50 replies to this topic

[Soapy Squirrel]

well this is a fun read, and with that said.
omg, you know if you think you cant win because you are IS then switch sides, it is not that hard to do. funny thing, im a fragging typing game playing squirrel and i dont complain like a wimpy child because someone beats me. i try to get better, i try to learn how to play as a team, how to make my mechs better, how to make myself better. My Gods the wimpy whining childlike behavior ive seen is typical and still amazing all in one.
LEARN TO PLAY BETTER
ohh yeah for you kids that dont seem to like meta,, hahahaha dont complain when you get killed with no damage,
there is a reason it is a meta build, because it spits out the most damage and it works. yes you can tweek it for your own play style, and yes messing with builds is half the fun, but dont complain when you die horribly because your custom build didnt work and it sucks.
i personally wish PGI would stop messing with the mechs, leave them alone, leave the game alone, we the players will adapt.
KIDS STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT BALANCE, REALLY ITS YOU,, LEARN TO PLAY BETTER.

[tokumboh]

Soapy Squirrel, on 03 February 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

well this is a fun read, and with that said.
omg, you know if you think you cant win because you are IS then switch sides, it is not that hard to do. funny thing, im a fragging typing game playing squirrel and i dont complain like a wimpy child because someone beats me. i try to get better, i try to learn how to play as a team, how to make my mechs better, how to make myself better. My Gods the wimpy whining childlike behavior ive seen is typical and still amazing all in one.
LEARN TO PLAY BETTER
ohh yeah for you kids that dont seem to like meta,, hahahaha dont complain when you get killed with no damage,
there is a reason it is a meta build, because it spits out the most damage and it works. yes you can tweek it for your own play style, and yes messing with builds is half the fun, but dont complain when you die horribly because your custom build didnt work and it sucks.
i personally wish PGI would stop messing with the mechs, leave them alone, leave the game alone, we the players will adapt.
KIDS STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT BALANCE, REALLY ITS YOU,, LEARN TO PLAY BETTER.

Ok let me first say although I have been playing this game for some time I am a very casual player I came into this game because of nostalgia as I played the MW2-MW4.

The reality is that there are good mechs and there are not so good mechs. even with Clans and IS. For example most people would take WHM compared to CTF, although I love the 0XP, I think that some mechs have a combination of hardpoint location location hitboxes mobility and armour that just make them good.

Some pilots could take Urbie a get a kill and 200 DMG consistently which does not make the Urbie a good mech, it makes them superior pilots.

The problem I see with balance is that it has become a mythical quest. The problem is you are trying to balance two things by using different metrics and hoping it comes out the same it like saying if I have 3 banana and 2 oranges that is equal to 10 strawberries and 30 blueberries. I'd have prefered that they made Clan as per lore and set it as a 12 v 10 type arrangement. because at least we would have a wealth of data to say why we do this. The community is small and as such you will have the superior pilots, we also have a community that pretty games FW with the better players switching on mass to between Clan and IS and I feel this causes as much of a problem to the data collected as anything. I feel there is such a skill level divergence that is often brought together in a manner that more popular games just don't have and we need to be mindful of that.
There is an argument of just get gud and I believe that is in some ways apt there is also an argument that says that some mechs will be just better than others or more suitable than others. For example if you have a brawler mech you need a good team of snipers in many maps to keep the opposition hunkered down while you advance. Your average soldier spend 30 weeks learning how to do that in basic training with full instruction, we seem to believe that you may get away with a PC mouse keyboard and high speed internet, and on the off chance a tutorial and then some youtube videos ;-)

I believe that Clans do have an advantage on the PPC Gauss meta builds, I think that clan mechs because of their lack of customisation are easier to build to personal preferences. Do these make a massive difference, I don't think so are they game changing again I don't think so but does it bestow advantage yes and the further down the skill level I believe the more the advantage is.

[Outlaw]

And here is the problem with CW. You have to cater to both those who want to drop solo, and those who want to drop in groups, and since there are fears of low population floating about they have to put both of those players together. That was the beauty of leagues ran by the community in the days of MW4, there were no 'solo' droppers because the leagues wouldn't allow it, you had to be part of a unit to participate. Now i'm not saying they should enforce that here with CW, but instead i'm saying in hind sight they should have developed tools for players to set up their own leagues, as well as a more robust lobby system with a full browser. Instead we got what we have now because players kept begging for it.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

As someone who is relatively new to this game I have to ask something. If the difference isn't the Mechs but the players, then does that mean that all those Clan players that are dominating the maps, are they just better players and/or better organized than the IS players? From a statistical standpoint that just doesn't sound very likely, although it could be possible.

Otherwise if balance is an issue, then the only way I see it being truly fixed is they have to blur the lines between them. Either make them all like Clan Mechs or (preferably because they have far more choices at customizing) make them all like IS. Make the differences primarily cosmetic while leveling the playing field. This would render any arguments of imbalance as invalid, while at the same time opening up a whole new world of possibilities for Clan players.
....

It is both. For the Clan side, you can throw just about anything together and do okay whereas with IS side many component systems are not in parity (the reason for the amount of quirks), especially the engine foundation, most IS mechs do not have an abundance of hardpoints when compared to most Clan mechs.

In fact, when the first set preordered (RLC) Clans omnis were released June 2014, the IS had its major quirk rollout July 2014, then Nov 2014 1st saw the 1st Quirk update followed by CW (faction play) being released Dec 2014.

All of that though is built on a foundation where part of it is sticking to TT rules, which includes the engines, that appears to have parity before being having a part of the engine destroyed, resulting in death for the IS mechs vs movement/heat penalties for the Clan mechs based on the engine penalty from a boardgame that used dice/probability for hit/miss then location for each weapon. For MWO, it is an actual flag, isXL-side torso destroyed as it has 3 engine crit slots-mech dead vs cXL-side torso destroyed-2 engine crit slots-20% movement/now 40%(previously 20%) heat penalty. But no actual engine crits destroyed elsewhere or even considered.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 February 2017 - 09:11 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

MadIrish, on 30 January 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

Not! Reducing IS weapon and equipment tonnage will allow IS to load out more comparable alphas. Or broad sweeping nerfs to clan mech torso hit boxes so they get less damage spread across components to balance IS lower alphas. IS mechs mostly have huge *ss center torso hit boxes, are slower and have less range, lower alphas, and simply get outclassed when comparable to clan mechs. There simply is no appreciable advantage to an IS. A separate solo queue fixes nothing just allows the clanners to stomp in two separate queues. Balance requires more than a different queue it requires offsetting the advantage of one thing with another and there is none of that as far as I can see.

...and yet another "clanz op" thread.

[Devrij]

I have to say, clan tech is pretty op. I have 25 IS mechs, and just started playing clan mechs over the last month and it's like playing on easy mode. I'm getting more kills, doing more damage, and getting killed less. How anyone can say that lighter weapons that do more damage with much longer range on faster mechs (which can run xl engines and still lose a side torso) is balanced is beyond me.

The consequence is that they run hot, but if clanners were a bit less greedy they could run builds with similar damage outputs to IS mechs and enjoy the range and speed while also running cooler for brawls.

I should add that I still play IS for faction play, purely because a part of me hates taking the easy route. Stomping clan mechs is so much more satisfying than wrecking a king crab in a hbk 2c because you have the same damage output but you're more nimble and can fly. It's like punching a child.

Edited by Devrij, 06 March 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Clans are not OP

IS is not OP

Teamwork *IS* OP

Communication *IS* OP

Also, if you want to win, you have to act like it. You need to bring the right mechs with the right builds, and group up with the right people. Possibly in reverse order lol...

If you do not put yourself in the best position to win and your opponent does, then you cannot point at their tech and cry foul.

[ShaneoftheDead]

MovinTarget, on 06 March 2017 - 06:14 AM, said:

If you do not put yourself in the best position to win and your opponent does, then you cannot point at their tech and cry foul.

Well, I do try to put myself in the best position available for IS pilots. So, allow me to point at the Clan Mech advantages and cry "FOUL" on their behalf.

First, are the physical designs of the Mechs themselves. Most of the newer clan Mechs have high mount points for their weapons giving them superior poking abilities on hills. That means their weapons shoot from high on their shoulders instead of from their wait like most IS Mechs so those Mechs do not have to expose their entire upper half just to shoot. HBK-IIC's and SCH's have amazing low profiles for hill poking. You have essentially zero chance at returning fire on them in certain situations...mostly because you cannot even see them.

Second, the general Clan Tech advantages. Longer range, Targeting Computers that enhance critical hit chance. (which Russ admitted was broken while talking about the Tech Tree PTS when he said they were fixing a bug that was giving them too much extra crit chance and also not registering IS crit chance properly...don't think it was the one where he called us cheapskates), and AC & LRM spam that blinds pilots essentially locking them down. Small advantages that do add up over a match. That crit chance thing is actually a huge Clan advantage. Saw a few matches in where IS could not even open the gate on wave 1 because of all the Gauss/ERPPC nuking any mech that dared try. (those matches end with Clans jumping the closed gates and spawn camping our 2nd-4th waves) Oh, and the NGT that gets to ignore hot map heat penalties.

Third, Pop-tarting. Apparently, that is Clan Tech now. I'm having trouble thinking of a single IS mech that can do it well. Tell me, do Clanners dread PNT's or SDR's? But the Pop-tarting ability of the NGT, HBK-IIC, & SCH are well known to any IS pilot.

Fourth, when not Pop-Tarting I see these Clan mechs jumping up on top of walls, buildings, etc. (where no IS mech can reach and still carry similar fire-power) then proceed to rain on all the poor IS mech's heads with Gauss & PPC and various laser vomit. At which point the IS mech has 2 options, get pinned down and die a slow death to poking and air strikes or try to push and get shot in the back and die quickly. (I'm looking at YOU Vitric Forge!)

Fifth, certain Clan mechs take an excessive amount of damage before they go down. This is likely related to the IS crit bug Russ spoke of. MAD-IIC & EBJ come to mind. I see EBJ's face-tank AS7's and win, just a little torso shake to shrug off the damage. The LCT is like this, but that is about it for IS mechs and it is far less deadly.

Sadly, there is a balance issue with this game and it's pretty bad. Which causes the game to not be fun for half the players. And people generally stop playing games that are not fun. As illustrated here: http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All
4,100 down to 1,600. And how many of those remaining are the dedicated pre-steam players that launch through Steam now?

The base game is fun, the Mechlab is fun. Where the fun leaves this game is in Faction Play and that is largely due to the 5 points above.

[MovinTarget]

ShaneoftheDead, on 18 March 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well, I do try to put myself in the best position available for IS pilots. So, allow me to point at the Clan Mech advantages and cry "FOUL" on their behalf.

Wall of text redacted.

I understand your position but if you read all the forums you'll see there is nearly a 1:1 ratio of IS salt to Clan salt.

Seriously.

For every post from an IS-lifer extolling the benefits of clan tech there is a clan fanboy DOING THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT IS TECH.

Look on the current thread about all the new tech coming out and look at all the clan players whining about the kewl toys IS will be getting.

Go ahead and say it... I dare you to say "Well, if they can't win with clan tech they suck"

If you say that then they can counter with "How can you lose when you R so tanky and stuff?"

Consider this.

Maybe you are a closet clanner...

Maybe your playstyle is more conducive to the tech they possess.

Maybe you are not bringing the right mechs/loadouts or not dropping with the right players for your style.

There are so many other reasons that are harder to accept than "tech imbalance", I get that, but the reality is that balance is impossible in an RTS because there is no dice roll for every shot fired or maneuver made like in TT. Everyone has a different ping and capacity for twitch playing.

If you want to be good in FP, hang out with MJ12 or some of the other really really good IS units and see how they roll. I've dropped with them and against them and they know their crap. They may not win 100% of the time but they win alot. I know there are other good unit out there but I drop a lot with MJ12 when I'm IS so that's who I can recommend that's loyalist... tons of good merc units that move back and forth though.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Well, I do try to put myself in the best position available for IS pilots. So, allow me to point at the Clan Mech advantages and cry "FOUL" on their behalf.

Moving Target is not discounting that there are some things that could be changed to bring better parity between the technologies, but in general bringing viable builds, teamwork and communicating generally is what makes the most difference.

And remember, currently IS has a weight advantage with the primarily reason, not the only but the primary reason as noted by PGI was due to the better/more successful merc units going Clan, units that brings load outs that are more in synergy with their battle plans.

But in a pug vs pug match, it is the team that works together, communicates and moves together that has the advantage. But if a IS drop only has 25% of their units push forward when called, that is 4 mechs/pilots that were wasted, then it is 12vs8, clean up time.

Not withstanding, there are issues that PGI has created, such as sticking to their guns by keeping the isXL fragile with the death of one side torso. Even if the isXL was changed to survive one ST loss, it would help some but currently IS does not have an answer for UAC other than UAC5, and only a 3 or 4 available mechs that could field a pair but not 3-4. But a durable isXL and/or LFE (bandaid for current isXL). A durable isXL would allow more mechs to field mix weapons more effectively instead of running all energy or missiles or a few ballistics, which does get boring but to do anything else actually hampers yourself and the drop group.

But for the ones complaining, are you dropping as a pug or as part of a group of any size? Dropping as a pug is where the biggest discrepancy lies, more so for IS pugs than for Clan pugs.

Edit just a reminder of how far off PGI is and was about "balancing" the techs. When Clans were released the cXL had NO penalties for the loss of one side torso but they would die with both ST gone, but no other penalties. How fraks was that? The initial heat penalty was added 10-07-14 two months before CW was opened up (no in-game VOIP at the time..) then the movement penalty was not added until over a year later. During that time though many IS mechs did have some over the top quirks but those continued to be whittled away over time, and PGI has only making changes primarily to heatsinks for both sides several times.

17-JUN-2014 Clan Release - pre-order release
19-JUL-2014 Converted all existing IS mechs to new quirk system
07-OCT-2014 Clan XL - Heat Penalty w/loss of one side torso
04-NOV-2014 IS Weapon Major Quirks pass
09-DEC-2014 1st Quirk Update (Major changes in weapon quirks, esp T-bolt 9S:ERPPC /Dragons /Grid Iron Gauss Rifle additions)
11-DEC-2014 Community Warfare (aka Faction Warfare to Faction Play)
17-FEB-2015 Initial in-game VOIP release
01-DEC-2015 Skill Tree Reduction, ERLM/smaller Clan Energy weapons max range reduced, loss of C-XL torso/speed reduction

As can be seen, PGI keeps putting brakes on both Clan and IS tech without fixing some of the baseline. Communication and teamwork though is where it is at which can overcome some of the deficiencies. The more effective it is the harder it is to overcome it, regardless of the tech. Of both sides, IS units have more to overcome than Clan units.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 19 March 2017 - 02:06 PM.

[ShaneoftheDead]

And mere days later, PGI agrees with me here...

Quote

As indicated back in January, we have identified a series of core imbalances that we will be attempting to evaluate

Quote

When it came to the Critical Hit system for Clans, we've identified that this was a fundamental point of imbalance