172 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

Jump sniping is making a comeback. Summoners, Hunchback 2Cs, and Night Gyrs are amazing jump sniping mechs. With the ability to pack 2 ERPPCs, 2 ERPPCs with Gauss, or 2 Gauss with an ERPPC, while jumping and firing, I am wondering what the point of bringing other long range mechs are.

Yes a dakka Dire or dakka Kodiak can put out more DPS. Warhawks and Awesomes carry more PPCs. But, being able to jump, fire, and drop behind cover is too good of an advantage. Especially with no real downside, than maybe some leg damage.

All this is making me wonder where the balancing factor for jump sniping mechs are. Where is Netwon's third law? For every force there is an equal and opposite force. A mech jumping in the air, that fires its Guass Rifles, should see some force applied against it.

With heat being the great equaliser in MWO, maybe this force should be additional heat when you jump and fire a ballistic weapon. Seems fair to me.

[Deathlike]

How many months late is this?

There are other options... some of them not quite great, but they have to all be played differently (Grasshopper-5P usually at the top of this list).

If you're a brawler, you need to actually be smart about what you're doing. I don't think there's enough potatoes up to this task.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 January 2017 - 08:05 PM.

[NighthawK1337]

Making comeback? Don't you think you exaggerated a little bit? or a lot?
I barely see Night Gyrs nowadays, Timberwolves still running Laser Vomits, and most of the Hunchback IICs I see only put in 1 JJ. Loyalty Summoners are good but I barely see them too, the nip PPCs are okay at best, but considering that a medium can run it and even better then what's all the fuss is about? JJs already produce heat when used and been nerfed to become HoverJets.
Did someone stomped you in a recent game with poptarting or something because I don't think your experience speaks for the rest of the Meta. Hill humping and high mounts is where it's at.

Since your post is all about anecdotal evidence at best, here's mine. You jump with the slow JJs now, you get out traded, a lot. Since you can't twist that good while in mid air, you get cored a lot faster. In my experience, when against other veterans of the game, they know to focus on the poptarter, and considering that teams are usually uncoordinated to fire at the same time, poptarting will usually result in the poptarter presenting himself as target to multiple enemy mechs alone.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 16 January 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[Scout Derek]

I do poptarting in my HBK IIC(O) a lot. Probably half the matches have poptarts.

[Y E O N N E]

I pop-tart with:

SHC (2x ERPPC)
MAD-5M (2xPPC + 2xAC/5)
HBK-IICA (2x ERPPC)
BJ-3 (1xPPC + 1x ERPPC)
MAD-5D (brawl-tart)
MLX-B (brawl-tart)
MLX-A (ER PPC)

AKA, I do it a lot.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I think there isn't a problem with poptarting so much as jumpjets are nerfed into the ground and only the clan mechs that can afford 4-6 of them are clan.

Spending 4-6 tons on JJs isn't a big problem on a clan mech.

But you ask me to do that on an IS mech with inferior endo and ferro, fragile XL engines, and heavier weapons and equipment?

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 16 January 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[RestosIII]

What is this, 2013? Please, for the love of god, please stop nerfing JJ's and poptarting. Some mechs require poptarting to be non-terrible, and the last time we went through this crusade, we turned stuff like the Highlander into scrap metal.

[cazidin]

RestosIII, on 16 January 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

What is this, 2013? Please, for the love of god, please stop nerfing JJ's and poptarting. Some mechs require poptarting to be non-terrible, and the last time we went through this crusade, we turned stuff like the Highlander into scrap metal.

Just so we're clear. I claim zero responsibility for my joke threads somehow inspiring stupidity. I cannot be held responsible for stupid.

[Vxheous]

NighthawK1337, on 16 January 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

Loyalty Summoners are good but I barely see them too, the nip PPCs are okay at best, but considering that a medium can run it and even better then what's all the fuss is about? JJs already produce heat when used and been nerfed to become HoverJets.

Loyalty summoner nipple mounted ERPPCs generate -10% heat, +30% ERPPC velocity, -10% cooldown, prior to targetting computer bonus. They are far better in every way compared to the hunchback IIc ERPPC build.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Jump sniping is making a comeback. Summoners, Hunchback 2Cs, and Night Gyrs are amazing jump sniping mechs. With the ability to pack 2 ERPPCs, 2 ERPPCs with Gauss, or 2 Gauss with an ERPPC, while jumping and firing, I am wondering what the point of bringing other long range mechs are.

First, jump sniping is NOTHING like its original incarnation where the heavier mechs only had to take 1 (ONE) JJ to be effective , and for more height/distance take more 2-4 more JJ, and there were only 2 solid mech lines and a variant here and there which could make the most out of it then it was people LIKE you who got their panties in a wad without a pad.

Not denying that the initial setup where a mech got most of its thrust from one JJ but then the alpha was 35pts of damage (snickers). Mechs are putting out that much and all they have to do is play peek-a-boo. I like ***** shooting too!!

PGI needs to make JJ a little more effective, or at least enhance the IS versions.

One of the biggest differences PGI can do though? Reduce the overall gravity effect, which is set at 3.xx gravities, so that mechs float a little more longer, that they do not fall back down to earth as fast as they do. For their size, weigh and the distance they actually travel, mechs fall faster in MWO than if they would if the game was set at an actual 1.0 gravity. Yes, it will allow them to stay airborne longer to fire their weapons but it would also make it easier to RETURN fire.../wink.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 January 2017 - 08:53 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snazzy Dragon, on 16 January 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think there isn't a problem with poptarting so much as jumpjets are nerfed into the ground and only the clan mechs that can afford 4-6 of them are clan.

Spending 4-6 tons on JJs isn't a big problem on a clan mech.

But you ask me to do that on an IS mech with inferior endo and ferro, fragile XL engines, and heavier weapons and equipment?

Eh, the TBR pop-tarts with just 3 JJs. I still maintain that it's actually a mediocre pop-tart and that it relies more on corner-poking, but other top-team players have disagreed.

The IS 'Mechs I listed above have ample room to fit the jets. The MAD-5M sits far enough away that the XL325 it runs is not much of an issue and it runs pretty cool on only 12x DHS. The BJ-3 isn't even running an XL and can pop-tart with the best of them because its PPC quirks are magical...loses because it has no splash and it's 45 instead of 50 tons. Give it a whirl.

[a gaijin]

Jump snipers can generally be easily overwhelmed. Brawlers and lights are effective.

Adding some real-world physics into MWO would be very welcomed by me. However, the physics should apply to all weapons on all mechs. I hate making "doh!" statements like that but it's the Internet so...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

You can blame the Kodiak, the ability to drop 50 PPFLD, be mobile, and be able to get back into cover at a decent pace brought back poptarts just to deal with it. We went from a push heavy/aggressive meta to a poke fest with a single mech.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 January 2017 - 09:11 PM.

[NighthawK1337]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 16 January 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

Loyalty summoner nipple mounted ERPPCs generate -10% heat, +30% ERPPC velocity, -10% cooldown, prior to targetting computer bonus. They are far better in every way compared to the hunchback IIc ERPPC build.

You're forgetting about the higher mounts, faster speed, smaller hitbox, amount of heatsinks and the fact that a 50 tonner can carry the same loadout that a heavy can, it will give the team a better option for a heavy mech like another Timberwolf or Night Gyr. Speaking from experience I don't find velocity quirks useful, I can hit PPCs with or without them. The heat gen and cooldown is good but a 70 ton heavy that only packs in 2 PPCs? An Adder can do that too in way less tonnage. Also don't discount speed, if poptarting and you're just standing still, you're doing it wrong. So the cooldown and heatgen quirks will barely affect that if you're keeping a mobile poptarting playstyle.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 January 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

I pop-tart with:

SHC (2x ERPPC)
MAD-5M (2xPPC + 2xAC/5)
HBK-IICA (2x ERPPC)
BJ-3 (1xPPC + 1x ERPPC)
MAD-5D (brawl-tart)
MLX-B (brawl-tart)
MLX-A (ER PPC)

AKA, I do it a lot.

SHC = Yep, pretty much required to make it work.
HBK-IIC-A = Pretty much given with those mounts.

I barely see these 3, and I wouldn't consider it rampant. Especially, Marauder, never seen one of those use JJs other than hill climbing.

MLX
MAD
BJ

Ok you do it a lot, but in terms of the overall population? Poptarting mechs are usually the ones who either need it to make it work or have lots of JJs locked. In my personal experience? poptarters usually poptart not just with one mechs but all the mechs they own that have JJs. I know, I'm one of them, I poptart in a Purifier and I do it with Novas, etc. Just about every mech I have that has JJs. The only mechs I have that don't have JJs are the hellbringer and assaults like KGC. We may have different criteria for what constitutes a "Comeback" but I draw my line with at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the team doing it every single game. But since all we see is Peek-a-boo Warriors Online, we can safely say that poptarting is still in the same place it has been after the JJ nerfs.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 16 January 2017 - 09:41 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

NighthawK1337, on 16 January 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

We may have different criteria for what constitutes a "Comeback" but I draw my line with at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the team doing it every single game. But since all we see is Peek-a-boo Warriors Online, we can safely say that poptarting is still in the same place it has been after the JJ nerfs.

I define "come back" when it's the dominant play-style in an organized, high-level game. Which it is.

You don't see it as much in public matches because, unlike before, the skill floor is higher. It's less accessible than it was in 2013-2014. But, for those of us who can do it, it wrecks face.

Hell, it's not even just the pop-tarting, though, it's also the load-outs that pop-tarts use. I've got a RFL-3N running a Gauss and two PPCs and it just murders things stupendously using conventional corner- and hill-peeking. Being able to pop-tart just takes that kind of payload up a level by making the positions you fire from less predictable.

[NighthawK1337]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 January 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

I define "come back" when it's the dominant play-style in an organized, high-level game. Which it is.

You don't see it as much in public matches because, unlike before, the skill floor is higher. It's less accessible than it was in 2013-2014. But, for those of us who can do it, it wrecks face.

Hell, it's not even just the pop-tarting, though, it's also the load-outs that pop-tarts use. I've got a RFL-3N running a Gauss and two PPCs and it just murders things stupendously using conventional corner- and hill-peeking. Being able to pop-tart just takes that kind of payload up a level by making the positions you fire from less predictable.

That therein lies the problem then. I don't play comp, I barely group queue due to a day job. How many people play those? like less than 10% of the total population of the game? I don't think the forums are the place to go to complain about comp meta. Of course normal players will note its lack of prevalence in normal games. Would you say that group queue and comp play is a representative of the game as a whole? I think not.

I'll give that definition to you, sure okay you'd consider that a comeback. But understand that a majority of us don't. Getting the JJs nerfed again will just ruin more player's gameplay again.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 16 January 2017 - 10:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

NighthawK1337, on 16 January 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

That therein lies the problem then. I don't play comp, I barely group queue due to a day job. How many people play those? like less than 10% of the total population of the game? I don't think the forums are the place to go to complain about comp meta.

Until they hit the group queue and find the comp meta wrecking their games.

In all seriousness, "trickle-down" is always in full effect. If all styles of play have merit at the top, they have merit at the bottom. At the top, right now, pop-tarting is strongest. Granted, it's strongest because everything else has too much linger time and will get walloped by the KDK-3, but I don't actually think it's entirely the KDK-3's fault. The aggressive push meta that immediately preceded it was on its way out already because the Mauler was walloping anything that stuck its neck out for longer than a pop-tart anyway.

Quote

I'll give that definition to you, sure okay you'd consider that a comeback. But understand that a majority of us don't. Getting the JJs nerfed again will just ruin more player's gameplay again.

I'm not sure where I ever asked for a JJ nerf. I'm not sure where I ever mentioned making any change at all, my original post wasn't even taking a position. I was just looking at the 'Mechs I play and analyzing how I play them.

But if you want me to state my thoughts on the matter, I think one of two alterations should be made:

1.) JJs get more powerful, but they always launch you forward as well as upward. No more pogo-sticking, you have to learn to fire on the move, or

2.) Crosshair shake should linger longer after coming off the jets and this effect should scale based on mass, so lighter 'Mechs which depend on the play-style are not impacted but the big heavy ones that abuse it are.

[Jman5]

Eh, I think it's in a pretty good spot and it's pretty balanced in my mind. Most of these mechs you see jumpsniping are equipping 4 or 5 jumpjets which can be a pretty hefty tonnage cost. Then you've got screenshake, the heat penalty, and forward momentum to contend with.

If you made shooting your guns knock you backward slightly you would be doing the jumpsniper a favor. It would negate the forward momentum that forces jump snipers to adjust their positioning frequently.

[Y E O N N E]

Jman5, on 16 January 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

If you made shooting your guns knock you backward slightly you would be doing the jumpsniper a favor. It would negate the forward momentum that forces jump snipers to adjust their positioning frequently.

Or you can just point your legs in the desired direction and hit "S" immediately before you mash your jump button and pogo-stick indefinitely.

There's no appreciable forward thrust from JJs in their current state unless you were already running before lift-off.

[AnTi90d]

I hate poptarts. They ruined a lot of matches in MW4 and they're poised to become more prolific with the introduction of the buffs they're getting in the new skilltree, which disgusts me. I feel the reticle should shake and converge past the targeted range from the moment a mech comes off of the ground until it comes back into contact with it. I don't think they're overpowered. I just think they ruin games and make them more boring.

That said, you should always remember:

"If you're losing trades, stop trading and reposition or go after another target," and, "If you're taking fire while under cover, find a better place to hunker down."