Jump to content

I Don't Understand The Shc And Smn Nerf. Plz Explain


139 replies to this topic

#1 Tristan Winter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,530 posts
  • LocationNorway

Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:35 AM

Here's what it seems like to me:
  • SHC and SMN were underperformers for a long time, ever since they were released. SHC was outclassed by Nova and Stormcrow, SMN was outclassed by Hellbringer and Timber Wolf.
  • People struggled to find more than 1 or 2 decent builds for these mechs.
  • PGI buffed CERPPCs
  • PGI gave SMN some Energy nipple hardpoints.
  • SHC and SMN became popular poptart builds.
  • PGI nerfed SMN and SHC.
To my eyes, it seems like PGI is basically making it harder to play the SHC or SMN without poptarting PPCs, which was the main thing they were good at before.

SHC now has zero bonus leg structure and also lost structure quirks for the ECM omnipod. Weapon quirks are tied to 8-set bonuses, but most of the stock omnipod configurations are bad. Also, combining different omnipods with different bonuses (legs had either structure, acceleration or turn rate bonus) was one way to put together different builds with different abilities, but you can't do that now.

SMN now has less torso twist, which makes it a worse brawler but doesn't affect its poptarting that much. It also has less energy weapon quirks, which reduces its already terrible DPS for anyone who doesn't have loyalty omnipods. Have fun with your OP 2LPL+2ML build without energy heat reduction. You can always equip a single SRM6 for that massive alpha strike.

Someone please explain. Are comp players using some other builds for the SHC and SMN that I don't know about? Is the CUAC10 + 3CERML Shadow Cat back? Is the SRM-Summoner taking over? What's going on?

#2 Mole

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,314 posts
  • LocationAt work, cutting up brains for a living.

Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:43 AM

Paul. Paul is what's going on.

#3 Kasumi Sumika

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 1,118 posts
  • LocationFeeding the Fires of Rubicon

Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:45 AM

Dartboard of Destiny strikes again

#4 El Bandito

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 26,736 posts
  • LocationStill doing ungodly amount of damage, but with more accuracy.

Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:49 AM

View PostTristan Winter, on 21 January 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SHC AND SMN NERF. PLZ EXPLAIN


1.
Posted Image

2.
Posted Image

#5 Albino Boo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 281 posts

Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:51 AM

View PostTristan Winter, on 21 January 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

Here's what it seems like to me:
  • SHC and SMN were underperformers for a long time, ever since they were released. SHC was outclassed by Nova and Stormcrow, SMN was outclassed by Hellbringer and Timber Wolf.
  • People struggled to find more than 1 or 2 decent builds for these mechs.
  • PGI buffed CERPPCs
  • PGI gave SMN some Energy nipple hardpoints.
  • SHC and SMN became popular poptart builds.
  • PGI nerfed SMN and SHC.
To my eyes, it seems like PGI is basically making it harder to play the SHC or SMN without poptarting PPCs, which was the main thing they were good at before.


SHC now has zero bonus leg structure and also lost structure quirks for the ECM omnipod. Weapon quirks are tied to 8-set bonuses, but most of the stock omnipod configurations are bad. Also, combining different omnipods with different bonuses (legs had either structure, acceleration or turn rate bonus) was one way to put together different builds with different abilities, but you can't do that now.

SMN now has less torso twist, which makes it a worse brawler but doesn't affect its poptarting that much. It also has less energy weapon quirks, which reduces its already terrible DPS for anyone who doesn't have loyalty omnipods. Have fun with your OP 2LPL+2ML build without energy heat reduction. You can always equip a single SRM6 for that massive alpha strike.

Someone please explain. Are comp players using some other builds for the SHC and SMN that I don't know about? Is the CUAC10 + 3CERML Shadow Cat back? Is the SRM-Summoner taking over? What's going on?



Anecdotal experience versus statistical analysis of mechs performance. You are not seeing what SMN and SHC are doing in T4 quick play. Just think of the number of lrms are overpowered threads from T5-4 players, when anyone in T1 will say the that lrms are bad.

#6 SmokeGuar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Grizzly
  • The Grizzly
  • 450 posts

Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:00 AM

Clan mechs ability to fight defensively is taken away, to put it simply.
Dire was original target, got carried to Kodiak, Marauder IIC was released nerfed from gate. Now rest of fleet follows.
This has now become PGIs patent solution to balancing.

#7 Tristan Winter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,530 posts
  • LocationNorway

Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:05 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 21 January 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

Anecdotal experience versus statistical analysis of mechs performance. You are not seeing what SMN and SHC are doing in T4 quick play. Just think of the number of lrms are overpowered threads from T5-4 players, when anyone in T1 will say the that lrms are bad.

It's not just anecdotal experience. We also have statistics of how popular SMN and SHC were before the CERPPC buff and before the loyalty omnipods and how well they performed. We can see how popular they were in the MWOWC. I don't want to dig up numbers and sources for the purposes of this thread, because it's simply not worth my time. We all know what the Summoner was like before CERPPC buff and loyalty omnipods.

As for T4-T5 statistics, we have no indications that this is how PGI is balancing the game. And it makes no sense if that's how they're doing it. Fortunately, Paul has never mentioned how certain builds or mechs have performed at T4-T5, but we have seen him mention how they performed in MWOWC. This seems to indicate a top-down rather than a bottom-up approach to balancing.

#8 Widowmaker1981

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • The Widow Maker
  • 5,030 posts
  • LocationAt the other end of the pretty lights.

Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:05 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 21 January 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:



Anecdotal experience versus statistical analysis of mechs performance. You are not seeing what SMN and SHC are doing in T4 quick play. Just think of the number of lrms are overpowered threads from T5-4 players, when anyone in T1 will say the that lrms are bad.


I dont care what mechs are doing in T4 quickplay, and neither should PGI. Balancing by potato is idiotic.

Im not saying balance by comp, but quickplay below T1/2 shouldn't be looked at, since given our extremely upward biased PSR system thats where everyone even remotely invested in the game will end up.

Edit: The PPC nipple summoner absolutely needed to be nerfed, it was out of control OP. I would have done it differently though, by sticking negative heat/ppc quirks on the loyalty omnipods and not removing the CT heat quirk. This way screws over everyone who doesnt have the loyalty pods - which are unattainable for those that dont have them already, at least for now.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 21 January 2017 - 06:13 AM.


#9 Bud Crue

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Rage
  • Rage
  • 9,882 posts
  • LocationOn the farm in central Minnesota

Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:25 AM

No explanation will be sufficient until PGI explains how a mechs performance is even determined let alone balanced relative to others performance.

They keep using phrases about how a mech is performing "relative to others", "others in its weight class", "as compared to base line values" and compared to "established target values". We don't know how they determine ANY of those things and without that understanding, any explanation of "why" will just be post facto justifications that can be read as "because we say so".

They need to explain to us the process involved in how they come up with those values and why, then share some data to illustrate how the mechs, the weapons, the characteristics at issue really are out of wack. Until then, they are doing exactly what Russ said back in April: we do the things we do "because we know best".

That aint gonna cut it.

#10 Albino Boo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 281 posts

Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:30 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 21 January 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:


I dont care what mechs are doing in T4 quickplay, and neither should PGI. Balancing by potato is idiotic.

Im not saying balance by comp, but quickplay below T1/2 shouldn't be looked at, since given our extremely upward biased PSR system thats where everyone even remotely invested in the game will end up.

Edit: The PPC nipple summoner absolutely needed to be nerfed, it was out of control OP. I would have done it differently though, by sticking negative heat/ppc quirks on the loyalty omnipods and not removing the CT heat quirk. This way screws over everyone who doesnt have the loyalty pods - which are unattainable for those that dont have them already, at least for now.

Why is your view more valid than that of tier 3 player? There are more of them than tier 1 players.

View PostTristan Winter, on 21 January 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

It's not just anecdotal experience. We also have statistics of how popular SMN and SHC were before the CERPPC buff and before the loyalty omnipods and how well they performed. We can see how popular they were in the MWOWC. I don't want to dig up numbers and sources for the purposes of this thread, because it's simply not worth my time. We all know what the Summoner was like before CERPPC buff and loyalty omnipods.

As for T4-T5 statistics, we have no indications that this is how PGI is balancing the game. And it makes no sense if that's how they're doing it. Fortunately, Paul has never mentioned how certain builds or mechs have performed at T4-T5, but we have seen him mention how they performed in MWOWC. This seems to indicate a top-down rather than a bottom-up approach to balancing.

It does not take to genius to work that aggregating all the stats from all the players and running them through a spreadsheet to compare performance and see what sits outside the normal standard deviation. Time is money, explaining to very small number of people that actually care has no upside. If you breakdown the actual analysis then some people will try and gimp the scores deliberately. Alt accounts cost nothing.

#11 jjm1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Hell Fork
  • Hell Fork
  • 1,384 posts

Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:59 AM

The nerfs hit the weaker builds first and the strong builds almost not at all. That's the problem here.

Brawling in a SHC was always an intense fight where your essentially relying on your opponent to miss. Now that its lost even more strength I cant imagine it will be used for anything other than the ECM+energy sniping that got it nerfed in the first place.

Summoner was good before nipplepeeps turned the PPC summoner into a silly high-mount meta poptart. Those quirks were there for a reason before, now every other build has to suck even more because one build is too powerful. Everyone but PGI seems to have predicted exactly this scenario.

#12 MacClearly

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Butcher
  • The Butcher
  • 908 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:02 AM

The Summoner is directly due to incessant whining from the usual 'it's not fair' and 'it's behind a paywall' crowd.

The Shadow Cat however, is far more hilarious. Although only my own theory, I strongly suspect that the spike in numbers of its 'overperformance' has a lot to with with it being the only option in FW if you run three 65 ton mechs... The spike in usage is a direct result of it being an only choice more than anything.

#13 Lily from animove

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Devoted
  • The Devoted
  • 13,891 posts
  • LocationOn a dropship to Terra

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:10 AM

I also find it quite bad that a mech gets a nerf for all it's playstyles while it is just one that makes it excel

#14 MacClearly

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Butcher
  • The Butcher
  • 908 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:12 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 21 January 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

Why is your view more valid than that of tier 3 player? There are more of them than tier 1 players.
It does not take to genius to work that aggregating all the stats from all the players and running them through a spreadsheet to compare performance and see what sits outside the normal standard deviation. Time is money, explaining to very small number of people that actually care has no upside. If you breakdown the actual analysis then some people will try and gimp the scores deliberately. Alt accounts cost nothing.


Just as you wouldn't change the size of a football across the board because it didn't fit the hands of the 12 year olds playing the game, you don't balance a game based on its worst players. A game or sport will always suffer if you water it down to the lowest common denominator. What is happening in tier 4 and 5 with people either learning the game or bad at it, is not what anyone should be considering when thinking about balance or the performance of a mech. That may sound harsh, but it is the only way to ensure that you don't turn chess into checkers...

#15 Tristan Winter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,530 posts
  • LocationNorway

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:13 AM

View Postjjm1, on 21 January 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

The nerfs hit the weaker builds first and the strong builds almost not at all. That's the problem here.

Which, incidentally, was also the criticism of what happened to the KDK-3.

#16 Bud Crue

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Rage
  • Rage
  • 9,882 posts
  • LocationOn the farm in central Minnesota

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:13 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 21 January 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

Why is your view more valid than that of tier 3 player? There are more of them than tier 1 players.
It does not take to genius to work that aggregating all the stats from all the players and running them through a spreadsheet to compare performance and see what sits outside the normal standard deviation. Time is money, explaining to very small number of people that actually care has no upside. If you breakdown the actual analysis then some people will try and gimp the scores deliberately. Alt accounts cost nothing.



I can think of one upside: If I thought they had a clue how to create that spread sheet and determine a standard deviation, and apply a practical solution using that data, then I and others might start spending money again. But as long as I and others (see the forums) are convinced that they are clueless or are "just playing darts"; the comparative downside for them is that we won't.

#17 a gaijin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,003 posts
  • LocationUS Naval Base, Yokosuka, Japan

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:14 AM

Well it sucks (Summoner degrades). That's the facts.

I've only been back 3.5 months (after a 2 yr hiatus) and since I only like piloting Summoners, if the degrades are tooo bad I have to make a decision to either use a different mech or stop playing MWO and play something else again.

Either way, I'm adjusting accordingly :P

Funny...I was right back into my old routine of pumping $150/month into MWO too.
Well, the good thing is this: these changes basically verify that MWO is not a pay-to-win game.

#18 Albino Boo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 281 posts

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:21 AM

View PostMacClearly, on 21 January 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:


Just as you wouldn't change the size of a football across the board because it didn't fit the hands of the 12 year olds playing the game, you don't balance a game based on its worst players. A game or sport will always suffer if you water it down to the lowest common denominator. What is happening in tier 4 and 5 with people either learning the game or bad at it, is not what anyone should be considering when thinking about balance or the performance of a mech. That may sound harsh, but it is the only way to ensure that you don't turn chess into checkers...



PGI has a choice, it can balance to the needs of a few hundred people and ensure they have a reasonable balance or the could balance to the needs of majority of the population and ensure they have reasonable balance. Which is in the best interest of the finances of PGI, the few hundred or the few thousand?

Edited by Albino Boo, 21 January 2017 - 07:21 AM.


#19 Bud Crue

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Rage
  • Rage
  • 9,882 posts
  • LocationOn the farm in central Minnesota

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:30 AM

View PostAlbino Boo, on 21 January 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:



PGI has a choice, it can balance to the needs of a few hundred people and ensure they have a reasonable balance or the could balance to the needs of majority of the population and ensure they have reasonable balance. Which is in the best interest of the finances of PGI, the few hundred or the few thousand?


Please expound.

Are you saying only a minority will view the latest pass in a negative light and that the larger majority will benefit or see the pass as a positive? I ask because to my mind this is another case of a pass seeming to hurt a majority of players.

I mean consider the Cataphract buff. I am very happy about it. But I am one of the Phracts more dedicated fans. I don't expect the majority of players will care. However a LOT of players run Warhammers and that nerf will hurt their performance and enjoyment to some degree.

#20 adamts01

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Death Star
  • 3,417 posts
  • LocationPhilippines

Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:35 AM

Arma 3. I was missing out all those years while waiting for PGI to fox MWO. Mechs are awesome, mechanics are solid, graphics are beautiful, team death match sucks. Planetside 2 was better, Arma 3 blows them both out of the water.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users