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Hardpoint Inflation: Is Light Mechs

BattleMechs Weapons

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#21 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 08:35 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 22 January 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:


Well, that's likely to happen regardless


Unless GodQuirks come into play, that is
They don't have GodQuirks right now
It's also a 25 tonner, but those aren't incredibly larger


It would probably be about as big as the Locust was pre-shrinkage. Which, actually, will be a pretty decent size for its mass.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 January 2017 - 08:35 PM.


#22 Kanil

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:19 PM

View Postcazidin, on 22 January 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

We can't have a 6 MG Spider! Won't somebody think of the Atlas backs!

What if we had a... 5 MG Spider?

#23 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:33 PM

View PostKanil, on 22 January 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

What if we had a... 5 MG Spider?


Weird.

#24 SuomiWarder

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:41 PM

No point in calling for quirks. Those all go away with the new experience system, getting folded into XP tree.

#25 Tristan Winter

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 01:40 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 22 January 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

FTFY

I see a lot of people using MLs. I see virtually zero people using IS SLs and SPLs, except on Locusts. I guess it's hard to get a good read on it though, given that the only IS light mechs with plenty of hardpoints are the FS9 and WLF, and they're fragile for their size, so few people use them.

That being said, I'm still not seeing any medium, heavy or assault mechs using IS SLs or SPLs. If IS SLs were better, maybe you'd see more people combining them with SRMs for brawling. But it seems their DPS isn't high enough.

View PostSuomiWarder, on 22 January 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

No point in calling for quirks. Those all go away with the new experience system, getting folded into XP tree.

Many mechs will still have "base quirks". Which means.... quirks, basically.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 22 January 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

The IS SL, SPL, and ML all need shorter cool-downs.

I agree.

#26 Shiroi Tsuki

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 02:49 AM

Add an extra Energy hardpoint on both STs for the SDR-5V while giving it jumpjet quirks

#27 Sigmar Sich

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:02 AM

Maybe ECM could be added for some mechs, instead of extra weapons. Not canon? But COM-2D can mount it, when by canon there was no Commandos with ECM ever.

Though i would love PGI to pursue development of InfoWarfare. Maybe different sensor systems (upgradeble?), with different sensor ranges, info time, additional weight/weight reduction, or something...

#28 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 07:55 AM

View PostTristan Winter, on 23 January 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

I see a lot of people using MLs. I see virtually zero people using IS SLs and SPLs, except on Locusts. I guess it's hard to get a good read on it though, given that the only IS light mechs with plenty of hardpoints are the FS9 and WLF, and they're fragile for their size, so few people use them.


Only because the alternatives suck even harder, as you know. When ERML come out, the normal ML is going to get dropped in most cases unless they tighten it up (3 heat, 10% shorter duration, ~10% shorter cooldown). The ML ought to ve a acting as a different flavored cSPL for IS Lights; trade damage, cooldown, and duration for more range. Shouldn't have a heat penalty in top of all that.

#29 JediPanther

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:12 AM

We just need to steal duke nukem's shrink ray and shrink lights so that they are small instead the size of the empire state building towering the same height as heavy mechs. That dam rescale has done more to wipe out the light class than all the nerfs of the past four years that they suffer with at every patch at least one light gets hit with the nerf bat a few dozen times.

#30 Tristan Winter

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:16 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 January 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

Only because the alternatives suck even harder, as you know. When ERML come out, the normal ML is going to get dropped in most cases unless they tighten it up (3 heat, 10% shorter duration, ~10% shorter cooldown). The ML ought to ve a acting as a different flavored cSPL for IS Lights; trade damage, cooldown, and duration for more range. Shouldn't have a heat penalty in top of all that.

So you think the IS SL and SPL should remain super-niche weapons only used by 4-5 mechs in the game, at most? Locusts, Wolfhounds and Firestarters, if that? I think I saw an IS SPL Jenner once.

Is the range so cripplingly short while also being non-negotiable, to the point where the weapons will always be super-niche?

I would like to see the 9xSL Hunchback make its return to MWO. I'd like to see heavy mechs with SLs / SPLs and assault mechs too. Whenever any weapon type is restricted to a single class of mechs, I'd say PGI has dropped the ball. And there should be a way to avoid it.

#31 Deathlike

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 03:16 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 23 January 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

So you think the IS SL and SPL should remain super-niche weapons only used by 4-5 mechs in the game, at most? Locusts, Wolfhounds and Firestarters, if that? I think I saw an IS SPL Jenner once.

Is the range so cripplingly short while also being non-negotiable, to the point where the weapons will always be super-niche?

I would like to see the 9xSL Hunchback make its return to MWO. I'd like to see heavy mechs with SLs / SPLs and assault mechs too. Whenever any weapon type is restricted to a single class of mechs, I'd say PGI has dropped the ball. And there should be a way to avoid it.


You have to remember you have to have the speed to close... and when you're doing knife fights or brawls with Lights... your speed differential starts to matter (this is why we talk about major speed increments of 10kph or so). Being a Jenner-IIC with laser having 160kph is easier to close (with the already superior/added range of Clan tech) than the IS Jenner that has a max closing speed of 150kph. This is why you see Lolcusts and Spiders close a bit better (due to the engine cap) and Commandos to a much lesser extent.

It's all relative.

#32 Tristan Winter

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 03:31 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 January 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

You have to remember you have to have the speed to close... and when you're doing knife fights or brawls with Lights... your speed differential starts to matter (this is why we talk about major speed increments of 10kph or so). Being a Jenner-IIC with laser having 160kph is easier to close (with the already superior/added range of Clan tech) than the IS Jenner that has a max closing speed of 150kph. This is why you see Lolcusts and Spiders close a bit better (due to the engine cap) and Commandos to a much lesser extent.
It's all relative.

I get all that, but I'm saying that there are plenty of Clan mediums, heavies and assaults that use SPLs, and you never see it on their IS counterparts. Hunchback, Thunderbolt (particularly Top Dog) and Battlemaster, they should all be able to make use of SLs and SPLs, either boated or combined with SRMs. They can move fast, if you put in a big engine.

Right now, the range of IS SPLs is pretty low, but if both range and DPS was improved, I'd like to see this weapon buffed to the point where it was useful across the board.

#33 Zordicron

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:06 PM

I'll do the Spider 5V because it is the first light I ever bought and still my favorite lulz berserker Spider of the lot.

Has those 2 CT laser points right?

Add:
1 to the head
1 each to the LT and RT

OR
2 each to the left and right arm.

I prefer adding them to non arms as it feels more organic for the variant in so far as aiming etc, but many would argue it could use the small "buff" of having the extra agility in the crosshair so to speak of arm mounts.

Outside of hardpoints, the new skill tree for it should have some bonzo JJ buffage available so it can return to it's flying berserker glory of beta.

#34 Deathlike

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:12 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 23 January 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

I get all that, but I'm saying that there are plenty of Clan mediums, heavies and assaults that use SPLs, and you never see it on their IS counterparts. Hunchback, Thunderbolt (particularly Top Dog) and Battlemaster, they should all be able to make use of SLs and SPLs, either boated or combined with SRMs. They can move fast, if you put in a big engine.

Right now, the range of IS SPLs is pretty low, but if both range and DPS was improved, I'd like to see this weapon buffed to the point where it was useful across the board.


It's a little more than just DPS and range though.

Just take a quick look on smurfy's for unquirked SL/SPL for the Clan and IS.

The IS SPL has an inferior DPS value compared to the Clan SL. Mind you... unless you have full frontal facetime, you won't really feel the effects... but by design, that's already an obvious problem (based on what each weapon does... for their respective tonnages).

The IS SPL ironically has the same DPH (damage per heat) as the Clan SPL. I guess that's OK. However, the DPS values are rather different. If you were to add .5 damage or even just reduce the cooldown by .25s to the IS SPL, the DPS number should be OK.

However, this also means the IS SL is screwed over bigtime. You would actually need to do both (add .5 damage AND reduce the cooldown by .25s) to make up for the gap that is the IS SPL or even the Clan SL. It's just that huge.

I'm sure we'd have to do a few iterations before the IS SL becomes relevant...

Of course... if only our balance overlord understood the proper point of normalizing where even smurfy's basic spreadsheet is far less flawed than his own spreadsheet.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 January 2017 - 04:13 PM.


#35 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 05:57 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 23 January 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

So you think the IS SL and SPL should remain super-niche weapons only used by 4-5 mechs in the game, at most? Locusts, Wolfhounds and Firestarters, if that? I think I saw an IS SPL Jenner once.

Is the range so cripplingly short while also being non-negotiable, to the point where the weapons will always be super-niche?

I would like to see the 9xSL Hunchback make its return to MWO. I'd like to see heavy mechs with SLs / SPLs and assault mechs too. Whenever any weapon type is restricted to a single class of mechs, I'd say PGI has dropped the ball. And there should be a way to avoid it.


If the SL fired faster, and PPCs fired colder, they'd have a use on some of my PPC carriers so that I'm not totally helpless if something gets close. BJ-3 with standard PPCs comes to mind, since 540 meters is actually fairly easy to cross quickly. But really, you need mass numbers of energy hard-points to make them useful on their own and there simply aren't a whole lot of IS 'Mechs that have even 8xE, let alone any more than that. Even worse, it can be argued that they generate too much heat for their output, so bigger IS brawlers don't generally take them because they don't have the cooling to spare.

And honestly, even the Clans only really bring small-class lasers on Lights or 'Mechs that can boat 10-12 of these things. They are alternatively brought on brawl TBRs, but again that's a case of extremely generous hardpoint count (4xM + 6xE...closest the IS have is the WHM-7S which actually acquits itself very well with 6xSPL + 3xSRM6 + 17x DHS and a STD310).

#36 jackswift

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 06:00 PM

Love the inflation on the Commandos. Just wish we could get 10 in-engine heatsinks no matter the rating. Kills the commandos.that somewhat rely on missiles. Still funny to do a lrm commando tho.

#37 dario03

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 07:00 PM

View PostZordicron, on 23 January 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'll do the Spider 5V because it is the first light I ever bought and still my favorite lulz berserker Spider of the lot.

Has those 2 CT laser points right?

Add:
1 to the head
1 each to the LT and RT

OR
2 each to the left and right arm.

I prefer adding them to non arms as it feels more organic for the variant in so far as aiming etc, but many would argue it could use the small "buff" of having the extra agility in the crosshair so to speak of arm mounts.

Outside of hardpoints, the new skill tree for it should have some bonzo JJ buffage available so it can return to it's flying berserker glory of beta.


Option 1 is what I came in here to post. I believe that would give the mech the same feel and you would maybe still see some running a standard engine in that mech. I also think I would give it some duration and heatgen quirks (don't know enough of new system to guess on that). Maybe some range quirks too but along with generic 10% add another ~10% to a specific laser like ML or SPL.





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