172 replies to this topic

[TercieI]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

You mentioned both IS 45 tonners that are not the best poptart in that tonnage XD. With the BJ-3, there is still no reason for the Vindi.

Sad facts are sad.

[Miodog]

RestosIII, on 16 January 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

What is this, 2013? Please, for the love of god, please stop nerfing JJ's and poptarting. Some mechs require poptarting to be non-terrible, and the last time we went through this crusade, we turned stuff like the Highlander into scrap metal.

[NRP]

Meh. Just something else for people to whine about.

PGI should just make a whining simulator. Whine Online. Then these people could be legit Tier 1.

[Pjwned]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

You mentioned both IS 45 tonners that are not the best poptart in that tonnage XD. With the BJ-3, there is still no reason for the Vindi.

Right, no reason except the BJ-3 has worse torso twist and a far worse engine cap.

Definitely no reason for the VND-1AA.

[dario03]

As long as it is isn't OP this is a good thing. Adds more play options to the game.

[Mystere]

cazidin, on 16 January 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

Just so we're clear. I claim zero responsibility for my joke threads somehow inspiring stupidity. I cannot be held responsible for stupid.

Yes you can and will be held responsible for giving the idea or allowing the election of someone who does act in such a way.

It's the only way people will learn their lesson.

Tarl Cabot, on 16 January 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

PGI needs to make JJ a little more effective, or at least enhance the IS versions.

Such discrimination will be put down like a rabid dog.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Right, no reason except the BJ-3 has worse torso twist and a far worse engine cap.

The HBK-IIC only has 5 degrees of torso twist extra compared to the BJ-3, and the HBK-IIC is only 5kph faster than the BJ-3 and it is considered the best medium in the game. Can we stop talking about crap that really doesn't matter? The Vindi can mount a 255 XL (it can mount a 295, but you need to use ERPPCs which means stacking as many DHS as possible, aka around a 255) and has slightly better torso twist but that still doesn't make up for the low mounts and the fact it is easier to neuter. BJ-3 > VND-1AA

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 January 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

I define "come back" when it's the dominant play-style in an organized, high-level game. Which it is.

You don't see it as much in public matches because, unlike before, the skill floor is higher. It's less accessible than it was in 2013-2014. But, for those of us who can do it, it wrecks face.

Hell, it's not even just the pop-tarting, though, it's also the load-outs that pop-tarts use. I've got a RFL-3N running a Gauss and two PPCs and it just murders things stupendously using conventional corner- and hill-peeking. Being able to pop-tart just takes that kind of payload up a level by making the positions you fire from less predictable.

The underlined portion is what I will be using as justification that anything and everything related poptarting should not be nerfed.

At the same time, is this where I start asking -- again, and for the Nth time -- whether balance should be done from the top, the bottom, or somewhere in-between?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

Right, just leave out the Clan tech including the Clan XL engine on the Clan battlemech, definitely not an overwhelming consideration why it would be good and it's not like we were previously comparing 2 Inner Sphere mechs.

This is you missing the point. The point is that given the speed of the HBK-IIC, the BJ-3 doesn't need speed to be better than the Vindi. High mounts more than make up for any deficiency you can list off when compared to the Vindi.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 January 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

2.) Crosshair shake should linger longer after coming off the jets and this effect should scale based on mass, so lighter 'Mechs which depend on the play-style are not impacted but the big heavy ones that abuse it are.

AnTi90d, on 16 January 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

I hate poptarts. They ruined a lot of matches in MW4 and they're poised to become more prolific with the introduction of the buffs they're getting in the new skilltree, which disgusts me. I feel the reticle should shake and converge past the targeted range from the moment a mech comes off of the ground until it comes back into contact with it. I don't think they're overpowered. I just think they ruin games and make them more boring.

PJohann, on 17 January 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Jumping is ok. Sniping at 800meters while jumping is not.
Bandaid solution: make reticle move violently ALL the time while mech is not on the ground. Also buff jumpjets at least to their former glory.

And this is where the designer in me would step in and say: Why the **** in Hades' name would I design a cockpit HUD that features a crosshair that stupidly shakes under certain conditions? I would replace that with a better visualization that represents the same effect but which would be much less annoying to the pilot trying to aim.

Edited by Mystere, 17 January 2017 - 09:26 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

Right, just leave out the Clan tech including the Clan XL engine on the Clan battlemech, definitely not an overwhelming consideration why it would be good and it's not like we were previously comparing 2 Inner Sphere mechs.

To add to QuickSilver's post, have you even played a BJ-3 recently? Ou of curiosity, I converted mine from an XL225 with 16x DHS and 2x ER PPC to a STD235 with 13x DHS and one of each type of PPC and you know what? I can barely tell a difference in perormance. The Clan Tech advatage the HBK IIC enjoys boils almost entirely down to splash damage which, while useful, is not exactly a nightband day difference.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 17 January 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

And this is where the designer in me would step in and say: Why the **** in Hades' name would I design a cockpit HUD that features a crosshair that stupidly shakes under certain conditions? I would replace that with a better a better visualization that represents the same effect but which would be much less annoying to the pilot trying to aim.

I don't honestly care how you visually represent it, the goal is to have scattered shot vectoring of a duration and magnitude that increases proportionally to mass.

[Mystere]

adamts01, on 17 January 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

Cone Of Fire!!!! It solves so many problems, and every single successful modern shooter uses it. I just can't fathom why people are so against it. If you're in the air, your COF enlarges. More if the jets are activated. If you shoot all of your weapons at once, your COF enlarges, boating and huge alphas solved. It could have let lights stay small and fast and kept them from dishing out monster alphas while doing mech gymnastics. It really would solve so much.

Having posted that, I vote for a convergence based solution.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

I don't honestly care how you visually represent it, the goal is to have scattered shot vectoring of a duration and magnitude that increases proportionally to mass.

But I do.

As such, let's have reticle bloom or some other better visualization replace the stupid shakes. We're now in 2017.

Better yet, go the Full Monty and strive for a convergence-based solution. There, I said it, again.

Edited by Mystere, 17 January 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Got it boss, significantly worse twist and even worse speed (due to a low engine cap, which means both inefficient tonnage and lacking engine space for heatsinks) means absolutely nothing.

How about you stop misrepresenting what I said, they do mean something, they just don't mean as much as high mounts and being harder to gimp.

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

this solid build is the least wasteful build if you want 2x ER PPCs

FTFY, you can even move the PPCs to the same arm if you want since the BJ doesn't lose its arms like the Vindi. Why you would want horrible convergence like that is beyond me.

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

while this HBK-IIC build is superior in every way and has extra tonnage left over in addition to having enough space to add whatever you deem fit.

You are moving goal posts, the BJ-3 isn't better than the HBK-IIC-A (though it is closer than you make it out to be thanks to quirks, 20% heat gen makes a pretty big difference, let alone a free TComp X). That said IT IS more comparable than the Vindi is (which was the whole point).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

To add to QuickSilver's post, have you even played a BJ-3 recently? Ou of curiosity, I converted mine from an XL225 with 16x DHS and 2x ER PPC to a STD235 with 13x DHS and one of each type of PPC and you know what? I can barely tell a difference in perormance. The Clan Tech advatage the HBK IIC enjoys boils almost entirely down to splash damage which, while useful, is not exactly a nightband day difference.

In an effort to stop talking about jump sniping and some of you insane, short sighted, mean spirited peoples' desire to nerf this activity:

Yeonne,
Do you actually find the hardiness of the std worth it? I did the same thing a while back and found I had only 1 instance out of perhaps 20 matches where I lost a torso and still managed to keep shooting (for a bit) with the remaining side. The vast majority of the time, even when I was spreading damage effectively I found I still died by CT loss or was turned into toothpick within an instant of losing the first ST thus gaining functionally no benefit from the std engine.

Your'e better at this than me so, I wonder what your experince has been with the std vs XL BJ builds and if they are distinctive, how so (any advise is welcome as well).

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well, that and C-ER PPCs weighing less and taking less slots, with of course no drawback whatsoever compared to ER PPCs.

And Clan XL providing survivability and weight savings in the same engine, with no such option for IS.

You are missing the point again. You are looking at the line item advantages instead of looking at the result, and then comparing the results.

I don't need 17-20 DHS in the BJ-3 because the quirks give me a volley heat of 18.4 versus 28, and that isn't even as low as I can go. I get a heat efficuency of 42% before quirks, 51% if I drop the ER to a standard PPC. On 14 DHS, 4 of which are poordubs.

I don't care about the engine because I'm already running a STD. I am, in fact, more durable from that perspective. I don't care about the speed because 5 kph means nothing at all for evasion or repositioning; you don't start getting meaningful impacts to the game until 12+ kph difference.

To round it off, I get a free 50% boost to shot velocity in tbe BJ-3 that the HBK-IIC doesn't enjoy. It has to drop tonnage on a TC to boost, which makes it go from 52% on 29 DHS to 44% on 17...aka, near enough as makes bo difference against the BJ-3.

Ergo, its real advantage comes down to splash.

And before you go on a tear about quirks, note that it doesn't matter. We are discussing what is good in the game now, not how it should or should not be.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 January 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[jss78]

APART from the mediocre PPC velocity quirk (+20%), I actually prefer the SHD-2K over BJ-3, PXH-1B and VND-1AA as a dual-PPC poptart. Superior hardpoint location compared to PXH/VND, and superior hit boxes and durability compared to BJ.

I also like that I can run SRM's as that short-range backup, runs cool and is weight-efficient.

I'm hoping the skill tree revamp will give me equally good PPC velocity available on all 'mechs ... It's weird how the SHD gets 20% and others get 50%, when all run PPC's in stock loadout. I really want projectile velocities to be normalized across the board.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Oh okay so those factors do mean something which means there is a reason for the Vindicator then.

Except those factors don't matter as much as high mounts and being not gimped. This isn't something where there can be two viable options, both are PPC poptarts, which ever has the best capability for PPC poptarting is going to be the mech chosen for PPC poptarting. The BJ-3 is the best PPC poptart for IS mediums with maybe some decent competition from the SHD-2K.

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

I stand corrected on the BJ-3 build then, which can fit in 1 more heatsink if you shave off armor.

You would also have much better convergence, because your build would have convergence issues much like the Night Gyr does. That is part of the reason the HBK-IIC-A is so strong is because of how close the PPCs are together whether it be an asym or sym build (sym build is preferred for the HBK-IIC-A these days).

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Probably because it doesn't matter, and even if it did it's easily changed obviously.

Yes it does matter, just because you have instant convergence doesn't mean wide mounts aren't a problem. Again, this is part of the reason the HBK-IIC-A is strong.

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

So the comparison was originally Vindicator vs Blackjack, you bring up the Hunchback-IIC

I brought up the HBK-IIC because it has comparable speed to that of the Blackjack which should've told you that high levels of speed aren't necessary for medium poptarts, not because the BJ-3 is equivalent to the Hunchback IIC. You just missed the point and started to focus on stuff that didn't matter in context of the discussion.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

jss78, on 17 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

APART from the mediocre PPC velocity quirk (+20%), I actually prefer the SHD-2K over BJ-3, PXH-1B and VND-1AA as a dual-PPC poptart.

Well the BJ-3 used to have 30% heat gen quirk for PPCs which is why it was taken over the SHD-2K, well that and the 50% velocity buff that puts ERPPCs at Gauss speeds. That said since they nerfed it the SHD-2K may be worth looking at given it has extra durability despite being less heat efficient. Either way both are better than the Pixie and Vindi.

Pjwned, on 17 January 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

quirks that have a very uncertain future will not change anything at a later date if/when this comes up again.

Moving the goal posts again.