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Balance, What Is Everyone Talking About?


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#21 ccrider

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 05:58 PM

Ummm... Have you tried brawling against the IS in clan mechs? 6 sml pulse, lb20x ebj, 4 a.m. pulse, 4asrm6 timber, 6 srm 4 splat backer, the list is endless. You get firepower, speed and survivability since no IS mech can match that firepower without an x l engine and you can just chew a side torso off him and move on to another target.

#22 A Shoddy Rental Mech

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 07:08 PM

Looks like a fun thread to jump in on.
Post crap on the forums and see what sticks.

Maybe after a month+ of seal clubbing, The (Evil & friends) Clans finally drove the seals out of faction warfare
or worse yet, the I.S. seals got tired of being clubbed by the Clans and joined the clans. (can't beat em join em the saying goes)

Maybe the I.S. has spent the last month rebuilding their drop decks and tactics since what worked in phase 3 doesn't work in phase 4.1

Maybe Mech the Dane's plan to form the Frr/Kurita/Star League Teamspeak hub to organize the I.S. is starting to pay off in a better organized I.S.

Maybe the clans have gotten soft. Seal clubbing makes you weak. You slip into bad habits that work against seals that don't work against organized teams.

Maybe it's the Kcom effect. Where ever they go, that whole side just seems to do better. Worked in phase 3. Seems to be working in phase 4.1

Maybe P.G.I.'s plan to balance skill population by giving I.S. 25 extra tons is finally showing signs of working. (PGI plan working most unbelievable scenario of all of these)

Could be a combination of all these things.

The one thing we can rule out is the mechs. They haven't changed in the last 2 weeks.

#23 Roland09

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 07:29 PM

View Postccrider, on 16 January 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

Ummm... Have you tried brawling against the IS in clan mechs? 6 sml pulse, lb20x ebj, 4 a.m. pulse, 4asrm6 timber, 6 srm 4 splat backer, the list is endless. You get firepower, speed and survivability since no IS mech can match that firepower without an x l engine and you can just chew a side torso off him and move on to another target.


No, no, no.

You clearly have no idea. The brawler Clan mechs would then still be inferior to the overquirked Grasshopers with their eight Large Lazors that can fire one alpha after the another without overheating EVAR. Or the 4x ERLL Grasshoppers that can meld the should off any Clan heavy mech in one shot even when torso twisting! Happens all the time!

Bottom line: IS mechs OP. Clans nerfed to the ground again. Clan mechs are a joke. Evidence is that Clans have totally stopped winning.

#24 Starbomber109

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 07:49 PM

View PostRoland09, on 16 January 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:


No, no, no.

You clearly have no idea. The brawler Clan mechs would then still be inferior to the overquirked Grasshopers with their eight Large Lazors that can fire one alpha after the another without overheating EVAR. Or the 4x ERLL Grasshoppers that can meld the should off any Clan heavy mech in one shot even when torso twisting! Happens all the time!

Bottom line: IS mechs OP. Clans nerfed to the ground again. Clan mechs are a joke. Evidence is that Clans have totally stopped winning.

Be careful how you apply irony, someone might take you seriously.

#25 MischiefSC

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:15 PM

View PostAzerius Mezinar, on 16 January 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:


I was winning consistently until about a few weeks ago when we started getting pugs who refused to fight, wanted to hide and not contribute, and on top of that, having the good people disappear on us (or so it would seem).

However, it seems I am wasting my time arguing with you because you see what you want to see. I and several other clan players have noticed a clear performance upgrade going from clan to innersphere tech - Looking at it objectively, innersphere mechs can alpha more often, and shoot more lasers with a shorter burn time than the clan mechs who not only have longer burn times, but can also only shoot fewer lasers than the IS for the same heat or more generated.

There is a clear performance difference between IS and Clan, and I am certain that once my desertion period expires, I will see a clear improvement in my performance because of it. My atlas can, while holding down the key that cycles through SRMs, fire 4 medium lasers repeatedly, as well as occasionally fire an AC 20 - Clan mechs will be lucky to not overheat firing four medium lasers by themselves - seeing as, again, the "Hellbringer" cannot even fire two Large Pulse lasers and after they're done, cycle through one medium laser at a time without over heating. Yet, the Innersphere equivalents I've observed can repeatedly alpha strike with the exact same weapons (no, 2 large pulses, and 4 medium pulses) several times without overheating. I say that you're "seeing" what you want to see because the IS players do not want to have to have their OP builds nerfed like the clans.

I'd actually quit the game for a while and coming back, I see the clans have been losing badly (with me out of the equation, since you want to make it look like I am a bad player). Scouting matches have been consistently won by IS since they get to have and use their splat builds while the "Splat crows" get taken out of the equation (when we were already losing scouting matches most of the time as a faction).

Another thing, Clan mechs simply cannot take the punishment that IS mechs can. There's something wrong when I am fighting a cicada toe-to-toe in a timberwolf (majority armor on the front) with streaks and medium pulses, and he manages to weaken most of my armor before he drops dead from multiple consistent hits to the same areas.

What also shows that you are injecting rather than reading is that you mention I am not happy with slowing down. No, the problem is not a speed reduction, the problem is that the clan mechs cannot cycle through half their weapons without generating the same amount of heat as the IS mechs who alpha strike with all of the same weapons at the same time. That's with the current 20% cooling penalty for losing a side torso, which now is slated to be boosted to a 40% penalty; PGI has effectively rendered Clan mechs unplayable in Faction Warfare - simple as that. Why? Because in most maps, the range advantage has been denied to the clans.

IS mechs are superior, and can kill clan mechs very easily since for some reason, clan mechs cannot even take a punch like they used to. Not making this up, I had a match where I fought a clan variant of the Highlander with no damage while I had damage on my shoulders as my special edition Atlas. Needless to say, with my medium lasers, SRMs, and AC 20, I had him CT'ed and dead before he could even take out a shoulder on my mech (and he was firing fairly constantly). It's not merely anecdotal, it's a fact, and it's one that many clan players have complained about in the in-game comms.



And this just proves my point. Clans have been losing pretty badly, and with the upcoming changes they're going to be winning fewer matches given how ridiculously easy it is to shoulder a clan mech. I've not fought in a single match where every clan mech on my team didn't get shouldered.


See what I want to see? You mean... the stats?

See the ones posted above in Fuerchtenichts post? You know, the actual stats? Have you seen the map? You know, where it lists how many worlds have been taken/lost by each faction? You keep trying to take your own anecdotal experience as relevant to the statistical performance of both sides in the game. They're not. Your personal experience is utterly irrelevant to balance and actual performance of the mechs/tech involved. That Cicada by the way? The side torso has between +6 and +12 structure. That's it. Less than 1 CMPL hit of survival bonus in return for either paying an extra 11 tons or so depending on the engine or dying instantly on ST loss instead of just the penalties that Clans get. Well, they can also take about a 35% speed reduction to keep the same tonnage in a STD - also the loss of 1-2 in-engine DHS room. So.... having a heat and speed penalty from the beginning of the match instead of at ST loss or being killable for just 66% of the same damage (or less depending on how the Clanner twists). That's just the difference for CXL vs IS XL.

There's no argument here. As has been said, 99% of the comp players have already stated the techs not balanced and it favors Clans. That's why Clan mechs are the majority in tournaments and the preference for comp teams who play FW.

Also there's no argument on the stats in the game. Go to FW, look at planets won/lost by faction.

There isn't an opinion side of this - the math is pretty clear.

#26 naterist

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:17 PM

View PostHazeclaw, on 16 January 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:


Am I missing something? Was there some drastic change in the last few days? It seems the only way to bother playing CW for a clan player right now is to drop with a unit on TS and try your best to keep range


that is correct of both sides actually. when i first started playing people told me i was stupid for trying to pug it. i learned they are right. i now never go into cw unless im in a group. thats just how you gotta play the game. so..... whats your complaint exactly? you already were using a 10-12 man group before, thats the way your supposed to do it.

and another thing to people talking about "all these IS pugs who are OP," if theyre out performing and working in a coordinated fashion, theyre probably not pugs, theyre probably a 12 man of randos on the frr TS, thats way different then a pug.

#27 Roland09

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 09:40 PM

View PostStarbomber109, on 16 January 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

Be careful how you apply irony, someone might take you seriously.


Don't you get me started about IS SRMs doing more damage than Clan ones! Where is the justification for that?!

#28 Fuerchtenichts

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:04 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 16 January 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:


There's no argument here. As has been said, 99% of the comp players have already stated the techs not balanced and it favors Clans. That's why Clan mechs are the majority in tournaments and the preference for comp teams who play FW.

Also there's no argument on the stats in the game. Go to FW, look at planets won/lost by faction.

There isn't an opinion side of this - the math is pretty clear.


Hmm, where does the number of 99% of the comp players come from? I guess you are mixing statistical evidences with personal experiences yourself. Posted Image

In my opinion, population (quantity and quality of premade groups) are driving FP. Technical imbalances clearly rank second (or even better third or fourth compared to that).

#29 K O Z A K

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 04:52 AM

Wow,

Some interesting opinions.

Was just posting an observation, if the trend from last few days continues I don't think you will find very many people wanting to solo/4man drop on the clan side, and all you'll see after long wait times will be 12man stompballs.

The advantage of being a merc, we can always go where the OP levels are and the tater tots are in lesser quantity :)

#30 MischiefSC

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:04 AM

View PostFuerchtenichts, on 17 January 2017 - 01:04 AM, said:


Hmm, where does the number of 99% of the comp players come from? I guess you are mixing statistical evidences with personal experiences yourself. Posted Image

In my opinion, population (quantity and quality of premade groups) are driving FP. Technical imbalances clearly rank second (or even better third or fourth compared to that).


Reddit and a conversation between a bunch of players from MRBC Division A. I think the exact quote was from Crockdaddy?

Obviously not a new subject. The comment was echoed by Quicksilver Kalasa. While far less specific I've been roundly mocked in all chat in FW by Heimdelight for being stupid enough to play IS since anyone who can do math can see that Clans are better.

From a statistical perspective you can just look at the breakdown of what gets played in comp and when they do play FW (usually just to level mechs) what the actual comp teams play.

I just find it funny though that IS shows up day after day, match after match. Clans all quit/leave when the population shifts the other way. So much quit on the Clan side.

#31 Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:16 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 17 January 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

I just find it funny though that IS shows up day after day, match after match. Clans all quit/leave when the population shifts the other way. So much quit on the Clan side.



This confuses me, So, mercs leaving for IS in anticipation of the Bushwacker or whatever reason you want to throw out leads to a IS slanted population imbalance and you are calling clan players quitters because of this?

Normally I follow most of your logic even if I don't always agree. But this screams of bias. So please explain how the population shift to IS is indicative of clear clan tech superiority?

#32 Big Tin Man

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:19 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 17 January 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:



I just find it funny though that IS shows up day after day, match after match. Clans all quit/leave when the population shifts the other way. So much quit on the Clan side.


So as far as I can tell, the IS still hasn't taken a planet back from the Clans during NA primetime. Last night, FW ended on domination with the IS up. It was 100% IS earlier in the day, but losses to the clans caused a drop.

I'd call a stalemate balanced.

Time to look at what units are where now. Oh, they all went IS. Shocking. Coordination and skill win matches.

#33 MischiefSC

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:50 AM

View PostJaybles, on 17 January 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:



This confuses me, So, mercs leaving for IS in anticipation of the Bushwacker or whatever reason you want to throw out leads to a IS slanted population imbalance and you are calling clan players quitters because of this?

Normally I follow most of your logic even if I don't always agree. But this screams of bias. So please explain how the population shift to IS is indicative of clear clan tech superiority?


Not the mercs, the loyalists who voided overnight.

Mercs taking an IS vacation isn't nrw. It'll go for a week and they'll go back Clans.

I'm dubious it's related to the Bushwhacker- not much of a powerhouse. Mostly was probably tied to wanting to get drops. Ironically by all switching at once and the Clan loyalists going scarce.



#34 Fuerchtenichts

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:44 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 17 January 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

Reddit and a conversation between a bunch of players from MRBC Division A. I think the exact quote was from Crockdaddy?

Obviously not a new subject. The comment was echoed by Quicksilver Kalasa. While far less specific I've been roundly mocked in all chat in FW by Heimdelight for being stupid enough to play IS since anyone who can do math can see that Clans are better.

From a statistical perspective you can just look at the breakdown of what gets played in comp and when they do play FW (usually just to level mechs) what the actual comp teams play.

I just find it funny though that IS shows up day after day, match after match. Clans all quit/leave when the population shifts the other way. So much quit on the Clan side.


So you can not quote any specific link besides dropping some names known in the community and refering to a traumatic experience.

Btw. as I am to lazy to check the leaderboards for proof that clan loyalists stopped playing FP, who gave you that info? Posted Image

#35 MischiefSC

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:15 PM

View PostFuerchtenichts, on 17 January 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:


So you can not quote any specific link besides dropping some names known in the community and refering to a traumatic experience.

Btw. as I am to lazy to check the leaderboards for proof that clan loyalists stopped playing FP, who gave you that info? Posted Image


I'm on my phone. So how many quotes are you going to want? 1? 3? I'm dubious that if I take the time to research the subject for you I'm going to be chasing a perpetually moving goal post. This isn't a new subject - it's been discussed ad nauseum for 3 years. If you haven't seen any of it I'm not sure how much catching up you're expecting.

Heating mocked by Heimdelight isn't traumatic- it's part for the course. Almost all the old HoL players are ******.

Ghost drops. Again, I'll show you the leaderboard stats as screenshots if actually looking yourself is a struggle but I'm concerned that's going to be the same road. I'll post picks of the leaderboard you can see yourself at the relatively small population shift in mercs however playing IS is suddenly ghost drops.

#36 Fuerchtenichts

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:27 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 17 January 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Ghost drops. Again, I'll show you the leaderboard stats as screenshots if actually looking yourself is a struggle but I'm concerned that's going to be the same road. I'll post picks of the leaderboard you can see yourself at the relatively small population shift in mercs however playing IS is suddenly ghost drops.

Yeah, MERC population is shifting leading to the first ghost drops. So CLAN premades can expect instant dropping in the near future, that's awesome. Posted Image Less planets but good fights and the chance to improve team play and tactics.
It will be interesting to see if EVIL will continue to perform so extraordinary on CLAN side.

#37 multisoul

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 03:19 AM

very simple balancing trick:
anyone running teamspeak or other voip software should have a crash of MWO
voip ingame should do 1 damage per second

there you go: teamplay OP, please nerf (a little bit because those that know how to shoot dont need to talk)

#38 Marius Romanis

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:45 AM

Posted Image

What we have here is a failure to communicate. some basic facts.

4.1 lauches, many puglets join the fray with all the hype that people have been bringing to their attention in quickplay chat spam (i tried)

95% of the experienced players go Clan for multiple reasons : - MAD iiC , other good units going to be clan because of said mad iic and the piece de resistance.......
IS puglets are worse,
FOR 3 REASONS
reason 1 :- IS mechs need a LOT more work doing after purchase to make a good build
reason 2 IS mechs are cheaper in the store so the new players think they can build a deck faster so they play FW with terrible mechs
reason 3. Clan mechs when store bought often have "ok" loadouts (compared to IS storebought mechs)

So, for the 1st 2 - 3 weeks Most good units went clan, to farm the cheap cbills, because we ALL know what this game is really about .... POKEMECHS ! GOTTA OWN THEM ALL! , then as the queue times get longer because the IS puglets stop playing/go back to quickplay/move to Clan and MAD IIC's get xp maxed out all the experienced players that aren't loyalists move to IS, ready for the new bushwacker launch and to farm cbills fastest way possible again, on the CLAN PUGGLETS! that were smart/lucky enough to follow the big units or had a lore basis from previous mechwarrior games or swapped over to clan after getting farmed as IS(poor ********). Now the clan potatoes are thinning out were back to where we were 1-2 months after the launch of 3.1 (just wait till we get to where we were 4 months after 3.1 launch).

FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME!!! AT SPUD LEVEL, CLAN MECHS ARE BETTER, BECAUSE YOU BUY THEM THAT WAY! AT HIGHEST LEVEL IS MECHS ARE BETTER (BUT FEW PEOPLE PLAY TO WIN AS A TEAM PUSHING FORWARD SHARING ARMOR WHICH IS HOW IS MECHS ARE BETTER) everyone just wants easy cbills and to own them all.

So in closing, stop whining, clan mechs are slightly better but pretty closed to balanced with the current maps/ tonnage difference, if they remove polar and alpine and add canyon and mining they will probably need to lower the tonnage gap a little.

THE ONLY THING THAT ISNT BALANCED IS THE PLAYERS.

Edited by CadoAzazel, 23 January 2017 - 04:59 AM.






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