting a cicada toe-to-toe in a timberwolf (majority armor on the front) with streaks and medium pulses, and he manages to weaken most of my armor before he drops dead from multiple consistent hits to the same areas.

What also shows that you are injecting rather than reading is that you mention I am not happy with slowing down. No, the problem is not a speed reduction, the problem is that the clan mechs cannot cycle through half their weapons without generating the same amount of heat as the IS mechs who alpha strike with all of the same weapons at the same time. That's with the current 20% cooling penalty for losing a side torso, which now is slated to be boosted to a 40% penalty; PGI has effectively rendered Clan mechs unplayable in Faction Warfare - simple as that. Why? Because in most maps, the range advantage has been denied to the clans.

IS mechs are superior, and can kill clan mechs very easily since for some reason, clan mechs cannot even take a punch like they used to. Not making this up, I had a match where I fought a clan variant of the Highlander with no damage while I had damage on my shoulders as my special edition Atlas. Needless to say, with my medium lasers, SRMs, and AC 20, I had him CT'ed and dead before he could even take out a shoulder on my mech (and he was firing fairly constantly). It's not merely anecdotal, it's a fact, and it's one that many clan players have complained about in the in-game comms.

Jaybles, on 16 January 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

I'm not sure when you guys play, but by my count, Clans have won just 12 of the last 53 matches in the current war log. So very clearly, IS is op and clams pugs are the worst seals around.

These purely arbitrary statistics are brought to you by the MERCs of MWO who have no influence what so ever on which side is the most OP of OP.

(This statement does not represent any particular merc unit, just my own personal bias)

And this just proves my point. Clans have been losing pretty badly, and with the upcoming changes they're going to be winning fewer matches given how ridiculously easy it is to shoulder a clan mech. I've not fought in a single match where every clan mech on my team didn't get shouldered.

Edited by Azerius Mezinar, 16 January 2017 - 05:27 PM.

[naterist]

Hazeclaw, on 16 January 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

just seems silly

Dropping as a w/e 8-12man you still roll over anything (and get called cheaters, hackers and all sort of other fun stuff) other than another 8-12 regardless of which side. Fielding 12ppl on unit teamspeak wanting to play CW doesn't happen very often unless you're in a unit that only does that, and dropping solo just to consistently do 2k pinpoint and still lose is pointless. I was going to start doing more CW but as things stand there's only any point if our unit switches to IS.

in hindsight, is has 12 mans going almost 24/7 in the frr ts hub, since that recently changed to the star league hub. having between 1-5 12 mans rolling in addition to our units made us better coordinasted. thats essentially what happened.