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What Is Griefing To You?


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#1 MacClearly

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:11 PM

While discussing LRM hate in the guide section, Tesunie (his name is being used with expressed permission and he said he would like to participate) and I got into a discussion about whether or not intentionally not getting locks is a minor form of griefing players using lrms.

If you look up the term on the interwebs its definition is ambigious and open to interpretation. PGI has rules in place to try and curb intentionally disruptive behaviour. Some of the things listed include assisting the enemy, intentional killing or damaging teammates, intentionally suiciding or actively not participating. Further, any intentionally disruptive or harassing behaviour could be considered griefing and it may or may not be something that PGI could review.

So, my postion was that not getting or holding locks, is not griefing. I am not arguing that it is smart, nor good team play. I am only saying that being selfish, or not helping someone because you feel one way or another (such as a guy lurming from far away and not sticking with the rest of the team), or perhaps you are trying to headshot an afk, is not griefing. While you may not be helping someone, you are not preventing them from playing the game. My view is that griefing is a direct action or actions against another player. So something that could be described as passive aggressive behaviour is too indirect and its effects on the person is too minor to be accurately considered griefing.

Tesunie argued (although I will be brief and allow him to expand) was that actively not getting locks is interfering with game mechanics and the ability of another player to contribute to his team. That doing this is causing the game to be more difficult and could affect the enjoyment of another player (I hope I am summarizing at least a couple of his points accurately enough).

We both agreed that it is highly unlikely that PGI would ever take any action against a player that isn't holding locks. I also brought up that players insisting on bringing lrms (unless you are Novakaine) to FW as pugs are on the border of griefing just by showing up with them in their deck. Of coarse that is too much of a stretch to be considered seriously. Other behaviours came up included that guy who gets upset for some reason or another and stands behind you as you poke so you can't back into cover and die.

I am really interested in what other people think and how they define what griefing is. Escort missions for instance. I can't stand them. Usually I ignore the vip completely and concentrate on finding at least one enemy mech and killing it. I will usually do this alone, and look for some sort of open flank or isolated enemy. I generally put out half decent damage but usually also die pretty quickly. So I am not, not helping the team, but I am not playing smart either. My wlr for Escort mode is .6. It was at .2 until recently and for some reason the vast majority of the time I am on the attacking side. Is this intentional behavior griefing? Honestly I sort of got a kick out of losing most of the time as I generally put out enough damage or kills to not go down in psr. The story is also different from my alt account and I think it is because I am either not doing silly things there or am too busy concentrating on mechs as it is less established. Not sure. Is not caring about winning the game mode griefing?

#2 Vxheous

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:22 PM

Personally, I don't care either way. I target specifically so I can see component damage, and if some lrm-noob cashes in so be it. I'm not going to deny myself info just to force the lrm-noob to find their own locks. At the same time, I'm not going to go out of my way to maintain lock.

#3 Willard Phule

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:26 PM

Huh. Not helping the potatoes is griefing. I think not.

First of all, nobody held a gun to your head and made you bring a build that requires the cooperation of others. If that's all you can use, then accept that you're a potato and just deal with it until you learn how to aim.

Griefing is retaliating when some goober that can't unzoom rips an alpha into your back because he "didn't see you." Griefing is dropping an arty strike at your own feet when you discover you can't move because the same potato has shoved you into a corner. Griefing is getting sick of being crowded so you decide to get behind the goober and give back a little of what he's dishing out.

OMG. We need maps with coloring books and diaper pins for these potatoes.

#4 MacClearly

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:30 PM

View PostVxheous Kerensky, on 19 January 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

Personally, I don't care either way. I target specifically so I can see component damage, and if some lrm-noob cashes in so be it. I'm not going to deny myself info just to force the lrm-noob to find their own locks. At the same time, I'm not going to go out of my way to maintain lock.


I think that actually brings up an indirect point of if you are intentionally not holding locks you are likely not being as effective as a player. The old shooting oneself in the foot so to speak.

#5 Bombast

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:30 PM

Griefing is player behavior that's sole purpose is to aggravate other players. That's it.

I find it strange we need a thread for that.

#6 Tristan Winter

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:30 PM

That's.... probably the most hilarious definition of griefing I have ever heard. In my opinion, it's a good example of how shielded the MWO community, with its relatively old demographic, is, compared to other PVP games.

I think it's pretty funny when some people get upset that teammates are actively preventing them from getting a shot. You'll see people just shoot teammates in their back if they get in the way of an enemy mech, just on general principle. Why? Is there some rule about always sharing a kill with your teammates? How is that supposed to work? Do we take turns? If I engage an isolated mech away from the main engagement, am I obliged to share him with my teammates? Should I try to kite him back to the slow mechs on my team?

In my opinion, my teammates are free to do whatever they want. They don't have to cooperate, they don't have to press the R button. As long as they don't power down or try to hide for extended periods of time, it's all good. If they run in front of me to block my field of vision and steal the kill, then they got there first. So be it. They're not obliged to move out of the way or share kills. Of course, it's not my fault if they take FF if they literally throw themselves in front of me when I'm shooting, but I'm not gonna report them for not sharing a kill or for killstealing.

Generally, I find that people are very irrational about this stuff.

#7 MacClearly

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:37 PM

View PostBombast, on 19 January 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Griefing is player behavior that's sole purpose is to aggravate other players. That's it.

I find it strange we need a thread for that.


We don't need a thread for that or a lot of things. I did however want to discuss it and the forum allows me to do so. Getting others perspective on things can be interesting.

I am sorry you don't appreciate that.

Your definition is also far from definitive and it goes to my point about griefing being open to interpretation.

Actually by your definiton are griefing me by being intentionally dismissive? You absolutely don't have to participate and you could put me on your ignore list if you find me to trivial for your taste...

#8 Bombast

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:41 PM

View PostMacClearly, on 19 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:


We don't need a thread for that or a lot of things. I did however want to discuss it and the forum allows me to do so. Getting others perspective on things can be interesting.

I am sorry you don't appreciate that.

Your definition is also far from definitive and it goes to my point about griefing being open to interpretation.

Actually by your definiton are griefing me by being intentionally dismissive? You absolutely don't have to participate and you could put me on your ignore list if you find me to trivial for your taste...


It has a wikipedia page for Christs sake.

I don't want to be an ***, but I'm unsure how else to answer a question like this when there's a definitive answer. You may as well ask what constitutes an apple.

#9 MacClearly

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:48 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 19 January 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

That's.... probably the most hilarious definition of griefing I have ever heard. In my opinion, it's a good example of how shielded the MWO community, with its relatively old demographic, is, compared to other PVP games.

I think it's pretty funny when some people get upset that teammates are actively preventing them from getting a shot. You'll see people just shoot teammates in their back if they get in the way of an enemy mech, just on general principle. Why? Is there some rule about always sharing a kill with your teammates? How is that supposed to work? Do we take turns? If I engage an isolated mech away from the main engagement, am I obliged to share him with my teammates? Should I try to kite him back to the slow mechs on my team?

In my opinion, my teammates are free to do whatever they want. They don't have to cooperate, they don't have to press the R button. As long as they don't power down or try to hide for extended periods of time, it's all good. If they run in front of me to block my field of vision and steal the kill, then they got there first. So be it. They're not obliged to move out of the way or share kills. Of course, it's not my fault if they take FF if they literally throw themselves in front of me when I'm shooting, but I'm not gonna report them for not sharing a kill or for killstealing.

Generally, I find that people are very irrational about this stuff.


I agree that this can be a topic where some very juvenile attitudes can pop up.

If a player is facehugging an enemy on purpose (ie not the enemy is desperation face hugging my teammate) I will tend to shoot through them if need be. In most cases however I will try to avoid shooting a teammate, even if they run into my line of fire. I do it mostly out of the idea of best practices. I also give space when in cover and try not to be behind teammates wherever possible to avoid blocking people. I seem to be a rarity in this regard. HPG going up a ramp if someone is in front of me, the minute they back up I will just jump off to let them retreat. I do most of this now out of habbit.

#10 Bud Crue

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:55 PM

Griefing is an intent plus action crime.

actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea

Rough translation: Being a {Richard Cameron} with the intention of being a {Richard Cameron} is griefing.

As to the OP:
Not holding locks cuz you forget or even because you just don't feel like it is fine. Not holding locks with the intention of harming someone's performance because you are a {Richard Cameron} may very well be griefing...but only in Canadian jurisdications. In most US jurisdictions you'd actually have to shoot the LRMer too...and even then with malice aforethought.


Edit: I REALLY hate censorship you dickwads
Edit 2: HA! plural doesn't get censored.

Edited by Bud Crue, 19 January 2017 - 03:57 PM.


#11 MacClearly

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:56 PM

View PostBombast, on 19 January 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:


It has a wikipedia page for Christs sake.

I don't want to be an ***, but I'm unsure how else to answer a question like this when there's a definitive answer. You may as well ask what constitutes an apple.


Are you kidding me? Wiki? So you actually want to condescend to me using something that is not an acceptable or accurate source of information? Awesome.

Go ahead as well and read the definition for yourself and pay attention to the wording and see if you could come up with some behaviours that may or may not fit in the because of let's say ambiguity or interpretation.

Oh and you are fully being an *** here. I don't think that you are not intelligent enough to appreciate that there may be some opinions here. Since I have actually sort of intentionally on posts tried to not *** you off or be confrontational this nonsense here has got under my skin. I imagine you would not appreciate if I called out some of your posts because I thought they were frivilous. So unless you are actually trying to be a dbag, if you don't like the topic can you consider going elsewhere to discuss something you are interested in.

#12 Amsro

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:23 PM

Griefing is when someone gets butt-hurt. Basically an over dramatization of a much deeper mental state; Grief.

Grief is the loss of someone or something causing emotional issues, the deeper the bond the harder the loss is on someone.

IMO Griefing comes from focusing too much energy on being the victim. Lower the ego down a couple notches and remember that it usually isn't personal. Posted Image

#13 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:31 PM

Bringing LRMs is griefing. Not holding locks is justice. Posted Image

#14 Scout Derek

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:38 PM

View PostMacClearly, on 19 January 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:


Are you kidding me? Wiki? So you actually want to condescend to me using something that is not an acceptable or accurate source of information? Awesome.

Go ahead as well and read the definition for yourself and pay attention to the wording and see if you could come up with some behaviours that may or may not fit in the because of let's say ambiguity or interpretation.

Oh and you are fully being an *** here. I don't think that you are not intelligent enough to appreciate that there may be some opinions here. Since I have actually sort of intentionally on posts tried to not *** you off or be confrontational this nonsense here has got under my skin. I imagine you would not appreciate if I called out some of your posts because I thought they were frivilous. So unless you are actually trying to be a dbag, if you don't like the topic can you consider going elsewhere to discuss something you are interested in.


You struck first my friend, and he struck back. Simple as it gets. Touchy Nerves around here are laughed at.

And you're being a touchy one right now about it. If you were cool about it, he would've never said what he said.

#15 Clownwarlord

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:40 PM

So from what I can read of this and understand the question is, "Is it griefing to not get locks for lrm boats?"

In short no. The reason why is because getting locks should come natural and if forced put your own mech at risk to ruin your game play. In other words the two sides will meet and you will get locks naturally and there will even be times when you have some one on your team purposely getting you locks (narc and tag for cbills). Then lastly you have a responsibility to gather your own locks and not just feed off your own team mates.

So ultimately no. Also if you are having issues getting locks in a lrm mech then you are probably playing it wrong. This usually happens because you as the lrm mech would choose to sit to far back to where you get picked out by lights or nascar. Or your lrm travel time is to long allowing the enemy to get to safety. Just because lrms have long range in their name doesn't actually mean they are to always be used at long ranges. They best work at 300 to 400 m. The reason is what I eluded to earlier because your missiles only travel so fast and so you are required to be closer to cut down on the time to travel to target. This also helps your team because some enemy fire might go into you which will save on your brawlers and traders armor allowing them to stay alive through shared armor.

#16 NighthawK1337

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:45 PM

I'd define Griefing as something you do as opposed to something you neglect to do.
There is no downside to acquiring locks but deliberately not getting one is Negligence.
Alpha the backside of your team mate, that's Griefing.

#17 Navy Sixes

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:50 PM

Crap like this. I just don't know.


#18 Piney II

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:01 PM

View PostBombast, on 19 January 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Griefing is player behavior that's sole purpose is to aggravate other players. That's it.

I find it strange we need a thread for that.


^^^^This

#19 The6thMessenger

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:02 PM

I'm pretty sure that if it were to be against the CoC, it's the non-participation with a lot of mental gymnastics.

LRMers are able to get their own locks, just as every other pilots in the game, you are simply denying the advantage that they don't have to get locks on their own at your expense. As opposed of attacking the teammate intentionally in which you are putting your own team mate at a disadvantage.

Basically, the difference is that griefing actively disadvantages by affirmative action, while the scenario that you described is denying advantage by inaction.

I know a lot of people are thinking that LRMs are ******* ****, and they are at a bad spot i agree, but they are legitimate weapons that are able to carry their weight with proper use, so i doubt that PGI will consider bringing LRMs as Griefing due to the disadvantage it brings to the team.

#20 MacClearly

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:09 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 19 January 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

You struck first my friend, and he struck back. Simple as it gets. Touchy Nerves around here are laughed at.

And you're being a touchy one right now about it. If you were cool about it, he would've never said what he said.


Read his first post. Calling someone out because you don't think the topic is worthy is pretty a hole type behaviour. Then I called out using wiki as a source for anything and said there was ambiguity.

This is also not the first time he has done this as though posts need to be run by him first so he can determine if they are worthy. I call BS on that and yes I am saying as much that him doing this again is getting on my nerves.

So do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you here for play by play?





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