Jump to content

The Perception Of Cheating


34 replies to this topic

#1 Starbomber109

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sureshot
  • The Sureshot
  • 387 posts

Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:14 PM

So we, as an FW community, have a problem. Part of this problem is on us. Part of it is on pgi, I'm here to talk about what we, as a community, have as a problem.

There seems to be a willingness to call the opposing players cheaters or hackers if it seems like the match is 'too easy' for them (IE 48 to 7). So, yes, there are cheaters out there, they exist...but they can't be everywhere. Everyone you face can't be using an aimbot. There are some players who act like this is so though, there's a perception that a certain top clan is full of cheaters.

Guys, this is not going to solve the hacking problem. Calling out everyone who beats you as a cheater is not going to uncover the real aimbotters. This is getting out of hand and we need a way to deal with it.

Let me make this clear right now, there is no way to definitively prove by spectating, that someone is cheating there are some exploits out there that could use addressing (like the infamous lag tanking light mech) and there are some dodgy hitboxes in this video game. But unless you have access to someone's processing code, there's not really a good way to tell if he's cheating or not. He might be making some obvious motions with his crosshairs, and if you can spectate him you might be able to figure it out, but that evidence would be circumstantial at best. If someone kills you with a headshot three times in a row that's probably an aim bot, or he could have gotten very lucky. Are you going to punish him for being lucky?

#2 Nighthawk513

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 234 posts

Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:33 PM

The only time I ever reported someone for cheating was when they got headshots on 6 different active mechs with lasers. Granted, was a tier 5 potato and had been playing for under a month, but still...

And that one guy who decided to jack into a charity stream to have access to our comms and then spent the whole match being a jerk about it. He got reported by the whole team for both cheating and language. But he deserved that.

#3 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,575 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:46 PM

I can say I've seen one confirmed "no other way to explain his behavior" cheater in this game. The way he was moving his mouse, and the targets he was shooting at... Yeah. He was using a Wall hack (acted like he couldn't see a single wall the whole game) as well as an aim bot (his reticule snapped onto mechs, shoot into a wall, and then snap onto another mech he can't see and shoot the wall again, sometimes with locks from allies).

Overall though, a lot of people claim "Cheating" because something didn't visually line up. This is due to HSR to some extent. This can give the false appearance of cheating, when no such thing is happening. A shot misses you visually, but HSR made it hit you anyway. Or that Guass round you heard hitting you, but no damage happened... is that affect in reverse (but no one complains about that).

#4 Starbomber109

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sureshot
  • The Sureshot
  • 387 posts

Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:54 PM

I hear you on the hit reg thing. That's another real thing that could probably get addressed but is really hard to address.

#5 Devil Fox

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Infernal
  • The Infernal
  • 1,393 posts
  • LocationThe Fox Den

Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:17 PM

View PostTesunie, on 16 January 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Overall though, a lot of people claim "Cheating" because something didn't visually line up. This is due to HSR to some extent. This can give the false appearance of cheating, when no such thing is happening. A shot misses you visually, but HSR made it hit you anyway. Or that Guass round you heard hitting you, but no damage happened... is that affect in reverse (but no one complains about that).


This so much... as a player who comes from the great land down under, my average ping is anywhere from 240-280 on the NA servers (which is what FW is played on). My ping can flux based on internet usage in the house and my local node, but HSR has made a huge difference because now I aim where I want to hit, not lag lead like a boss. This is where previously low ping players could abuse laser accuracy, for higher pings we lose 1/2 the burn trying to find hitboxes, this is now in the past.

I've played with some of the biggest unit's in MWO, and played alongside some of their best, and count myself lucky. But HSR really upped my game, and being able to accurately pure laser vomit, alongside with my projectile leading skills allows me to lay the hurt so much more. I am now accused of hacking at least once during my one day per week stint of FW with my unit. It's a badge of honour for an aussie like me.

Had one accusation one Sunday of Lag Switching (welcome to ******** Aussie Net), when in fact HSR poptarting is very punishing for each other, I can get hit like a truck without even seeing a target or I can wreck targets before they notice me. I also had 3 games running where I got called for hacks, Simply because I had an awesome FW match where I was popping XL IS mechs left and right. Both me and a lance mate got 24 kills (13 and 11) between the 2 of us because we ran as a pair, and focused targets dead. Hell I even saw a video of hackusations, really funny, beeline Viper and all when he couldn't see the Summoner 500m to the right out of his LOS, near the map edge who could see his *** hanging out (hence the PPC crackles), or the Summoner later missing half his shots due to terrain, and overheating constantly (like 2 ac10 is a threat if the enemy rarely fires).

Another skill noobs overlook is terrain knowledge and behavioral prediction, I keep track of multiple targets on the battlefield, you run off to X,Y,Z I still remember. You jump over a ridge and try to back track, I will automatically cut you off on the off-chance, doubly so if I see you're smoking components give it away. I am not a tactical drop commander, I'm a reactive field commander, and I make decisions and retain knowledge of battlefield positions and movements hard and fast... HELL I've commander'd from a scout mech position in the heat of battle before.

Hackusations come from a lack of understanding game mechanics, and settings, as well as ingame knowledge of terrain, opponent movement, and presence on the field of battle. In essence a lack of skill that can be learnt through experience... but what the hell it's easier to blame someone of superior skill then to notice you made a mistake, or that you can learn from the experience, whether it's loadout knowledge, map details, or tactics used.

#6 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,575 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:55 PM

I'm also going to presume people experience some of the many bugs I seem to... Why, just tonight I ran 4 FP matches. I'm not calling anyone out and I'm not saying anyone was cheating. It's probably a lot to do with HSR and the rest is... I have no idea.

In all 4 matches my teammates and I kept rubberbanding. My Ping is normally low and stable, so I shouldn't really see this happen. In all 4 matches, I can recall one time where HSR was letting me get hit when I was behind cover (but after I had just poked out). I even had several "mystery" damage events, where I was hidden behind a wall for some time, and I "just took damage" (no explanation on this, my unit mates thought it might just be a hole in the terrain hit box or something).

The big killer for me tonight? I kept having enemies not shooting, but yet they where killing me. They stared at me for a moment, and I suddenly and magically started to become heavily damaged. Yes, I know they were shooting at me, but no graphics rendered in indicating they where shooting me. (Makes it hard to track where damage is coming from, when you get no indicators.) The big piece of proof I had was when an Oxide came at me and shot his SRMs my way. They went over my head so I took no damage at all, but yet half way before the SRMs actually would leave my sight (or if they hadn't gone over my head, half way to hitting me), they literally "just vanished".


I'm in no way complaining about dieing or taking hits (even if they never rendered in for me somehow), and I'm not saying anyone was cheating (most likely some kind of game bug). Sad part is, this isn't the only time I've had it happen before. I've even had cases where enemy mechs didn't render in before, so I was staring at the enemy team but couldn't see them to react or shoot back. (How do I know this? Teammates wondered why I charged into the entire enemy team, and after I was perma-dead I spectated them, and saw enemy mechs litterally flicker "in and out of existence".)

And yes, I say this knowing "no video, didn't happen" probably applies. Sadly, I don't dare try to record with my computer (even if I knew how and had the means). It's well above minimum specs, but yet I can't seem to go above lowest settings without problems...


Although most of my issues seem to happen in FP, I'm certain I'm not the only one who experiences these issues (it's hard to notice it happening most times). If it does happen to someone else, I can easily see the "they are cheating" accusation start flying. (I do wonder, I only ever seem to have these problems in FP from what I can notice... I wonder why? It makes no sense why in that game mode only I'd have these issues, or maybe I'm not noticing them in QP some how?)

#7 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • 8,987 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:04 PM

View PostTesunie, on 16 January 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Or that Guass round you heard hitting you, but no damage happened... is that affect in reverse (but no one complains about that).


Ah is that why? I've had that happen a bit lately. I just assumed it hit something next to me but perhaps, it did not!


Either way the people largely complaining/blaming:

1. Hacking
2. Hit Reg
3. Ping

As the reason they are losing, they just simply need to improve at the game. I have come miles, but then I do put a bit of time into becoming better.

To blame hacking @ 25+ years of age (I'd assume MWO is at least that), when there is simply no real "rampant hacking" that a select few are claiming each match, is overall pretty disgraceful IMO.

Since 4.1 I've had a number of "hacker" comments chucked at me too, I'm not even that farken good! I never had that ONCE in FP3. I play the same as I did then. So what then actually changed? A lower quality of player came along with 4.1 and QP, along with it came uneducated statements.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 16 January 2017 - 11:07 PM.


#8 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,575 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:12 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:


Ah is that why? I've had that happen a bit lately. I just assumed it hit something next to me but perhaps, it did not!


Last I knew, weapon effects and sounds are created on the client side, but damage is determined on the server side. So, this is why a shot may hit you, create the sound and the graphics for hitting you, rock your screen (if applicable), but yet deal no damage. It's also why sometimes, a shot will land no where near you, but suddenly your mech is damaged and there seems to be no sign of why, almost as if it is "damaged by magic". This is the server saying you've been hit (or not), even if graphically your mech didn't get hit on your side of the game.

But in reverse, if your shot hits on your screen, HSR and the server is suppose to predict if the mech really was there on the server (it should be) at the time your shot should have landed there. If it says yes, than it applies the damage to the target.

HSR doesn't overly mind what your PING is, high or low. It only really cares about it remaining stable. A Ping that is high and stable should register damage you shoot where you hit with it. If your ping is low, but extremely unstable, you may hit a target on your side, only for it to not deal damage to that target (because it can't predict the time delay for an unstable ping).



With this stated, can you understand why some people decry things as "Hacks" and "cheats" so much? It's really easy to believe so, if you don't know why things are as they are. Most people don't understand HSR. They just know "it does stuff". Or, at least that has been my experience from these forums.

#9 Mechi Messer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 102 posts

Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:23 PM

Yep there is cheating in MWO but most of the peeps who are accused ingame are just good or sometimes lucky. I got headshotted in my battlemaster once and it felt fishy at first but then I looked who did it. I stood still and I knew that the opponent knows the hitboxes well. No cheating involved. Many players start crying at this point. Usually unjustified.

#10 Davegt27

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,952 posts
  • LocationCO

Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:54 PM

in
before
the
Lock



#11 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • 8,987 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:58 PM

View PostTesunie, on 16 January 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:


With this stated, can you understand why some people decry things as "Hacks" and "cheats" so much? It's really easy to believe so, if you don't know why things are as they are. Most people don't understand HSR. They just know "it does stuff". Or, at least that has been my experience from these forums.



Not really, no. It's only started since 4.1 in FP. When did this HSR stuff happen? Cause that is when #hackgate kicked off, about 3 weeks into it.

If I cannot notice or even realise it's happening (and, i dead set barely notice it)... Then how is someone with no idea about basic game play going to notice something is a miss?

The "hackusators" are just average or below players, with poor builds, looking for excuses.

#12 Albino Boo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 281 posts

Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:15 AM

View PostTesunie, on 16 January 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

snip

You had packet loss.

#13 Vxheous

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Gold Champ
  • CS 2019 Gold Champ
  • 3,822 posts
  • Location2 Time MWO World Champion

Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:03 AM

The only hackers in MWO are those that kill Johnny Z. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

#14 nehebkau

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,386 posts
  • LocationIn a water-rights dispute with a Beaver

Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:41 AM

People see more cheating where they DON'T see any obvious signs of anti-cheating activity. Since PGI is rather hidden about what cheaters it catches (no name and shame) people assume that PGI is doing nothing and conclude that if PGI is doing nothing then it must be open season for cheaters. Add to that the tendency for confirmation bias -- when you see that a player haa a 3k game and you get into a cycle of seeing ghosts everywhere.

Honestly, I have never understood the no-name-and-shame policy for confirmed cheaters. It's an online persona and therefore not bound by most privacy laws.

Luckily it's not our place to make that determination. PGI has given us a handy-dandy right-click and report feature that leaves it to PGI to do the dirty work and allows us to wipe our hands on our pants and move to the next match.


<edited for grammar -- I am stoned on cold medicine>

Edited by nehebkau, 17 January 2017 - 01:02 PM.


#15 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,575 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:41 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 17 January 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

You had packet loss.


Packet loss would explain some of it, but for 4 full matches straight that night with enemy weapon fire not rendering in? That would seem to be to either be a rather consistent packet loss, or more likely some graphics bug. The mechs vanishing in and out I believe is when I catch a mech between low res render for range, and high res render for close up. I get it with terrain all the time (and could take screen shots of that easily), so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened to mechs sometimes too. I also seems to happen almost strictly in FP, for whatever reason. I've never noticed these issues in QP (groups or solo).

Maybe it is Packet Loss. Maybe it isn't. I just have no way of knowing. I do know that a teammate (unitmate) and myself teleported at the same exact time in some games. As I was grumbling about it, he was as well... No idea what that indicates.

AKA: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't have enough information to agree with you either. It is "one of the things under consideration".

View Postnehebkau, on 17 January 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

People see more cheating where they DON'T see any obvious signs of anti-cheating activity.


PGI has actually released lists of people they have banned. They do it every so often as a sign of them doing exactly as you say. I believe they probably are due to another list release... Someone should remind them of that...


As for the No Name and No Shame rule... Most of that is to prevent false information about a pilot to circulate around the forums, and possibly and needlessly ruin someone's reputation. If someone decried me as cheating all over the forums, and yet they have no proof and I haven't been banned for cheating, than that can really hurt my reputation. If some people take it farther, they could then see me in a match, accuse me of cheating (still or again), and then leave the match because "they don't want to play with a cheater hacker".

No Name and Shame is there to try and regulate this possible spread of false information. However, if someone has been banned and their account says so, than you can talk about them all you want last I recalled. (I know there was a huge stink not too long ago where a top tier competitive player who won some event (I think it was player run) ended up being banned for cheating... That was in several spots on the forums, and I don't believe any threads got deleted because the guy was banned already.)

When in doubt though, just exclude names. Play it safe.


Edit: Forgot to finish my post!

Edited by Tesunie, 17 January 2017 - 09:48 AM.


#16 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,575 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:52 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 January 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:



Not really, no. It's only started since 4.1 in FP. When did this HSR stuff happen? Cause that is when #hackgate kicked off, about 3 weeks into it.

If I cannot notice or even realise it's happening (and, i dead set barely notice it)... Then how is someone with no idea about basic game play going to notice something is a miss?

The "hackusators" are just average or below players, with poor builds, looking for excuses.


I almost missed this one....

Honestly, yesterday was the first time I've actually tried the new FP, with the new FP game modes. I've tried it before, but it was on the old Invasion maps and mode, which I had no problems with. The 4 FP matches (maybe a bit more) that wasn't Invasion mode I had nothing but problems with. Graphics issues. Weapons fire not rendering in. Taking "ghost damage" from shots that couldn't hit. Shots I hit with not registering. You name it.

So.. I wonder if it may be a common issue with the game modes/servers or something? Or... I just had a bad connection or something that night... May be why all the "hackusations" are flying around if it's happening to others, because it certainly can feel like someone is cheating when strange stuff like that happens.

#17 Albino Boo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 281 posts

Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:10 AM

View PostTesunie, on 17 January 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:


Packet loss would explain some of it, but for 4 full matches straight that night with enemy weapon fire not rendering in? That would seem to be to either be a rather consistent packet loss, or more likely some graphics bug. The mechs vanishing in and out I believe is when I catch a mech between low res render for range, and high res render for close up. I get it with terrain all the time (and could take screen shots of that easily), so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened to mechs sometimes too. I also seems to happen almost strictly in FP, for whatever reason. I've never noticed these issues in QP (groups or solo).

Maybe it is Packet Loss. Maybe it isn't. I just have no way of knowing. I do know that a teammate (unitmate) and myself teleported at the same exact time in some games. As I was grumbling about it, he was as well... No idea what that indicates.

AKA: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't have enough information to agree with you either. It is "one of the things under consideration".






Packet loss is when data either does not arrive or out of order. So your movement inputs don't get to the server, hence the rubber banding. The non animation of weapons fire is caused by the data of that the other mechs has fired not getting to your client before the hit. Its not cheating your just have poor QoS. I work in IT for a living and have been playing online games for the best part of 20 years. I have seen exactly the same thing over multiple gaming platforms and everything you describe is down to packet loss. The routing issue that caused the packet loss is somewhere between the server and your client, entirely independent of PGIs servers, playing a different match would have no effect on the existence packet loss.

#18 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 16,734 posts

Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:16 AM

hitreg is definitely worse than it was before the mech collision changes in the last (or was it the one before that) patch. im seening shots i should have missed hit, shots that should have hit completely miss, and an annoying delay between impact and display of hit effects (likely ping related). im not the best eagle eyed sniper in the game, but i do hit well above 50-60% with most of my ballistics and 70-80% with lasers.

ive seen things i suspected were cheating but here is the thing. people who cheat are just potatoes that want to get ahead. sure they know where you are all the time and they can hit you with absolute precision, but they are still going to hesitate, they are still going to make stupid decisions, they are still going to die like a ***** when they get confronted by actual skill. so the best thing to do about a cheater is to kill it, focus it down, and cement in his stone cranium the fact that he cant even do that right.

evidence wise you can only suspect. a video or pic of somone's score or showing them doing better than they should isnt really enough evidence. everyone has a lucky run every now and then, have a lucky shot followed by another lucky shot, an absurd number of kills or damage, even if it is uncharacteristic for that person. everyone has games like that if they play long enough. what you really want to look for is a jump in baseline stats. people improve gradually, some at a faster rate than others, but if you see someone performing at t4 level one game and then t1 the next, and continues performing t1, that is fishy. video evidence isnt good enough, i sure as hell wouldn't ban someone over a video, but i might take a closer look at his stats over time. we as players simply dont have enough information to make a judgement.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 January 2017 - 10:19 AM.


#19 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,575 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:35 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 17 January 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:


Packet loss is when data either does not arrive or out of order. So your movement inputs don't get to the server, hence the rubber banding. The non animation of weapons fire is caused by the data of that the other mechs has fired not getting to your client before the hit. Its not cheating your just have poor QoS. I work in IT for a living and have been playing online games for the best part of 20 years. I have seen exactly the same thing over multiple gaming platforms and everything you describe is down to packet loss. The routing issue that caused the packet loss is somewhere between the server and your client, entirely independent of PGIs servers, playing a different match would have no effect on the existence packet loss.


Actually for the most part, besides the convenient teleportation I experienced the same time as another unit mate (we aren't even in the same state), other members of my unit was experiencing Rubber Banding. I mostly had weapons fire not show up (and a few "there is no way they should even be able to hit me" situations).

Beyond that, I wasn't blaming PGI, and I wasn't accusing anyone of cheating. All I was commenting on with that short tale was "I can see how people could think it is, if they had something like this happen to them". I didn't believe for a moment that my opponents (a unit my unit knew fairly well) was cheating. But a lot of "something isn't right here" incidents happened in those matches. Whatever the reasons behind it.

#20 Starbomber109

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sureshot
  • The Sureshot
  • 387 posts

Posted 17 January 2017 - 03:26 PM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 17 January 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:


Packet loss is when data either does not arrive or out of order. So your movement inputs don't get to the server, hence the rubber banding. The non animation of weapons fire is caused by the data of that the other mechs has fired not getting to your client before the hit. Its not cheating your just have poor QoS. I work in IT for a living and have been playing online games for the best part of 20 years. I have seen exactly the same thing over multiple gaming platforms and everything you describe is down to packet loss. The routing issue that caused the packet loss is somewhere between the server and your client, entirely independent of PGIs servers, playing a different match would have no effect on the existence packet loss.

PGI we need server recital! (IE an extra recital that shows you where the server thinks you're aiming. It's an option in at least one game I know of. Granted, for some people, the extra crosshairs are just confusing, but for others it helps them lead their shots especially through higher than normal ping)

Also, I'll mirror the rubberbanding thing. It didn't really happen to me that often in FW until 4.1 came out. Maybe it's because of an influx of traffic (IE More players?) or maybe there's some other BS going on who knows (someone's mom DDoSing the FW server idk :P)





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users