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New Skill Tree, A Balance Tool?


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#1 JC Daxion

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:22 AM

I was pondering this as of late.. I have to wonder if the new skill tree is going to be part of the balancing tools of the game. I know we don't know much about it yet, But it seams like we will have points to spend, and choose what boxes to fill up to get bonuses.

are they movement, or armor, structure, heat, weapon bonuses??

But to me this could be used as a balance tool. top performing mechs getting certain boxes unable to be filled. Perhaps some mechs will have more points to spend than others?

Just seams like a way to not use the big bad "N" word, and focus on not buffing even more.. While under performing mechs, could use it to buff up aspects and get them more on par with top performers.


Just thoughts, what do you think?

#2 Sjorpha

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:49 AM

Hopefully not, unskilled mechs and trials need to be balanced too.

#3 BrunoSSace

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:53 AM

Its just going to throw Balance out the window. Mechs that don't need quirks will get them and mechs that will need more will not get enough of them to compensate. The Great unquirking will be a very interesting time.

#4 Tristan Winter

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:07 PM

I was expecting the Skill Tree to be used for balancing. For example, if you get a cooldown bonus for a Timber Wolf, you get -1% cooldown, but if you get the same bonus for your Urbanmech, it's -5% cooldown.

But from the sound of it, the Skill tree will be identical for every mech, and the only way to balance mechs will be the base quirks.

#5 Scout Derek

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:10 PM

All the armor quirks.

All the structure quirks.

Should be fun.... right?

Marauder IIC gets more armor

/._./

#6 Sjorpha

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:52 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

But from the sound of it, the Skill tree will be identical for every mech, and the only way to balance mechs will be the base quirks.


Source?

#7 Tristan Winter

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:57 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:


Source?

I think I've seen this both on Russ' Twitter and in Tina's latest forum posts. Don't have time to dig for sauce now, sorry.

#8 Scout Derek

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:04 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think I've seen this both on Russ' Twitter and in Tina's latest forum posts. Don't have time to dig for sauce now, sorry.


Can Confirm this. Russ has said they will be identical. What is most unsure is that it was said that some mechs were to have perma quirks, but, it seems as if Russ decided to revoke that statement and make it a TBD decision. Can't blame them. Kind of hard to make some mechs keep perma quirks, and just the right amount so that some aren't supped up too much or underpowered.

#9 Tristan Winter

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:07 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 17 January 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Can Confirm this. Russ has said they will be identical. What is most unsure is that it was said that some mechs were to have perma quirks, but, it seems as if Russ decided to revoke that statement and make it a TBD decision. Can't blame them. Kind of hard to make some mechs keep perma quirks, and just the right amount so that some aren't supped up too much or underpowered.

I'm kind of surprised that all skill trees will be identical for every mech. Not just on account of role warfare (I'd like to see unique abilities for light mechs, for example), but also because 10% weapon cooldown bonus or speed bonus on a Kodiak is very different from a Mist Lynx, no matter how well balanced they are.

#10 Sjorpha

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:10 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think I've seen this both on Russ' Twitter and in Tina's latest forum posts. Don't have time to dig for sauce now, sorry.


Understood so we don't have a source for this, best to not treat that as factual then.

At least not until someone comes around that actually has time to fact check their claims.

I personally couldn't find a clear statement on this anywhere, I did have a little time to look but I couldn't. makes me think that there isn't one, at least not one that isn't vague.

View PostScout Derek, on 17 January 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Can Confirm this. Russ has said they will be identical.


When and where?

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 January 2017 - 01:09 PM.


#11 Scout Derek

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:12 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm kind of surprised that all skill trees will be identical for every mech. Not just on account of role warfare (I'd like to see unique abilities for light mechs, for example), but also because 10% weapon cooldown bonus or speed bonus on a Kodiak is very different from a Mist Lynx, no matter how well balanced they are.


And that's the thing. Maybe the Myth Lynx will have a perma +10% energy range, and then the skill tree just adds to it. We don't know yet. But I'm assuming they'll keep it initially to save some time, or, to save a lot, just clean slate all the mechs and have them equal.

Also most likely 8/8 pods will factor into the quirks too. Just wanted to point that out.

#12 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:12 PM

Russ has said that some mechs will keep some Quirks,
its likely this will keep most mechs more or less balanced skill-less vs Skill-less,

at this time Mechs seem to have 75Total Points available to them,
Russ says that the Grind should stay relatively the same then as it is now,

now we dont know the exact % amounts that will be in the tree,
or how we will be able to spend those points(some skills may cost more than 1 point)

#13 Scout Derek

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:14 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:


When and where?

Digging atm (thanks to older mod days I've learned to proofread a bit faster than I usually could.)

#14 Sjorpha

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 17 January 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

Russ has said that some mechs will keep some Quirks,
its likely this will keep most mechs more or less balanced skill-less vs Skill-less,


Considering that even the quirks we currently have fails hard at doing this, why would less quirks succeed at it?

If they are going to make skill-less mechs balanced, they actually have to both keep the current quirks and add more, quite a lot more in many cases.

Or they could balance the tech, then you would need a lot less quirks.

At no point will reducing the quirks while not balancing the tech and giving every mech the same amount of skills going to make balance better, that'll make it a lot worse. If that is the plan it's just completely moronic. (que mandatory idiot with "let's see how it play out!" here)

#15 Tristan Winter

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:19 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

Understood so we don't have a source for this, best to not treat that as factual then.
At least not until someone comes around that actually has time to fact check their claims.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

#16 Sjorpha

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:25 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Hey, whatever floats your boat.


It's not personal.

Don't mind the excessive post here, it's completely not necessary it's just me being very interested in memory.

I digress here, but human memory is super unreliable, we invent all kinds of false memories constantly. Most people, including me certainly, have lots of false memories both recent and old. Some are just small discrepancies, some are big.

Most people have false childhood memories that are vivid and complex, like an entire weekend trip that never acually happened and such. I did a childhood fact check and it turned out I had 6 confirmable major false memories, including one that involved living in a house for a very long time when it was actually just a month, one of being gifted a knife from my uncle and owning it for years then losing it, that knife never existed, and so on. That was not more than the usual person btw, it's just that most people don't do a proper check on this.

The most likely scenario is that you, whoever is reading this tirade, probably have at least one major childhood memory, one of those that you regard as cruical and defining for who you are, that is just plain false.

Eye witness testimony in murder trials and such are very often confirmed to be wrong even though the victim is absolutely certain, so there is a huge problem with overconfidence in eye witness testimony in the justice system, the truth is that vivid false memories are extra common under stress and emotional distress, such as an urge for "justice", so crime victims are extra likely to have them and condemn an innocent person. Even more common is accidentally creating false memories of abuse in children, by police/psychologists being sloppy in the interrogation process, the child's brain want's to please the adult and if it finds itself in a position where creating a false memory of abuse or something else will do this, then it will, and the child will beleive it is true and have convincing flashbacks, trauma and all the works. It's a huge problem that is constantly worked on new techniques to tackle, also politically sensitive to question the reliability of crime victims.

The most common false memory is reinterpreting a vague statement as having been more specific and meaning more than it actually did, that is what I'm worried about here.

A simple quote or link confirming this was an actual unambigous statement that the skill tree will not address balance would convince me of course, I just can't find one.

The science behind this is that memories are never "saved" in your brain, it's not like files in a computer. Your memories are constantly recreated and reconnected withing your current brain state, and they change a little all the time without you noticing, sometimes they change a lot. Unless you "reset" the veracity of a belief by checking the facts you can't really trust yourself for very long after aquiring the information, though there are techniques to "lock" in memories you have checked like mind palaces and other deliberate ascociation patterns etc.

No memories are really "Old", they are more like a whispering game that has gone through a thousand retellings by different people. Old memories are a bit like personal "myths" in the "culture" of your brain.

I find all that very beautiful personally.

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 January 2017 - 01:56 PM.


#17 Tristan Winter

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:38 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

It's not personal. Human memory is super unreliable, we invent all kinds of false memories constantly. Most people, including me almost certainly, have lots of false memories both recent and old. Some are just small discrepancies, some are big.
Most people have false childhood memories that are vivid and complex, like an entire weekend trip that never acually happened and such.

I get it. But some people can't remember their mother's birthday, yet they can quote everything Paul Inouye said about pulse lasers between 2013 and 2015. Human memory is super unreliable, but I know Warhammer 40,000 lore better than most Isis extremists know the Quran, for whatever reason.

Human memory is often reliable in a number of annoying ways. :P

#18 jss78

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:56 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm kind of surprised that all skill trees will be identical for every mech. Not just on account of role warfare (I'd like to see unique abilities for light mechs, for example), but also because 10% weapon cooldown bonus or speed bonus on a Kodiak is very different from a Mist Lynx, no matter how well balanced they are.


If the tree is the same for all 'mechs, i.e. they don't "build quirks into the tree", what I guess will happen is that the bonuses you can unlock from the tree will be capped at relatively low values. Something like the current modules -- nice little bonus wherever you want it, but no game changer.

And if they feel the 'mech definitely needs something more (and I sure hope they understand that some 'mechs do), put in some variant-specific base quirks too.

Say if all 'mechs can unlock a maximum of +10% PPC velocity from the tree, but our balance overlord has decided that an overall weak PPC 'mech like the Vindicator really could use a +50% quirk, they'll throw in a +40% velocity quirk and the rest you can unlock from the tree if you so choose.

Edited by jss78, 17 January 2017 - 01:56 PM.


#19 Sjorpha

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 02:05 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

I get it. But some people can't remember their mother's birthday, yet they can quote everything Paul Inouye said about pulse lasers between 2013 and 2015. Human memory is super unreliable, but I know Warhammer 40,000 lore better than most Isis extremists know the Quran, for whatever reason.

Human memory is often reliable in a number of annoying ways. Posted Image


Yeah :)

How sure are on the skill tree issue though? My guess it that PGI themselves haven't even decided half the design yet, regardless of what they've said. And it's not like this will get through PTS unharmed either.

How surprising would it be to find this as broken as ED and IW and get scrapped before implementation? Perhaps not as likely, given there is considerably more hype invested here, but surprising I think not.

#20 Tristan Winter

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 02:12 PM

View Postjss78, on 17 January 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

Say if all 'mechs can unlock a maximum of +10% PPC velocity from the tree, but our balance overlord has decided that an overall weak PPC 'mech like the Vindicator really could use a +50% quirk, they'll throw in a +40% velocity quirk and the rest you can unlock from the tree if you so choose.

As long as the bonuses are really small, it won't really have a big effect. It will just be a few fractions of a second here and there, which won't really matter except for comp players.

If the bonuses are bigger, then I think the consequences will be different for different mechs. For example, I don't think 15% extra speed is necessarily equally valuable for the Locust, the Timber Wolf and the Dire Wolf. It may turn out to be more valuable for certain mechs, because of diminishing returns or because of the MWO "sweet spot" of firepower, durability and speed.

Nice sig btw :)





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