50 replies to this topic

[MadIrish]

Faction Play seems about as balanced as Dolly Parton [Redacted] since the last patch.

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 February 2017 - 03:26 PM.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

I already posted it on the lurmer thread but I think a solo and group queue would fix a lot.
2 bucket rule same as quick play maybe also divided tug of war.

[MadIrish]

Not! Reducing IS weapon and equipment tonnage will allow IS to load out more comparable alphas. Or broad sweeping nerfs to clan mech torso hit boxes so they get less damage spread across components to balance IS lower alphas. IS mechs mostly have huge *ss center torso hit boxes, are slower and have less range, lower alphas, and simply get outclassed when comparable to clan mechs. There simply is no appreciable advantage to an IS. A separate solo queue fixes nothing just allows the clanners to stomp in two separate queues. Balance requires more than a different queue it requires offsetting the advantage of one thing with another and there is none of that as far as I can see.

Edited by MadIrish, 30 January 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[Tiantara]

- List IS mech you use and what is their builds... just interesting. Maybe you bought not nice mech which have "lore based limitation".
I have half mech IS which I may call sturdy and good for play for some reason after long tweaking:

Light:
Locust Pirate's Bane
Locust 1E(C)
Raven 3L
Raven 4X
Raven 2X
Wolfhound - 2
Wolfhound - 1
Wolfhound - 1B

Medium:
BlackJack - 1
BlackJack - 1DC
BlackJack - 2(L)
Centurion - AH
Centurion - A
Centurion - AL
Cicada - 3M
Cicada - 3F
Cicada - 2A(C)
Crab - 27B
Crab - 20
Crab - 27
Hunchback - Grid Iron
Hunchback - 4G
Hunchback - 4H
Hunchback - 4SP
Kintaro - 18 (best from Kintaro for my taste)

Heavy:
Cataphract - 1X
Cataphract - 0PX
Cataphract - 3L(L)
Catapult - C4
Catapult - K2
Catapult - Jester
Catapult - C1
Marauder - 5D
Marauder - 3R
Marauder - 5M
Warhammer - Black Widow
Warhammer - 6D
Warhammer - 7S
Warhammer - 6R

Assault:
Atlas - K
Atlas - D-DC
Atlas - S
Battlemaster - 2C
Battlemaster - 3M
Battlemaster - 1G
King Crab - 000
King Crab - 0000
King Crab - 000B(C)
Mauler - MX90
Mauler - 1P
Mauler - 1R
Zeus - 9S2 (pretty complex to build mech but nice too)

Edited by Tiantara, 31 January 2017 - 12:33 AM.

[M A N T I S]

... and this is the danger of continually propagating the myth of unbalanced play. People all start believing in it and using it as the primary scapegoat of any loss or shortcomings in their performance or their teams' performance. Whatever slight advantage the clan mechs may or may not hold is quite honestly irrelevant compared to the dependance on your own performance. I grouped with some unit mates and randoms on the old FRR hub yesterday, and won match after match after match. We only lost a single match all day long. I invited guys that I know to be disciplined in their positioning, have good heat management, not afraid to be aggressive and can aim...

Please, please. It's not the tech imbalance. Just practice, see what successful people are doing and try to emulate them. The outcomes of these matches are far more dependent on the skill gap than any perceived tech gap.

[MovinTarget]

What exactly is your definition of balance?

Are you putting yourself in a position to win, or are you dropping solo with only what you want to drop instead of what you should drop?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MadIrish, on 27 January 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Faction Play seems about as balanced as Dolly Parton with only one mammery since the last patch.

Last patch buffed a lot of IS mechs and nerfed some clan mechs and blanket nerfed Clan XLs though.

[Lily from animove]

PGI can't balance the community. last patch was more nerfs to clans, and if blance is still off and even more than before, well then try to figure out the cause, but the patch was not the cause.

[ManusDei]

Poor kid is still looking for a superior mech that will outclass every other mech. LOL He needs help.. Hate to break the bad news to you kid but there is no superior mech. But you can keep looking if you like. As far as balance goes you have never seen the game more balanced since its inception. I should know I was here in Alpha and beta. Your free to disagree and you probably will with your insane attempt to find a "superior" mech.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

clans are definitely in an advantage when it comes to range fighting or simply the ammount of laser vomit they can put out because of free pickable omnipods and lower weapon weights.
You can counter that by getting massed up, close to them as IS BUT you cant count on that
teams full of random people who regret to communicate beeing able to achieve that.
So basically an organized team in most cases whipes a random people team.
I woud be intrested to watch a match of 1 good clan pre-made vs. 1 good IS premade.
Feel free to post a link of such a match d(@_@)d

[MovinTarget]

SHRedo, on 31 January 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

clans are definitely in an advantage when it comes to range fighting or simply the ammount of laser vomit they can put out because of free pickable omnipods and lower weapon weights.
You can counter that by getting massed up, close to them as IS BUT you cant count on that
teams full of random people who regret to communicate beeing able to achieve that.
So basically an organized team in most cases whipes a random people team.
I woud be intrested to watch a match of 1 good clan pre-made vs. 1 good IS premade.
Feel free to post a link of such a match d(@_@)d

This is kind of what I'm posing my question about... People disappointed with their experience in this game without offering details about how they are going about it are basically trolling with salt-n-snowflakes...

There is really no way to balance a game that relies heavily on not only the tech being balanced (but different), but the PLAYERS on both sides would have to be similar in their grasp of their own mechs inherent strengths/weaknesses and those of their enemies. On top of that you'd have to have "strategic balance" where both teams have equivalent coordination.

*that* would be "balance" and it would be rather impossible to achieve that every.single.game. when you have solos dropping yolo.

I hear people ask for the 2 bucket system again... I still maintain that if people can't take the time to group up for a team-based game then their experience, and that of their team, will suffer.

It makes me think of WoW when people try to solo instances and raids, I know its PvE but you are essentially going against the intended design and you should understand that by doing so, you will probably get crushed.

If PGI intended for FP to be "end-game content" then they need to treat it as such:
- No solos, minimum group of 2
- No Trial Mechs
- Some sort of Gate/attunement (i.e. Master one chassis at each class (which means you have at least 12 elited mechs)

[BLOOD WOLF]

Lily from animove, on 31 January 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

PGI can't balance the community. last patch was more nerfs to clans, and if blance is still off and even more than before, well then try to figure out the cause, but the patch was not the cause.

too bad, people are still running around screaming. Trying to change everything in the book. Asking people to actually figure out something is a alien concept to MWO players. nerfs and buffs, and when they happen, yell at the person who makes nerfs and buffs.

Got tired of facepalming every time I saw a comment talking about they are just randomly nerfing things when I could easily find some thread or post postulating the worst ideas I have ever seen.

The round table is a good example. People trying to figure something out turns into a mess of ideas and everybody just want's to put their idea forward. Instead of taking the time to examine carefully every detail.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 31 January 2017 - 07:26 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Gate FP so that you have to have some demonstrable capacity to contribute to a game before you can join FP. Then give FP participants awesome rewards for playing. People performing below a certain metric are given a "timeout" to revisit their approach.

It creates a need to get better, and *gasp* learn how to play... People won't be able to just slum their way to rewards by getting carried/dragging their team down, they have to contribute.

[D V Devnull]

More talk about "balanced-or-not"... Let's see... PGI keeps hitting with Nerf Bat, then doesn't fix the Clan Tonnage Limit... I think PGI needs to reset Clan Invasion Tonnage back to 250 now. Clans are currently fighting on a significant disadvantage. Of course, if PGI would just make IS XL Engines as durable as Clans, then all weapons could be returned to their original, pre-balancing values. Further, quirks would become likely unnecessary, and all Mechs could get away with having 90-degree-minimum torso twists. Plus, the upcoming skill tree changes would likely be unnecessary. But then, would PGI do something that would fix their issues forever? Probably not, even though it would save them so much grief.

~D. V. "Already seeing 'Across The Board Buffing' needed since Marauder IIC release..." Devnull

[Danjo San]

MovinTarget, on 31 January 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

If PGI intended for FP to be "end-game content" then they need to treat it as such:
- No solos, minimum group of 2
- No Trial Mechs
- Some sort of Gate/attunement (i.e. Master one chassis at each class (which means you have at least 12 elited mechs)

There is often the perception of solo=bad, group=good.
If one of the top players gets in line solo, he will do good.
if 2 terribads form a group they will do bad.
if a great experienced player creates an alternate account and drops full trial he will perform good.
if a bad player has a dropdeck full of equipped and mastered mechs, he will still perform bad.

the only gate that makes sense is a mandatory mission in the academy, it has to be hard enough to function as a gate, but easy enough to let enough players in, so that the mode doesn't dry out.
Any other gate does not help:
-X-amount of games gate: I've seen players understand the game quick and perform well, and at the same time I have seen players that have been playing for 3-4 years and have yet not understood how to be a contribution to the team.
-no trails gate: Then they buy 4 mechs and have still not understood what it takes. And when a good player can drop in 4 trials, only use 2 of them and do top damage, call the shots, and get a solid amount of kills, above the average composition of the team, that gate is proven to be false.
point is you want "good players" to be in the endgame. Make them earn their access. Do it by a mission, have CaptnAdams explain the ways of FP, the modes, how to open gates, where the generator windows are, basic strategies

[MovinTarget]

D V Devnull, on 31 January 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

More talk about "balanced-or-not"...

Because balance is a rather subjective term here. I keep asking people to define balance and no one will offer their definition. I am willing to bet for most it is:
"I want the game to work in a way that I can play my way and have a shot at winning, even if the other team worked really hard to be an elite team of killing machines and trained for this exact map/mode and brought the mechs to pwn."

Some even think balance is "I want everything the other side has, without losing my advantages" granted, they'll never admit it...

Because, right now a superior opponent on either side will beat an inferior opponent, even if that inferior opponent has <insert personable bias as to which tech is better>.

The quest for "balance" is silly one beyond a point.

D V Devnull, on 31 January 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

I think PGI needs to reset Clan Invasion Tonnage back to 250 now. Clans are currently fighting on a significant disadvantage.

They seem to have a more active population (I had to wait in queue to get a game when CSJ last week) and boast a generally higher win percentage. If all the mercs went IS as people predicted, how can this still be if they are facing a significant disadvantage? It seems that those that aren't succeeding should consult with those that are and plumb their secrets... then again this could be applied to both sides.

D V Devnull, on 31 January 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

Of course, if PGI would just make IS XL Engines as durable as Clans, then all weapons could be returned to their original, pre-balancing values.

Lets just hope they offer the IS version in the Tech upgrade so we get that option but without the lore-ists raging. I'm not entirely convinced such a simple change would resolve all that much... probably just create a new IS meta for clanners to complain about....

[MovinTarget]

Danjo San, on 31 January 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

There is often the perception of solo=bad, group=good.
If one of the top players gets in line solo, he will do good.
if 2 terribads form a group they will do bad.
if a great experienced player creates an alternate account and drops full trial he will perform good.
if a bad player has a dropdeck full of equipped and mastered mechs, he will still perform bad.

the only gate that makes sense is a mandatory mission in the academy, it has to be hard enough to function as a gate, but easy enough to let enough players in, so that the mode doesn't dry out.
Any other gate does not help:
-X-amount of games gate: I've seen players understand the game quick and perform well, and at the same time I have seen players that have been playing for 3-4 years and have yet not understood how to be a contribution to the team.
-no trails gate: Then they buy 4 mechs and have still not understood what it takes. And when a good player can drop in 4 trials, only use 2 of them and do top damage, call the shots, and get a solid amount of kills, above the average composition of the team, that gate is proven to be false.
point is you want "good players" to be in the endgame. Make them earn their access. Do it by a mission, have CaptnAdams explain the ways of FP, the modes, how to open gates, where the generator windows are, basic strategies

got no problems with your points and I've recommended the academy mission myself in the past. Just trying to put things out there...

The reason I recommended the grouping aspect had less to do with ability and more to do with dropping with at least one other person you'd be hypothetically resposible for/to so that there is at least some coordination (all hypothetical of course)...
So maybe two terribads working together would not be as bad as two terribads working alone in the same drop...

[Danjo San]

MovinTarget, on 31 January 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

So maybe two terribads working together would not be as bad as two terribads working alone in the same drop...

yeah ... that is if they actually communicate with each other

[MovinTarget]

Danjo San, on 31 January 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

yeah ... that is if they actually communicate with each other

Like I said... hypothetical...

Look, I'm just trying to lead the horse to water, whether it drinks is up to the horse...

Edited by MovinTarget, 31 January 2017 - 09:47 AM.

[Cpt Contego]

As far as i'm concerned, The game is pretty well balanced, (coming from an IS player). The huge elephant in the room is the pure fact that IS FW PUG's just do not communicate. On the rare occasion I've had one that has communicated, or at least listened to commands, we have done surprisingly well, (even beating an organised Clan group on Polar Highlands! ...We camped our own drop point and used the walls for cover negating their range superiority... not an ideal way to play, but hey it worked, IS never wins on that map). It's all about communication folks, and if you wont do that then at least listen to what the more experienced players are trying to tell you to do to achieve a victory, or at least a small loss instead of a crushing defeat. (Also FCS, please do not bring LRM's to a FW group if you are only new to the game!)

Edit: On a side note, I think having some sort of challenge gate system before being able to access FW is a great idea. When I first started FW I sucked, but at least had some understanding groups who taught me the ropes. Having a gate system would have prewarned me of the challenges of FW.

Edited by El Contego, 31 January 2017 - 01:37 PM.