167 replies to this topic

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Not necessarily. Just because something is smaller, it doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior.

The fancy *** Maus is bigger, heavier and has larger caliber guns in comparison to a Leopard 2A7. However, when put against each other, the Leopard 2A7 will win 9.9 times /10 due to technological superiority

[FupDup]

I don't really like this approach, I prefer different roles instead. It's more fun and flavorful that way instead of making things into "heavier but stronger" and "lighter but weaker."

The primary example of this already in-game is the IS LPL vs. the Clan LPL. They are actually good at different things. It's not just "Oh, the IS LPL is superior all the time cuz it's 1 ton heavier." The IS LPL tends to be better up close and be decent at mid range, while the Clan LPL is kind of a long-range generalist sort of weapon. It's not the best at any one role but also not the worst. They have their own distinctive strengths and weaknesses.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

FupDup, on 16 January 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't really like this approach, I prefer different roles instead. It's more fun and flavorful that way instead of making things into "heavier but stronger" and "lighter but weaker."

The primary example of this already in-game is the IS LPL vs. the Clan LPL. They are actually good at different things. It's not just "Oh, the IS LPL is superior all the time cuz it's 1 ton heavier." The IS LPL tends to be better up close and be decent at mid range, while the Clan LPL is kind of a long-range generalist sort of weapon. It's not the best at any one role but also not the worst. They have their own distinctive strengths and weaknesses.

The same could be said with IS/Clan LRMs and Autocannons.
Clan LRM will build up heat slower, but making it easier to spread damage on the receiving end. IS LRM heat will jump but since they all launch at the same time in a cluster, spreading a volley will be harder.

Clanner Autocannons have better range/tonnage/slots, but they all fire smaller pebbles where the receiving end could spread the damage around their Mech better. IS Autocannons fire larger single shells that only damages a single component when it lands a hit

It's a nice touch that adds some variety and playstyle between both techs

[1453 R]

Like I said (sort of) earlier.

A holistic approach; i.e. two 70-tonners meeting each other across the tech divide having a relatively even chance of victory, works better than "How are we going to nitpick the cERPPC to ensure it is precisely 1/6*1/3 worse than the iERPPC?"

One solution compares trees and trims branches until each individual tree is good, never mind what it does to the forest. The other solution attempts to ensure that spending time in either forest is equally enjoyable.

[Deathlike]

Just remember that balance is a lot more complicated than using a spreadsheet.

Remember that CERLL is a 1 slot weapon, whereas the IS is stuck with ISMEDs (maybe ISERMEDs in the near future) and can be fitted into a head (despite its current state being very limited in usefulness - CERMEDs are still a thing).

Then there's the CERPPC which is a 2 slot weapon and can fit in a CT (not usually practical, but it's there if the hardpoint is available), and the IS can't do that funky stuff (until we get the Light PPC, but even then is kinda inferior to the CERPPC).

Also, there's the ugly fact that the CERMED ALWAYS has to be compared to the IS LL, because they fill essentially the same role, except we have a major tonnage+crit discrepancy.

To put it all in context (not just CXL engines either), there's a lot of stuff that has to be properly worked out on both sides of the tech tree... whether it is even Endo Steel for both tech sides, or Ferro Fibrous .. and you can't really simplify it into one change.. it always must be a series of a changes before things eventually are still different, but not overwhelming better in most instances.

[NighthawK1337]

I disagree with OP's proposed rules. Why not just call it Armored Core then? or Gundam? or maybe Macross?
We can't just throw everything away for the sake of balance. Why not just call all mechs, mech 1, 2, 3 .... etc. and not just make all mechs blocks of squares with weapon hardpoints on top? I agree that IS needs help but the reason I still tolerate quirks because the alternative of following your rules will make the game a bland game without variety. Why would there still be factions or distinctions of being a Clan or Inner Sphere mech?
As much as the quirks are band-aids to an inherent problem, that problem is what makes it a part of the Battletech Franchise.

Shiroi Tsuki, on 16 January 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

FupDup, on 16 January 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't really like this approach, I prefer different roles instead. It's more fun and flavorful that way instead of making things into "heavier but stronger" and "lighter but weaker."

The primary example of this already in-game is the IS LPL vs. the Clan LPL. They are actually good at different things. It's not just "Oh, the IS LPL is superior all the time cuz it's 1 ton heavier." The IS LPL tends to be better up close and be decent at mid range, while the Clan LPL is kind of a long-range generalist sort of weapon. It's not the best at any one role but also not the worst. They have their own distinctive strengths and weaknesses.

The same could be said with IS/Clan LRMs and Autocannons.
Clan LRM will build up heat slower, but making it easier to spread damage on the receiving end. IS LRM heat will jump but since they all launch at the same time in a cluster, spreading a volley will be harder.

Clanner Autocannons have better range/tonnage/slots, but they all fire smaller pebbles where the receiving end could spread the damage around their Mech better. IS Autocannons fire larger single shells that only damages a single component when it lands a hit

It's a nice touch that adds some variety and playstyle between both techs

I agree with this one. Have a cookie.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 16 January 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 16 January 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

So...what's the upshot?

Because this seems like a proposal saying "All Clan 'Mechs, gear, and everything else should, in fact, automatically lose all the time in every encounter to Sphere designs of equivalent weight."

I know that's not necessarily what you're getting at, but lemme ask you, man - how do Clan pilots compete when every single piece of gear they have is flat-out inferior to everything their opponents have?

I'm thinking that a version of the game wherein a Clan 70-ton 'Mech meeting a Sphere 70-ton 'Mech, both in their optimal range brackets and with similar levels of build/pilot competence, has a roughly fifty-fifty chance of attaining victory is better than just awarding the win to the Sphere guy.

Yes, the decreased weight/space of Clan gear needs to be offset. But saying "A Clan PPC needs to be worse than a Sphere PPC in every use case because the Sphere guys had to pay an extra ton/slot" is sort of disingenuous, isn't it?

The concept I think though is that the Clan version carries MOAR. More DHS, more weapons. Where an IS mech might have an AC20 and 6 mediums with 14 DHS the same weight Clan mech might have a UAC20, 2 CLP and 3 mediums plus 16DHS.

Make sense? Maybe they have the same damage profile though the IS version is more heat efficient the Clan version also has a slightly better range profile.

You'd need Omnis unlocked for this to work and appropriate hardpoint inflation to exploit it but the concept is that the IS tech is bigger, you have fewer total 'components' (Endo/FF,DHS, BAP, weapons, etc) but each is more individually effective. The Clan version has more total 'components' allowing for more customization (which fits the concept). So you've got two blocks that are made up of parts equaling Value P, just the IS version is made up of 10 parts and the Clan version is made up of 15 parts.

The concept makes sense and could work and be balanced. It's a better concept than the current version of 'Clan tech is just flat out better on average'.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 16 January 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't really like this approach, I prefer different roles instead. It's more fun and flavorful that way instead of making things into "heavier but stronger" and "lighter but weaker."

I don't think he is saying that things should be the same, there is nothing saying that two things can be equally worth the tonnage but fulfill different roles. Just putting that out there. I mean the comparison between the iLPL and cLPL is kind of setup for failure to begin with given they compete for different ranges. That said, if they did compete at the same ranges, the iLPL should be worth the tonnage AND any necessary equipment (such as DHS) as the cLPL at a basic level, so the cLPL could be less heat efficient for being 1 lighter and the fact the Clans can fit more DHS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 January 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 16 January 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Just remember that balance is a lot more complicated than using a spreadsheet.

Remember that CERLL is a 1 slot weapon, whereas the IS is stuck with ISMEDs (maybe ISERMEDs in the near future) and can be fitted into a head (despite its current state being very limited in usefulness - CERMEDs are still a thing).

Then there's the CERPPC which is a 2 slot weapon and can fit in a CT (not usually practical, but it's there if the hardpoint is available), and the IS can't do that funky stuff (until we get the Light PPC, but even then is kinda inferior to the CERPPC).

Also, there's the ugly fact that the CERMED ALWAYS has to be compared to the IS LL, because they fill essentially the same role, except we have a major tonnage+crit discrepancy.

To put it all in context (not just CXL engines either), there's a lot of stuff that has to be properly worked out on both sides of the tech tree... whether it is even Endo Steel for both tech sides, or Ferro Fibrous .. and you can't really simplify it into one change.. it always must be a series of a changes before things eventually are still different, but not overwhelming better in most instances.

Absolutely but, honestly? The concept he's putting forward works for this.

The key is that all of it, from hardpoints available to XL functionality, Endo/FF and weapon sizes and performance would need built to the concept. IS has bigger, heavier stuff that does better. Less total weapons/DHS/etc on it to get to Value P. Clan version is smaller, lighter and individually weaker but has room for 'moar stuffs'. Both in context of hardpoints and TCs, MASC, BAP, ECM, DHS et al.

It's a basic model to balance the game, better than we have currently.

[RestosIII]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

The concept I think though is that the Clan version carries MOAR. More DHS, more weapons. Where an IS mech might have an AC20 and 6 mediums with 14 DHS the same weight Clan mech might have a UAC20, 2 CLP and 3 mediums plus 16DHS.

Make sense? Maybe they have the same damage profile though the IS version is more heat efficient the Clan version also has a slightly better range profile.

You'd need Omnis unlocked for this to work and appropriate hardpoint inflation to exploit it but the concept is that the IS tech is bigger, you have fewer total 'components' (Endo/FF,DHS, BAP, weapons, etc) but each is more individually effective. The Clan version has more total 'components' allowing for more customization (which fits the concept). So you've got two blocks that are made up of parts equaling Value P, just the IS version is made up of 10 parts and the Clan version is made up of 15 parts.

The concept makes sense and could work and be balanced. It's a better concept than the current version of 'Clan tech is just flat out better on average'.

The "MOAR" philosophy only works with mechs that actually have the hardpoints for it. Something like the Summoner? Good luck trying to fit "MOAR" on it.

[MischiefSC]

RestosIII, on 16 January 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

The "MOAR" philosophy only works with mechs that actually have the hardpoints for it. Something like the Summoner? Good luck trying to fit "MOAR" on it.

So it needs hardpoint inflation, plus unlocked parts.

I'm a big proponent of balancing tech and then unlocking omnis. Non-omni mechs get slightly better quirks/skill tree options but omnis are more customizable.

It's doable. It's a solid concept and I don't think anyone sane is going to disagree that for the concept to work Clan mechs would need unlocked and more hardpoints in general. That even helps preserve the unique flavor of Clan tech; more customization options.

[Alex Morgaine]

How about more slots = more item hp. Say 10 per slot.
Clan 10 slot weapon = 100 item hp. 4 slot= 40
IS 10 slot weapon = 100 item hp. 4 slot= 40

That reasonable to start with?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 16 January 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

The problem is that this absolute vacuum comparison doesn't really work in practical terms a lot of the time.

The PPC example given, let's say. yes, the Sphere PPC(s) weight an extra ton and take up an extra crit. They should be compensated for that. BUT. But but but but but but but but BUT.

...how often does that extra ton/crit make an enormous difference on the battlefield?

It will matter at higher skill levels where deficiencies like that could cost you against a better optimized mech and keeping in mind that this is just within a vacuum, those sort of deficiencies add up quickly (like say 4 iPPC vs 4 cERPPC). Now IF the IS had equipment that were expected to be run with the iPPC that made up for the deficiency then those sort of things are fine (kind of like the extra space and tonnage help counter balance the high heat of the lower weight and smaller Clan lasers).

Saying that just because there is a small deficiency between weapons is acceptable because it is small is silly, there should always be attempts to balance things better.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 January 2017 - 05:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 January 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

It will matter at higher skill levels where deficiencies like that could cost you against a better optimized mech and keeping in mind that this is just within a vacuum, those sort of deficiencies add up quickly (like say 4 iPPC vs 4 cERPPC). Now IF the IS had equipment that were expected to be run with the iPPC that made up for the deficiency then those sort of things are fine (kind of like the extra space and tonnage help counter balance the high heat of the lower weight and smaller Clan lasers).

Saying that just because there is a small deficiency between weapons is acceptable because it is small is silly, there should always be attempts to balance things better.

Well, for one thing, you could make the IS ERPPC shoot faster (in terms of projectile speed), while having IS DHS be boosted like 20% in cooling (not sure if that number is too much) in order to compete with the Clan variation of the same thing (especially when IS mechs will hit that crit limit with 3-slot DHS much faster than Clans).

Of course, this is long before we talk about quirks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 16 January 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

Well, for one thing, you could make the IS ERPPC shoot faster (in terms of projectile speed), while having IS DHS be boosted like 20% in cooling (not sure if that number is too much) in order to compete with the Clan variation of the same thing (especially when IS mechs will hit that crit limit with 3-slot DHS much faster than Clans).

Of course, this is long before we talk about quirks.

That to me is still within the rule though, as both are "worth the tonnage" in equal amounts, or at least that is the hope with balance changes.

[Jingseng]

Agreed, because masses of AC/2 or MG should never be superior to AC/20, etc. etc.

It's like if a guy rigged himself up to carry and fire 10x 9mm pistols, he'd destroy a tank faster than another tank shooting it with a 120mm cannon.

[Bud Crue]

Jingseng, on 16 January 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

Agreed, because masses of AC/2 or MG should never be superior to AC/20, etc. etc.

It's like if a guy rigged himself up to carry and fire 10x 9mm pistols, he'd destroy a tank faster than another tank shooting it with a 120mm cannon.

Hmm. I like where this is going.

[El Bandito]

Prosperity Park, on 16 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Anyone else agree?

Quirks bandaids are not working for the last 3 years, and it will never work to bring balance between factions at this rate. Balance the base tech first by improving IS weapon/equipments relative to their weight and slots! And then use quirks on underperforming mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 January 2017 - 06:45 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

We don't have to agree on anything. The designers need to test stuff and come up with good decisions that use metrics data from games show evidence of creatintg the desired results.

[Deathlike]

SuomiWarder, on 16 January 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

We don't have to agree on anything. The designers need to test stuff and come up with good decisions that use metrics data from games show evidence of creatintg the desired results.

What if I told you... they do none of that (well)?