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Angry Balance Rant From Snazzy Dragon


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#1 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:08 PM

"There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines, but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance."

I don't know why PGI thinks the capacity to take larger XL engines on IS mechs compared to clan omnis is a huge factor-- the Inner Sphere equipment is so damn heavy that you end up taking a smaller XL engine anyway! Many Inner Sphere mechs are plagued with low engine caps as well, so I absolutely fail to see why this justifies a lack of buffs to the IS XL. As for the "massive boost to firepower--" THAT FIREPOWER OFTEN FAILS TO MEET CLAN FIREPOWER ANYWAY. Indeed, to even come close to clan firepower, MOST IS MECHS HAVE TO TAKE AN XL ANYWAY TO BE COMPETITIVE

Here's a fact for you: IS XL can't lose a side torso. A clan XL can. With the damage transfer mechanic in play, that means a clan mech can use its dead side as a shield to protect their CT from 60% of incoming damage-- and that's in addition to being able to use their other side torso's armor. This is why we saw almost exclusively clan heavies and assaults within the World tournament-- they are extremely durable, carry better payloads, and have better equiment all around, and the STD engine for IS can't even come close to the level of firepower needed to compete with clan.

Most structure bonuses and armor bonuses fail to make up for that and this is why clan mechs are at the top of every weight class-- they pack better equipment, faster speeds on average, higher alpha strikes, better heat sink boating, better range, and the clan XL gives them momumental durability that puts the IS XL to absolute shame.

And to sum it up: IS Engine takes 2 more slots than the clan counterpart! Many weapon combinations are not possible within the same side torso with an XL, such as dual AC10, dual UAC5, AC/20-- and even if they were possible to slot in they would not be viable options on anything under 85 tons because IS equipment is monumentally heavy in comparison. Ammo and heat sink limitations would make it so.

Here's a news flash, too-- a marauder 3R is commonly fitted with a gauss rifle and 2 ER PPCs, and barely enough heat sinks to be cool enough to sustain for more than a couple volleys. An XL is absolutely out of the question because of the side torso death-- so the mech will be FAR slower than a timber wolf with the same loadout.
Spoiler


But wait! You can fit the same armament of a gauss and 2 PPCs on a hunchback IIC, have enough DHS to stay heat neutral, and have plenty of ammo, for 25 tons less! In addition, that mech will have the benefits of the cXL engine! And that's not even the optimal build that utilizes all of its high mounts!


As for this little tidbit.....



Warhammer Design Notes: The Warhammer consistently performs beyond other 'Mechs within its weight class, on both the Clan and IS side.

The XL requirement to make a competitive Warhammer loadout is already punching holes in that reasoning-- and what the heck is the Warhammer competing against?

The IS heavies are made up of garbage, garbage, and more garbage, with only a select few viable chassis-- and within those chassis only a select few variants are actually good.

The dragon, quickdraw, archer, orion, and cataphract are absolute trash after nerfs, rescales, and bad geometry, and many of these have never been good choices to begin with. These mechs offer no competition to the warhammer-- NO S*** THEY'RE GOING TO BE OUTPERFORMED!

For the remaining heavies-- the rifleman and jagermech suffer from their tonnage limitations and their high mounts do not save them from extremely fragile XL reliance, lack of tonnage for bigger guns, and inability to take both endo steel and ferro fibrous armor for most of their builds. Indeed, these mechs are outclassed by the summoner and even the hunchback IIC-- it is downright sad that a clan medium can outright outclass an Inner Sphere heavy like that.

The black knight, marauder, thunderbolt, and grasshopper have huge profiles compared to the warhammer-- the sheer amount of surface area to hit on these mechs makes the warhammer a no-brainer choice over these mechs.

But the fact of the matter it is incredibly stupid to nerf the warhammer rather than buff the underperforming heavies. It won't fix the faction imbalance and will only exaggerate it further.

As for the warhammer outperforming the night gyr and timber wolf and even the summoner? LOL! Proof, please! There's no way in hell that any comp player and decent player is going to buy into that bulls*** without facts!

Regardless, it is disappointing that PGI truly believes that there is no tech imbalance and that they think quirks are going to magically fix bad chassis-- and historically, any IS chassis that even came close to clan levels in performance has been nerfed, hard. AC5 cooldown dragon had to expose itself almost entirely because of its mounts and only has 60 tons of armor and structure-- but that warranted a nerf. Black knight and blackjack dared to have the kind of durability you can see on a clan mech? Nerf. Thunderbolt dared to have an XL PPC gimmick build that gave the CERPPC a run for its money? Nerf!

Meh. End rant.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 23 January 2017 - 11:11 PM.


#2 Scout Derek

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:11 PM

Hey don't worry, us clanners don't have to deal with you inner spheres getting a engine bu-

Reads 40% Clan XL engine nerf


Fuuuu-

#3 RestosIII

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:12 PM

You didn't mention the Cute Fox nerf. 0/10, pass Go, do not collect $200.

#4 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:13 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 23 January 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

Hey don't worry, us clanners don't have to deal with you inner spheres getting a engine bu-

Reads 40% Clan XL engine nerf


Fuuuu-


You won't even notice it.

#5 Warglbargl

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:18 PM

View PostRestosIII, on 23 January 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

You didn't mention the Cute Fox nerf. 0/10, pass Go, do not collect $200.


Kit Fox was overperforming Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#6 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:19 PM

View PostRestosIII, on 23 January 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

You didn't mention the Cute Fox nerf. 0/10, pass Go, do not collect $200.


Lights in general have been nerfed extremely hard but I've had more success running a kit fox than a raven lately.

#7 Scout Derek

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:21 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 January 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:


You won't even notice it.


Oh yeah... cause I'll be still alive.

But I like playing IS mechs too.... I'd like to XL and live like clan tech can...

ಠ╭╮ಠ

#8 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:24 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 23 January 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

Oh yeah... cause I'll be still alive.

But I like playing IS mechs too.... I'd like to XL and live like clan tech can...

ಠ╭╮ಠ


I'd like to be able to take a few more hits, would prefer it be through having more hit-points than cXL mechanics on isXL, but at this point I'd just be happy for PGI's game design team to get their collective heads screwed on straight.

#9 Scout Derek

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:31 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 January 2017 - 11:24 PM, said:


I'd like to be able to take a few more hits, would prefer it be through having more hit-points than cXL mechanics on isXL, but at this point I'd just be happy for PGI's game design team to get their collective heads screwed on straight.


Oddly enough you're making me now think they're planning to implement a skill tree that buffs IS XLs when used.

#10 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:33 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 23 January 2017 - 11:31 PM, said:

Oddly enough you're making me now think they're planning to implement a skill tree that buffs IS XLs when used.


I wouldn't trust that hope, not by a long-shot.

I'm expecting buffs for anything to cap out at 10%, and you need a lot more than 10% to make isXL work; you need 33% at a minimum applied to the sides, and that's just counting total hit-points and not the appropriate split between armor and structure.

#11 MechaBattler

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:37 PM

I honestly feel like they're not really trying at the moment. They must be banking on the skill system having some effect on balance. Which makes me worry about what they're doing with it that would make them think that.

#12 El Bandito

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:40 PM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 23 January 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

For the remaining heavies-- the rifleman and jagermech suffer from their tonnage limitations and their high mounts do not save them from extremely fragile XL reliance, lack of tonnage for bigger guns, and inability to take both endo steel and ferro fibrous armor for most of their builds. Indeed, these mechs are outclassed by the summoner and even the hunchback IIC-- it is downright sad that a clan medium can outright outclass an Inner Sphere heavy like that.


Jagers and Riflemen also suffer from convergence issues when leading the target due to how far their arm mounts are from each other. Which is why best mechs use high torsi mounts--and Clans have such mechs in spades.

#13 Tarogato

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:41 PM

What if I told you...

clan mechs are typically very close to death by the time they've lost a side torso, so they might as well have innersphere XL anyways?

At least... that's my experience anyways. Generally when my side torso is gone, my CT is about to blow. I rarely lose a side torso and keep chuggin' along.

#14 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:44 PM

View PostTarogato, on 23 January 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

What if I told you...

clan mechs are typically very close to death by the time they've lost a side torso, so they might as well have innersphere XL anyways?

At least... that's my experience anyways. Generally when my side torso is gone, my CT is about to blow. I rarely lose a side torso and keep chuggin' along.


When PPFLD wasn't ruling the roost, you could get away with it. Now that PPFLD has returned to the fore, you can't. One or two hits is all it takes to put you on the permanent defensive with isXL, after which point harassers can easily polish you off.

cXL was invaluable during MWOWC. Even the WHM-6R often sported a STD 270 to avoid the isXL issue, something you can no longer realistically do because UAC/5 run too hot in conjunction with PPCs for only 10x DHS to handle.

#15 Scout Derek

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:49 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 January 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:


I wouldn't trust that hope, not by a long-shot.

I'm expecting buffs for anything to cap out at 10%, and you need a lot more than 10% to make isXL work; you need 33% at a minimum applied to the sides, and that's just counting total hit-points and not the appropriate split between armor and structure.


and who's to say that they're all going to be +10% capped buffs at most?

For all we know, they could bump up some quite a bit, at the cost of investing more points into that part of the tree.

#16 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:51 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 23 January 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

and who's to say that they're all going to be +10% capped buffs at most?

For all we know, they could bump up some quite a bit, at the cost of investing more points into that part of the tree.


Historical precedence. I'm open to being surprised, but you need big numbers, bigger than what PGI usually implements. And, given that they think increasing the cXL heat penalty means something, they will think they can get away with smaller numbers.

#17 naterist

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 12:00 AM

View PostTarogato, on 23 January 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

What if I told you...

clan mechs are typically very close to death by the time they've lost a side torso, so they might as well have innersphere XL anyways?

At least... that's my experience anyways. Generally when my side torso is gone, my CT is about to blow. I rarely lose a side torso and keep chuggin' along.


the difference is a clanner doesnt have to torso twist if they arent really feeling it, and its les dangerous than if is was to just facetank. not that facetanking is recommended either side, but it helps, id also completely forgoten about the dead side. thats one of the biggest reasons i use a standerd IS side and try and make it work, unless i HAVE to bring an xl for something specific, like a grasshopper or a quickdraw. id forgoten clanners could do that, that seems slightly f'd to me.

#18 DovisKhan

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 12:05 AM

View PostMechaBattler, on 23 January 2017 - 11:37 PM, said:

I honestly feel like they're not really trying at the moment. They must be banking on the skill system having some effect on balance. Which makes me worry about what they're doing with it that would make them think that.


That's my bet, they will try out some stuff they have ideas to put in the skill tree, it's just a test on live server

#19 Duke Nedo

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 12:13 AM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 23 January 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

Rant.


+1, you tell them boy!

Only objection is that the QKD-5K isn't that bad. :)

Seriously though, nerfing the WHM and refusing to balance XLs is bollocks. Things like that will efficiently kill the game. I have ran out of patience, stopped buying things before christmas and will take a break now for as long as I think faction balance is screwed over. IMO they could safely roll back quirks to the April values because since then clans have gotten KDKs and NGRs while IS mechs have been repeatedly dequirked, and PPFLD has made a strong comeback. My old WHM-6R that worked like a charm this summer and have spent some time in the garage while I've played NGRs struggled like hell yesterday at it's farewell party. Side torsos flying left and right. Not much fun in stalingrad, no.

#20 RestosIII

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 12:18 AM

View Postnaterist, on 24 January 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:


the difference is a clanner doesnt have to torso twist if they arent really feeling it


Man, I really need to run some non-lore builds. When my instinctual reaction to something like that is a snort laugh because of the TBR ears being in my head, it's a sign I've been running them too long.





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