48 replies to this topic

[The Errant]

Is it worth building an IS deck to trade with units that run lots of Clan PPC/Gauss (NTG, KDK, MAD-IIC, etc) on open long-range maps like Highlands or Alpine? Can IS realistically trade with the Clans in such situations (other factors like skill being relatively equal) or is it better to just commit to the push/brawl with the standard LL/LPL/ML loadouts and try to make it work? If trading with these Clan groups is possible, what IS builds do you recommend?

Been thinking about this a lot lately, digging on the forums and haven't an answer to this question specific enough to satisfy me. Most sources seem to be saying that 'long-range' IS decks use regular large lasers, but with all the good IS mechs for LL boating you're looking at 500-600 optimal range vs 700-800 for Clans. Is there something I'm missing here?

Edited by The Errant, 02 February 2017 - 06:26 AM.

[nagdamnit]

IS ERLL boats (Battlemasters or Grasshoppers are pretty effective at the moment) IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS are more than capable of ripping the shite outta clan mechs at long range.

That of course is assuming that all players are equal.

If the other team has better players, you'll post better scores but still lose.

Edited by nagdamnit, 02 February 2017 - 07:45 AM.

[Jon McFuzzy]

nagdamnit, on 02 February 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

IS ERLL boats (Battlemasters or Grasshoppers are pretty effective at the moment) IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS are more than capable of ripping the shite outta clan mechs at long range.

That of course is assuming that all players are equal.

If the other team has better players, you'll post better scores but still lose.

+ 1 ..... (and strategic positioning + situational awareness always help!)

[MovinTarget]

IS has lots of quirks that make our ER PPC range/Speed better that standard Clan ER PPC... If you know how to Lead Targets and such it can be quite good for trading.

[Starbomber109]

I think the reason a lot of people have recommended IS ERLL lately is because of the cooldown difference. Clan gauss rifles (and Gauss rifles in general) have a fairly long cooldown. Meaning that your large lasers can shoot twice before the gauss rifle refreshes (most of the time). If you have a firing line setup you can put the hurt on any mech that pokes its head out of the cracks. But invariably, when you close the distance, the shorter cooldown is gonna result in you outdamaging them (all other things equal)

[Grus]

We are the Borg, resistance is futile.

[MovinTarget]

Also, you really need to know the maps so that regardless of where you drop, you know where to set up...

Maybe you'll beat them, maybe you won't... just try to mitigate their range advantage...

Just because their range may seem great, normally they aren't exactly at optimal range...

Also... 6x AC2 mauler mx90's with range module has 900m optimal range. Once elited (fast fire), your cooldown is near .5 secs so even though your alpha is only 12, you are doing nearly 24 dps at high range and low heat...

Its good for cover fire and making mechs pay when they get out in the open... you can get a good 11-12 tons of ammo...

[justcallme A S H]

Gauss is no longer a long range weapon after it's recent nerf. You don't use it over about 900m anymore which is basically the optimal range for IS ERL on quirked mechs, and you can shoot out to 1500m. So anyone that brings Gauss to fight a long range map, is going to lose generally.

That said cERPPC does outrange IS ERL (even with quirks), so you have to be mindful of that.

A good team that can cERPPC shoot at range and land shots, will beat you mech for mech.

[MovinTarget]

justcallme A S H, on 22 March 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Gauss is no longer a long range weapon after it's recent nerf. You don't use it over about 900m anymore which is basically the optimal range for IS ERL on quirked mechs, and you can shoot out to 1500m. So anyone that brings Gauss to fight a long range map, is going to lose generally.

That said cERPPC does outrange IS ERL (even with quirks), so you have to be mindful of that.

A good team that can cERPPC shoot at range and land shots, will beat you mech for mech.

While they may not always have the best hardpoints, many IS mechs can can actually outrange cERPPC thanks to quirks on range and velocity. Yes, the lack of spash damage makes it a bit less potent, but so often people just don't to even try to be competetive if it forces them out of their comfort zone.

[MischiefSC]

Short answer - brawl.

Boreal, Alpine, don't matter.

There's a twitch stream from a top tier comp player who was dropping with his team in FW. We brawled them out in a pretty snipe friendly map. They lost to KCom and he was raging over it - in the process he said "The only thing they know how to do is hit 'w'!"

I consider that one of the best complements any team can get. That is a reputation anyone should be proud of.

Long answer: don't be a *****, go shoot them in the face. Win on DPS, heatcap and focused fire. Accept some of you will die on the approach and make sure their deaths are worth it. Don't hesitate to be the guy in front, soaking damage and dying with 60 damage in your first mech so your team can face-roll them. Play to help your team win the match, not pad your stats. Sniping works because most players are *******, 9x out of 10. In comp with only 1 mech and 2/2/2/2 you have to avoid every bit of damage you can and matches are lost over a split second of bad positioning. FW has 4 drops with 240-265 tons split among them for each player. How you deploy that and in what order wins or loses matches. As a given rule the following is true -

snipe > camp
snipe > cautious
ppfld > dot
Coordinated approach to brawl > snipe

Light rush, solid brawler medium wave with smart approach, there's a few good ways to deal with a dug in sniper position.

Secure the area around their dropzone, pick one guy off with party and camp him in the DZ. Get ahead on kills, force them out of position to come to you, etc.

Still though. Don't be a *****. Go shoot his face. Cowardly teammates should be driven before you.

Edited by MischiefSC, 22 March 2017 - 05:29 PM.

[MovinTarget]

MischiefSC, on 22 March 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

Short answer - brawl.

Boreal, Alpine, don't matter.

There's a twitch stream from a top tier comp player who was dropping with his team in FW. We brawled them out in a pretty snipe friendly map. They lost to KCom and he was raging over it - in the process he said "The only thing they know how to do is hit 'w'!"

I consider that one of the best complements any team can get. That is a reputation anyone should be proud of.

Long answer: don't be a *****, go shoot them in the face. Win on DPS, heatcap and focused fire. Accept some of you will die on the approach and make sure their deaths are worth it. Don't hesitate to be the guy in front, soaking damage and dying with 60 damage in your first mech so your team can face-roll them. Play to help your team win the match, not pad your stats. Sniping works because most players are *******, 9x out of 10. In comp with only 1 mech and 2/2/2/2 you have to avoid every bit of damage you can and matches are lost over a split second of bad positioning. FW has 4 drops with 240-265 tons split among them for each player. How you deploy that and in what order wins or loses matches. As a given rule the following is true -

snipe > camp
snipe > cautious
ppfld > dot
Coordinated approach to brawl > snipe

Light rush, solid brawler medium wave with smart approach, there's a few good ways to deal with a dug in sniper position.

Secure the area around their dropzone, pick one guy off with party and camp him in the DZ. Get ahead on kills, force them out of position to come to you, etc.

Still though. Don't be a *****. Go shoot his face. Cowardly teammates should be driven before you.

TL;DR... group up and get creative?

[MischiefSC]

MovinTarget, on 22 March 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

TL;DR... group up and get creative?

No.

TL;DR. Don't be a *****, group up and shoot them in the face.

[Crockdaddy]

MovinTarget, on 02 February 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

IS has lots of quirks that make our ER PPC range/Speed better that standard Clan ER PPC... If you know how to Lead Targets and such it can be quite good for trading.

Curious to which mechs you are referring too? My KDK / Hunch IICC / Summoner all with at least TC4 tend to disagree with you. Strongly so. Even my venerable Timber does ERPPC better than any IS mech I am aware of. The only IS mech I have enjoyed running ERPPC on is the TDR-9S.

[Crockdaddy]

justcallme A S H, on 22 March 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Gauss is no longer a long range weapon after it's recent nerf. You don't use it over about 900m anymore which is basically the optimal range for IS ERL on quirked mechs, and you can shoot out to 1500m. So anyone that brings Gauss to fight a long range map, is going to lose generally.

That said cERPPC does outrange IS ERL (even with quirks), so you have to be mindful of that.

A good team that can cERPPC shoot at range and land shots, will beat you mech for mech.

My KDK-3 and / Insert every Night Gyr disagree on your assessment concerning Gauss cannons. Agreed the range is no longer extreme but that is what the ERPPCs are for.

[justcallme A S H]

Duh
That is why I said the cERPPC is the king of the ranged game. IS ERPPC is just woefully under powered

Of course nothing to stop you shooting Gauss at over 1000m+ if you want, you can still hit stuff with it.
On the ammo -to- dmg ratio, well, you're better off not though especially in FP where you might be in a mech for 10mins unlike a QP where ammo is (generally) less of a problem.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 March 2017 - 10:38 PM.

[I cant want to]

MovinTarget, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Also, you really need to know the maps so that regardless of where you drop, you know where to set up...

Maybe you'll beat them, maybe you won't... just try to mitigate their range advantage...

Just because their range may seem great, normally they aren't exactly at optimal range...

Also... 6x AC2 mauler mx90's with range module has 900m optimal range. Once elited (fast fire), your cooldown is near .5 secs so even though your alpha is only 12, you are doing nearly 24 dps at high range and low heat...

Its good for cover fire and making mechs pay when they get out in the open... you can get a good 11-12 tons of ammo...

6 x ac2 mal-mx90 can get just shy of 9 shots per second with a macro, almost 18 sustained dps at 900m effective range

that is 1t of ammo in just over 8 seconds

and the supression via cabin shake / flash blinding is fantastic

with that rate of fire, crits also become a factor

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

One of the rifleman is a pretty good erppc sniper.
10%ernergy range, 50%higher ppc velocity and -10% ppc heat if i remember correctly.
(2erpcc, biggest std and 7dhs)

[Danjo San]

The Errant, on 02 February 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Is it worth building an IS deck to trade with units that run lots of Clan PPC/Gauss (NTG, KDK, MAD-IIC, etc) on open long-range maps like Highlands or Alpine? Can IS realistically trade with the Clans in such situations (other factors like skill being relatively equal) or is it better to just commit to the push/brawl with the standard LL/LPL/ML loadouts and try to make it work? If trading with these Clan groups is possible, what IS builds do you recommend?

Been thinking about this a lot lately, digging on the forums and haven't an answer to this question specific enough to satisfy me. Most sources seem to be saying that 'long-range' IS decks use regular large lasers, but with all the good IS mechs for LL boating you're looking at 500-600 optimal range vs 700-800 for Clans. Is there something I'm missing here?

depends, are you looking for team dropdecks or Solo?
Solo, go full ER-LL or ERPPc, Battlemasters with ER-LL, BJ-3 with ERppc, basically anything with high mounts, and 10% or more range boost, negative Duration is also a plus, as are Velocity Bonus for ERppc
You want highmounts, to expose as little as possible, so you can outmaneuver incoming snowballs. never poke the same place twice, never standstill, but hold your lasers as long as possible on your target. Also remember to buy a module for every option, you need those extra 12% range. Remember to say thank you to all the cheapskates while putting them in.
Group. Decide on what you want to do ahead of time and then run with it. We did everything from early SRM Light-rushes in Oxides to spawn defence with Heavy Short Range Brawlers and we even LRMed them to the ground, had 4 Waves of Narc Ravens and a whole lot of LRM spammers. It's fun, but it requires the whole groups dedication to that plan.
For mixed or incomplete Groups I'd go with ER-LL/PPC Decks.
Just remember to buy enough modules! And praise the cheapskates!

[tokumboh]

MischiefSC, on 22 March 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

No.

TL;DR. Don't be a *****, group up and shoot them in the face.

it is just you can see on lower Tier play people do not like to brawl they like to keep their mechs damage free. There are no rewards for brawling down the enemy, tanking and leading a push. None which is why people sit at the back. it is why LRM are a thing.

[justcallme A S H]

tokumboh, on 23 March 2017 - 02:06 AM, said:

it is just you can see on lower Tier play people do not like to brawl they like to keep their mechs damage free. There are no rewards for brawling down the enemy, tanking and leading a push. None which is why people sit at the back. it is why LRM are a thing.

No reward for brawling? What?

If you're a good brawler and do a good brawl push you can walk away with 400dmg+, KMDD, Solo Kills/Components etc. Piece of piss. My laser brawl 450m or less, I can usually crank upwards of 800dmg shielding/twisting and rotating out armour and so on.

But then - That is Team / Unit style and level of play. Not just running around doing headless potato pug behaviours from T5 QP.