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Return Of The Lurms?


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#1 krevLL

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:35 AM

I'm progressing through T2, and from T3 onwards I noticed a very distinct lack of LRMs being used, but starting with the MAD-IIC patch and continuing through the Bushwacker patch I've found that there have been a lot of LRMs in Solo quick-play. I know the 20's got buffed but it is still jarring to see entire lances of Heavies and Assualts vomiting missiles without actively hunting for locks. Some builds I can understand when a single LRM10 is used in conjunction with lasers, but I've been curious for a while now - did the matchmaking parameters get changed in terms of tiers or is everyone (I know it isn't even most people, just more than I'm used to) just deciding to lob missiles now?

On a side note, I'm ignorant as to what a potato is. Someone enlighten me?

#2 Roughneck45

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:43 AM

Potato is an insult for bad or clueless players.

There were a lot of lurms for me last night too. I think its got more to do with player experience than anything else. The less unit tags and mech pack badges I see the more LRMs are on the field.

#3 Evil Goof

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 01:49 PM

As the population goes down I think we will be seeing more and more lurms. The people who are likely to leave first are the people who are good and don't have anything left to accomplish.

Time of day matters too. Way less lurming in primetime while afternoons are potato city with sometimes being 12 out of 24 mechs being lurm boats. This should never happen but it can and does.

#4 krevLL

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:55 PM

View PostRoughneck45, on 02 February 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Potato is an insult for bad or clueless players.

There were a lot of lurms for me last night too. I think its got more to do with player experience than anything else. The less unit tags and mech pack badges I see the more LRMs are on the field.


Thanks for the clarification on that term. I can agree with that assessment, I hate it but there's something daunting when a massive cloud of missiles is falling towards you and you're caught away from cover.

View PostEvil Goof, on 02 February 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

As the population goes down I think we will be seeing more and more lurms. The people who are likely to leave first are the people who are good and don't have anything left to accomplish.

Time of day matters too. Way less lurming in primetime while afternoons are potato city with sometimes being 12 out of 24 mechs being lurm boats. This should never happen but it can and does.


If that proves to be true I'm going to have to roll out my Hellbringer and Shadowcat more often. Time of day does seem to matter, I find that for me it's more evenings that the Lurmites come crawling out.

On that note I played a game in my 6xLRM5 Mad Dog, and while it was gratifying to wreck all their lrm boats, it just wasn't nearly as satisfying as using energy, ballistic or SRM builds.

#5 Tesunie

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:37 AM

View PostkrevLL, on 02 February 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'm progressing through T2, and from T3 onwards I noticed a very distinct lack of LRMs being used, but starting with the MAD-IIC patch and continuing through the Bushwacker patch I've found that there have been a lot of LRMs in Solo quick-play. I know the 20's got buffed but it is still jarring to see entire lances of Heavies and Assualts vomiting missiles without actively hunting for locks. Some builds I can understand when a single LRM10 is used in conjunction with lasers, but I've been curious for a while now - did the matchmaking parameters get changed in terms of tiers or is everyone (I know it isn't even most people, just more than I'm used to) just deciding to lob missiles now?

On a side note, I'm ignorant as to what a potato is. Someone enlighten me?


This is a multi-approach issue. There is no one solid answer to present to you, and all of it is of course "by my knowledge", so some of it could be wrong or there could be options I haven't even considered.

For a start, LRMs got a bit of a buff. Whenever a weapon gets changed, you tend to see either more of it, or less depending upon the nature of the change. UACs got changed with a rather harsh (my opinion) nerf, so people initially tried it out, and quickly adjusted or changed their builds to exclude it all together. In this case, LRMs got a buff, so there will be people who will wish to check them out again, meaning they will be getting played more often in all tiers of play.

As another piece to compile, you have different crowds of players at different times of the day. At some times, the population may be low, which means you may find matches which may be seemingly harder (placed in matches above your normal tier) or easier (placed with typically lower tiered players) or just with different people. There may also just be people who happened to decide to pick up LRMs again, dusting off old favorites just because they can. I dabble in LRMs often enough, depends upon my mood. (I'm an LRM fan, but I'm not crazy enough to only use them, as it's good to use all weapons available, at least to some extent.)

Another perspective is that match maker actually did receive a slight alteration, permitting Tier 4 and Tier 1 players to be able to play in the same matches (something that has been in for a few patches apparently, but was never released to us players). There are even rumors that, at really low population times, that T1 players have had T5 players in their matches, something that, in theory, is never suppose to happen. So this is actually a possibility, but one I might say is low probability.

As a final piece I can think of at this moment, there has also been event going on. I know the current one required a single match with 200 match score a day (or 6 highest match score for your team) as well as a Lance in Formation challenge. Whenever an event seems to come that requires either of those two objectives, you tend to see a lot more LRMs. This is because LRMs have a reputation of getting high damage scores, which often translates to high match scores. High match scores in an event where you need a reasonable match score and/or a leaderboard event... And you get LRMs being used more frequently.


I will comment, if you drop in a match with (or against) me, I'm just as likely to have LRMs on my mech, as I am not to. I'm now T2, so not all low tier players use LRMs. Actually, I punched through (easily) the last I needed to of T3 with my LRM based mechs...



As for the term "potato", it is just the most recent surge of player slang/insults towards another player who plays this game. I've seen it referred to people in several different manners, and mostly it's aimed to demean and discourage "anyone who doesn't play like I do". It often is a term to indicate that the person is unskilled, dense, stupid or some other derogatory term. Just like... well... a Potato. It is dense, doesn't exactly think and it's best skill is being baked or boiled to a very good flavor.

The term is often used for expressions such as "harvested the enemy potatoes" meaning that they easily defeated the enemy team.

Basically, I'd avoid using it when referring to other players. I'll place it in my posts, but normally as a show of it being wrong, and usually when someone else "mashes" the term into a forum post I was responding to. (Pardon the "starchy" humor.) It really is rather disrespectful to your fellow players, and besides as a good pun to work with sometimes... We really should treat each other with at least some respect. (Who am I kidding. It's "da interwebs"... No one seems to be respectful anymore...)

#6 BigScwerl

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:36 AM

View PostTesunie, on 03 February 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

I will comment, if you drop in a match with (or against) me, I'm just as likely to have LRMs on my mech, as I am not to. I'm now T2, so not all low tier players use LRMs. Actually, I punched through (easily) the last I needed to of T3 with my LRM based mechs...


Sorry if this comes off as harsh, Tesunie, but Tiers are not really something to boast about. The Way the Tier system is set up, you don't go up in tier standing after a win or good performance at an equal rate that your standing declines when you lose. The Tier system is more of an indicator of how much/long you've played. (Sure players with more experience tend to be better, but not always).

On the other note, LRM's used as anything other than a direct fire support weapon with clear LOS and an open target is a waste of tonnage. You can't tell me it doesn't take more skill to aim, focus on damaged components and manually lead a target use a Gauss rifle, or while brawling with a hot laser vomit build.

As for playing with potato heads, for any marginally skilled player, say tier 3 and up, watching a T5 or T4 shoot teammates, alpha-overheat constantly, fire LRM's from 2000 meters, clog up chokepoints or suicide push is painful. I try to be supportive when I can, but my quickplay patience dwindles with every lurm atlas I find on my team. We try and be helpful as maybe some more upper echelon players, but what is really broken is the tier match making system. a Tier 2 grinding out a new mech in QP getting matched with a bunch of T5's that throw the game and end in a loss is going to get frustrated, there is no way around that in the current matchmaking system. It really needs to get tightened up, IMHO.

#7 Tesunie

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 11:14 AM

View PostBigScwerl, on 03 February 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:


Sorry if this comes off as harsh, Tesunie, but Tiers are not really something to boast about. The Way the Tier system is set up, you don't go up in tier standing after a win or good performance at an equal rate that your standing declines when you lose. The Tier system is more of an indicator of how much/long you've played. (Sure players with more experience tend to be better, but not always).

On the other note, LRM's used as anything other than a direct fire support weapon with clear LOS and an open target is a waste of tonnage. You can't tell me it doesn't take more skill to aim, focus on damaged components and manually lead a target use a Gauss rifle, or while brawling with a hot laser vomit build.

As for playing with potato heads, for any marginally skilled player, say tier 3 and up, watching a T5 or T4 shoot teammates, alpha-overheat constantly, fire LRM's from 2000 meters, clog up chokepoints or suicide push is painful. I try to be supportive when I can, but my quickplay patience dwindles with every lurm atlas I find on my team. We try and be helpful as maybe some more upper echelon players, but what is really broken is the tier match making system. a Tier 2 grinding out a new mech in QP getting matched with a bunch of T5's that throw the game and end in a loss is going to get frustrated, there is no way around that in the current matchmaking system. It really needs to get tightened up, IMHO.


On the effectiveness and operation of the PSR tier system... You will hear no argument from me on your comparison. There is a distinct reason why I typically don't talk about nor do I have my PSR tier showing on the forums. In this particular case, I felt it was relevant information in relation to LRMs and their ability to be used skillfully and at "higher levels of play". PSR is too heavily rated currently on win/loss, and not heavily enough on "skill". Then again, Match Score is also heavily weighted on damage, which leaves some game winning actions as completely unrewarded by Match Score, PSR as well as earnings. There are also too many ways to go up, not enough ways to go down. (Though the rather slow progression per match in the PSR system I do feel is a good thing. Keeps people from swinging up and down too quickly.)


In relation to the terms of LRM usage, we may be leaving the scope of what this thread is intended to encompass. Suffice to say, LRMs often takes as much skill as direct fire weapons, just not the same skill set as well as can be easy to use if you don't care about the end results. This discussion can be a long one and I will comment a lot of it falls upon effective use verse "spam" or "spray and pray". I will comment though that I enjoy the flexibility that LRMs provide a mech, and the options it opens up between what the mech can do. They have their weaknesses and counters of course as well. I think I'm going to leave this here for the moment, because this would not be a short diversion on the possible tactics and use of LRMs. Suffice it to say when LRMs are accused of being a "skill-less" weapon, I agree and disagree at the same time. (AKA: It can be nearly skill-less to a weapon that benefits from being used skillfully. For more on my opinion on it, probably best to follow these links.)
(As a note here, I've also heard some people refer to direct fire weapons as "skill-less point and click" before. So... the "skill-less" accusation has actually and literally been tossed both ways, and I feel each are wrong.)


As far as the MM's range of PSR tiers, I do agree that higher tier players really shouldn't be dropping with lower tier. Then again, I'll recomment that I feel the whole PSR system is a little wonky to start with, as mentioned above by each of us. It's basically a reskinned Elo system with just an alternative way to go up on a loss, and a way to not move on a win. And, the requirements top go up on a loss are kinda crazy high, meaning you'd have to be more than skillful, but also lucky or "incredibly" skillful so as to actually gain PSR tiers if you were unlucky enough to always be on a losing team (which would also be unlucky). I'm however going to avoid this conversation any farther, due to the same reason's I cut my LRM topic short. I don't wish to detract this thread from it's intended conversation (and I honestly can go for some time on this conversation as well).

Beyond how MM makes matches (which I will agree with you on), as fellow players, you should be trying to help teammates when in a match. As frustrating as it is, you should try to inform them things that they are doing wrong with what they have on their mech. Make recommendations for them. I know I have when I saw a PPC mech shooting within 90m ranges, I suggested they add on a couple SLs or MLs, or they change the PPC to an ERPPC. For LRMs, I constantly have to inform them that their "long range missiles" can't deal damage outside 1000m, as well as are more effective within 200-600m, as well as has a minimum range of 180m, as well as... And yes, I know. This often can seem repetative as well as frustratingly futile. (I've once had someone shout in Voip at me "I know" when I offered advise, as I continued to see them shoot PPCs at a target with their other weapons within minimum range. All they did was overheat themselves faster, but "they knew" what they where doing...)

In relation to a lot of your last paragraph though... PUGs will be PUGs. We can't control the 23 other people in our matches, and there is only so much that a single person can do. As frustrating as that can be. This is why I disagree with how PSR gauges players... Especially in QP.

On the remark with LRM Atlases (which I'll take as meaning "LRM assaults"), depends upon how they have it set up, how they play it, etc. I don't mind LRMs on an assault, but I don't like assault (or any kind to be honest) LRM boats. An Atlas has so much potential to be squandered as an LRM boat. Fit some LRMs in it? Sure, helps counter it's slower speeds as it moved into combat. All LRMs? Just seems wasteful to me (depending upon how they use it). But, once again, PUGs will be PUGs and you can't control anyone else but yourself.


I could blabber on and ramble... but I think I'm going to stop here. Suffice enough to say, I agree with most of what you say, especially when it comes to PSR. I disagree a little depending upon LRMs, as they can be used skillfully and effectively, and from the front lines with a mix of direct and indirect fire capabilities, while also "armor sharing"; or unskillfully from the back lines, alone, vulnerable and used in a manner called "spray and pray" on every lock one sees...

#8 BigScwerl

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:31 PM

I'll leave it brief as this is probably the end of this thread, but I agree that a few LRM's can be great IF they are on a build with more than one purpose than hanging in the back with 80+ tons of armor and whining about locks, but I think that you and I are the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak...We agree on this... now the question is: How do we get the PUGs to realize this faster?

#9 Horseman

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:55 PM

There's also the aspect of LRMs being... well, just plain fun if you know how to run them and a nice a change of pace to direct fire all the time.

I switched to my AWS-8R just for that reason and it's been a pretty good run for the past two weeks. Also kind of repetitive, so I'm going to go back to my other chassis in a few days.

Why the 8R? Check the quirks on that thing. 10% missile velocity, -15% missile heat generation and 30% LRM-15 cooldown (when counted with missile cooldown). Throw in a LRM-15 cooldown module for another 12% and Fast Fire for another 5% and you end up with 47% cooldown on the LRM-15s. Unless my math is wrong, the sustained DPS with 3xALRM15 is similar to STK-3H (with 3xLRM-20) but with better heat management - and if you sacrifice medium lasers and some ammo, you can fit another launcher on the chassis for even higher DPS (I don't, 3xALRM15 and 3xML gives me sufficient space to run XL250, a stockpile of ammo that lasts through most of a match and a BAP with some of the spare crits + tonnage).

This "LURMS be useless, mon" meme that's going around is nonsense - that there's a lot of godawful pilots attracted to LRMs doesn't make the weapon itself bad, just means that a lot of people who try to use it don't have a clue.

I'll just leave this here and let the stat screens speak for themselves: http://imgur.com/a/gv0HU

Edited by Horseman, 03 February 2017 - 02:59 PM.


#10 AnimeFreak40K

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 03:24 PM

View PostBigScwerl, on 03 February 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'll leave it brief as this is probably the end of this thread, but I agree that a few LRM's can be great IF they are on a build with more than one purpose than hanging in the back with 80+ tons of armor and whining about locks, but I think that you and I are the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak...We agree on this... now the question is: How do we get the PUGs to realize this faster?

You don't. You let people play how they want to play. If you don't like it, don't go QP Solo

I will be quite clear, I am, more or less in the same boat as Tesunie when it comes to their assessment on LRMs, their use and all that rot. I like running LRM boats, and I like running direct fire. I like running combination weapons as well. Like Tesunie, if you were to come across me in QP, I would be just as likely to be running an LRM boat of some kind as not. It really just matters on my mood and frame of mind at that time.

When I hear people complain about LRMs being a no-skill weapon, my knee-jerk reaction is to call BS. My second reaction is to go "so what?" The complaint that LRMs are no-skill or low-skill doesn't make a damn bit of difference to someone who doesn't care about skill. The fact of the matter is that most (but not all) people who play this game are casual gamers. Things like score, skill, or other such numbers don't matter to them... or maybe some numbers matter (like # of Assists or KMMD, C-Bills earned) while others are immaterial (W/L, K/D, match score or placement on the leaderboards).

The only "hope" for these folks is that they play more, they will bet a better idea of different weapons and such. Also, that they may join a unit or find a group of friends that will show them a better way that is comfortable to them.

#11 krevLL

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 12:05 PM

That's all true. It's interesting to see it when instead of having a few dedicated mech's boating LRMs, most of them have one or two launchers coupled with direct fire weapons. Drops like that actually seem to work fairly well, since you can deal a lot of damage almost regardless of the situation.

I feel like I have a bit of a better idea as to why it's the way it is, and now I know for sure what a potato is. I actually wonder if it's becoming a situation where it's less about running a bunch of the same or similar weapons and more about flexibility in loadouts including LRMs.

#12 Tesunie

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostkrevLL, on 04 February 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

I actually wonder if it's becoming a situation where it's less about running a bunch of the same or similar weapons and more about flexibility in loadouts including LRMs.


I've always liked my flexible mixed builds. Lets me engage as I choose most times, hopefully at a range and manner that my opponent is weak at. It's also why I like LRMs as well, as it has a lot of tactical flexibility. Too badly damaged and at risk of dropping? Pull back and hide, let the rest of the team start sharing armor and getting locks for you so you can continue to deal damage with minimal risk. Hiding out of my sight, but an ally is fighting for their lives with a solid lock? I can send in some help, which may be the tipping point in that engagement, or may be what pushes the enemy to pull back into cover... Etc.

Of course, there is also a purpose for boats and specialized mechs as well. I wont deny they have their strengths, but I also see their weaknesses as well. All a matter of how you wish to play and what skills you present to the game.

#13 BigScwerl

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 01:51 PM

View PostAnimeFreak40K, on 03 February 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

You don't. You let people play how they want to play. If you don't like it, don't go QP Solo

Oh, if only it were only when I'm grinding in QP....

#14 AnimeFreak40K

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 05:13 PM

View PostBigScwerl, on 04 February 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Oh, if only it were only when I'm grinding in QP....

So what? If you don't like it, don't play.

LRMs are a weapon in this game and there are mechs that can equip them. Those two points alone mean that you can, and should expect people to bring them.

At this point, I am convinced that you, and folks similar to you, just don't like LRMs at all, and their very existence bothers you. It is people like you that encourage me to dust off my LRM boats...but then I am a man that is often fueled by spite.

Either way, LRMs bother you because you allow them to bother you. The moment you stop worrying about what other people are doing and only concern yourself with what you do, the better off you'll be.

#15 BigScwerl

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:44 AM

Oh sure, Don't play. Great answer for that. Yeah, just quit being a community member and roll over. Don't discuss the issue on a forum where these things are supposed to be discussed, just quit. Maybe that is how you handle things in your life, but it is not how I do. Its single purpose LRM boats that seem pointless to me. Not because I'm getting smoked by LRMs, but because non contributing LRM boats tend to be such a potato build, and there are so few instances where they are helpful or effective. I've said it before, I LIKE LRMs. They are a good weapon when used in conjunction with other weapons. Single purpose builds are great in CW, when you know the map and can build a deck, but bringing a splat brawler to Polar Highlands does not help your team, just like a lrm boat in a city doesn't help your team.

#16 MacClearly

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 06:29 PM

View PostAnimeFreak40K, on 04 February 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

So what? If you don't like it, don't play.

LRMs are a weapon in this game and there are mechs that can equip them. Those two points alone mean that you can, and should expect people to bring them.

At this point, I am convinced that you, and folks similar to you, just don't like LRMs at all, and their very existence bothers you. It is people like you that encourage me to dust off my LRM boats...but then I am a man that is often fueled by spite.

Either way, LRMs bother you because you allow them to bother you. The moment you stop worrying about what other people are doing and only concern yourself with what you do, the better off you'll be.


FW is supposed to be a competitive mode in this game. Lurms are the least competitive weapon currently and for them to work in FW you need to use them on the right maps and have support, especially organised support.

So until that changes, the expectation is only bad players, or all round poor teammates will bring them pugging in FW. There are exceptions as there are some guys who can make them work, where most others can't.

You saying because those hardpoints are there tough, is ridiculous. You could put four machine guns on a Kodiak 3 but to do so and drop in a mode where people are trying to compete and have fun would not be cool.

So lurms are going to bother people and there is good cause for them to be an annoyance if they are making it difficult to compete in a match. Saying worry about yourself in regards to a mode that needs coordination makes zero sense. That is why people try and get the message out to new players and terrible players to not bring lurms to FW.

#17 Tesunie

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 06:58 PM

View PostMacClearly, on 06 February 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

That is why people try and get the message out to new players and terrible players to not bring lurms to FW.


A mech or two for boating LRMs in FP? Not an issue, but I advise against it.
A mech or two that has some LRMs with other weapons? Shouldn't break your team.
A drop deck full of nothing but LRM boats? I don't recommend LRM boats to begin with... and bringing a whole deck of them to FP? Highly not recommended.

Basically, a few mechs with some LRMs shouldn't be a problem to a FP group and can actually be a boon. A deck full of nothing but LRMs can be very situational and can be either a boon or more likely a tax on the team.


As far as "telling players what to play" (not saying this is what you are saying, mind), I've had a situation like that. It was not nice as an entire team not just asked, but "demanded" I played a specific mech without any regard to what I was trying to do myself. It ended up being such a bad incident that I left my faction over it to avoid dropping with said group again. Sad part is, they ended up hounding me on the forums afterwards about the event, because they "needed to let me know what to play".

Now, I don't mind suggestions and helpful advise. I'm all for it actually. But I do tend to draw the line when people tell me or anyone else how we have to play a game, and what we should be playing in. There is a distinct difference between the two.

#18 MacClearly

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 01:41 PM

View PostTesunie, on 06 February 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:


A mech or two for boating LRMs in FP? Not an issue, but I advise against it.
A mech or two that has some LRMs with other weapons? Shouldn't break your team.
A drop deck full of nothing but LRM boats? I don't recommend LRM boats to begin with... and bringing a whole deck of them to FP? Highly not recommended.

Basically, a few mechs with some LRMs shouldn't be a problem to a FP group and can actually be a boon. A deck full of nothing but LRMs can be very situational and can be either a boon or more likely a tax on the team.


As far as "telling players what to play" (not saying this is what you are saying, mind), I've had a situation like that. It was not nice as an entire team not just asked, but "demanded" I played a specific mech without any regard to what I was trying to do myself. It ended up being such a bad incident that I left my faction over it to avoid dropping with said group again. Sad part is, they ended up hounding me on the forums afterwards about the event, because they "needed to let me know what to play".

Now, I don't mind suggestions and helpful advise. I'm all for it actually. But I do tend to draw the line when people tell me or anyone else how we have to play a game, and what we should be playing in. There is a distinct difference between the two.



Yeah it does come down to the player a lot of the time. I run a Catapult C1 with two lrm 15's with arti, and four medium lasers from time to time but that is situational at best and usually going in knowing that I will have support. If I am doing it in FW you can bet there will only be two or three of us at a time with a narcer. This way I know I am going to be effective or at least have the chance to be. When I drop pug style in FW I can't be sure of these things so it is usually not worth trying in my opinion.

There is certain times though that it would be nice to get the message out to not bring em. Grim Portico for instance. That's where when the illustrious MechBro Novakaine says don't bring em then everyone should listen.

Also when you get polar garbagelands in FW pug and people rejoice and bring all the long range missileness that they can cram into their deck, to be stomped by the team with the er large lasers and PPC's. It makes the game unfun.

#19 Steel Raven

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 03:07 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with Lurms if I witness fewer lost matches that ended with a couple of LRMs boats hiding behind a hill, shooting into the dirt in front of them as the clock ticks down. It's becoming more annoying than the light snipers of old who would power down their mech at the end of a match vs fighting. LRMs are Support weapons so you better fight with your team. If you rather fight from cover, dump your Lurms and get a Sniper build.

Edited by Steel Raven, 08 February 2017 - 03:08 PM.


#20 Reverend Herring

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 11:23 PM

I'd rather have some lrm's in my team than no lrm's on my team. I also would rather have no lrm's on my team than all lrm's.

LRM is a support weapon, and a good one, if treated as such.

(Disclaimer: I only play solo-PUG's. Only tried FW a few times. Did not like.)





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