59 replies to this topic

[Horseman]

Roughneck45, on 23 February 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

You have about a two second window to remove your aim and bring it back without losing lock.

And if the target has a functional brain, chances are you are not getting that lock back on.

BigScwerl, on 23 February 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

I would not ever use an Awesome as a LRM carrier because I would be hiding my 80 tons of Armor in the back the whole match.

If you thought it's meant to sit still at extreme range and lob missiles, then you don't understand how TAG and Artemis on it work - they are entirely useless if you hide in the back - thereby only proving further that you're really not familiar with LRMs.

Quote

This is what I've probably done to you in your Awesome lurmbroat.

That Highlander pilot wasn't trying to evade, ignored eight seconds' worth of advance warning and didn't even try to fire back when he noticed the Viper. Am not impressed.

Then again, we are talking about a pilot who according to the seasonal scoreboards had KDR between 0.25 and 0.72 in that period - let that sink in for a moment.

Also, it kind of validates my argument that LRMs are not easy mode.

Quote

What weapon makes it easier to kill a fast moving target?
A. Laser
B. Streak SRM

Unless we're talking about Small Lasers, laser wins thanks to better range, hitscan damage (an advantage in both lack of a flight time and more focused damage), immunity to ECM and no need to wait for a lock while the target is actively 1) chewing off your face and 2) evading (including getting out of your SRM range before the missiles hit)

Edited by Horseman, 23 February 2017 - 12:35 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Horseman, on 23 February 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

And if the target has a functional brain, chances are you are not getting that lock back on.

Well that's for any lock if the target is moving towards cover. Has nothing to do with adjusting your aim to get missiles over obstacles right in front of you.

Makes me think you aren't familiar with LRMs.

Edited by Roughneck45, 23 February 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[krevLL]

BigScwerl, on 23 February 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

What weapon makes it easier to kill a fast moving target?

A. Laser
B. Streak SRM

yeah, I thought so.

Laser. I don't care how many SSRMs you're boating, you need enough to overheat at once to kill a light if you're lucky, or I'm just obscenely unlucky. It's easier for me to laser a light to death. Ballistic/PPC? Now that's a different story. (I play clan, and the clan AC setup isn't great for fast movers.)

The main point, though, is that LRM's have a much broader skill requirement than any other weapon group, I think. New to the game? Super easy to rain death on other, panicking new players. Playing against people who understand cover and Raderp modules? You can use LRM's to support and disorient in a mid-range fight, or a brawl if you're second line. But to do that you need a solid understanding of the map and positioning. Or you can just troll the **** out of people.

That's all for Quick Play, though. Competitive and FW are different beasts, entirely.

My personal experience is that in the solo QP matches I play, LRMs are the hardest to use in an effective manner. Unless you have a NARC Raven and something like 200 tubes on your team. Direct-fire weapons are easy as hell compared to that.

[BigScwerl]

Horseman, on 23 February 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Unless we're talking about Small Lasers, laser wins thanks to better range, hitscan damage (an advantage in both lack of a flight time and more focused damage), immunity to ECM and no need to wait for a lock while the target is actively 1) chewing off your face and 2) evading (including getting out of your SRM range before the missiles hit)

hahaha, yeah good luck trying to get any burn time on a raven with your medium laser and IS LRMs. I'm not saying I bring streaks, but method A is good for buring 30 seconds on a squirrel chase getting 15 points of damage and overheating, while method B will wipe out a light in one move. Which one sounds easier to you?

Sorry, I'm just going to agree to disagree and prove my point next time I see you on the battlefield.

Edited by BigScwerl, 23 February 2017 - 04:37 PM.

[Tesunie]

BigScwerl, on 23 February 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

hahaha, yeah good luck trying to get any burn time on a raven with your medium laser and IS LRMs.

I believe he was talking about SSRMs to lasers on taking out a light mech? Lasers have their advantages, and SSRMs do as well. But they each also have their disadvantages too.

Lasers don't care about ECM, just range and burn time. Keep them on target, and they can deal a lot of damage. Good on any target, though slower ones will take more damage from these than fast targets.

SSRMs require a lock, which means no snap shots from them. ECM may interfere here as well, and they spread damage. But, when fighting with these they are mostly only effective against lighter targets. Against a larger and more armored target, they spread their damage too much.


And... What's wrong with an LRM Raven exactly?

[krevLL]

6xLRM5 Jenner IIC's can be stupid annoying. I'd imagine a LRM Raven would be just as such. Actually, it might not be considered a bad tactic if a light carried some LRMs, they'd be an easy kill if caught out but if it is fulfilling it's role as a spotter while completely causing chaos by hitting the rear of mech's and driving them from cover that would shield them from your team... Or draw all the aggro.

All things that can be done with different weapons systems, though.

[Tesunie]

krevLL, on 23 February 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

6xLRM5 Jenner IIC's can be stupid annoying. I'd imagine a LRM Raven would be just as such. Actually, it might not be considered a bad tactic if a light carried some LRMs, they'd be an easy kill if caught out but if it is fulfilling it's role as a spotter while completely causing chaos by hitting the rear of mech's and driving them from cover that would shield them from your team... Or draw all the aggro.

All things that can be done with different weapons systems, though.

I have a Raven with LRMs, 2 MLs and 2 MGs. I call it Carrion. It's actually worked very well in the past (haven't played it in a while), as it starts off as a support LRM mech. Then, once a gap is opened in a mech's armor, I duck in and take that piece with my closer ranged weapons and withdraw back behind my team to repeat the process. It has worked very well for me for some time, before a new tactic caught my attention.


(redacted)

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 24 February 2017 - 07:40 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Neput Z34, on 18 February 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

If LRMs persist for more then a few matches I recommend the following:

Nova-S with 7 C-SPL and Triple AMS, to get in close and punch their teeth in give them a hug.

If that is not sufficient upgrade to an ECM equipped mech with AMS, just to be sure.

You are doing this exactly one time...untill you notice the LRM carriers wheren't stupid but trollbait carrying an assortment of shortrange secondary weapons along their Lurms and staying close together.

Always funny to whatch one or two lights going sneaky on him and his brother thinking they where oh so clever in group queue.

[krevLL]

Tesunie, on 23 February 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

before a new tactic caught my attention.

Can you please explain the relevance of this post in this thread? I see no connection here as to why you made this post...

What's this new tactic you speak of?

I believe he was referencing my signature, and countered my troll with another of *their* own.

Good Trump build, though. I especially enjoyed the lack of head armor and the DHS which allow for extended tanning sessions before overheating.

Edited by krevLL, 24 February 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[Horseman]

BigScwerl, on 23 February 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

hahaha, yeah good luck trying to get any burn time on a raven with your medium laser

Leading the shots is not a superpower.

Quote

I'm not saying I bring streaks, but method A is good for buring 30 seconds on a squirrel chase getting 15 points of damage and overheating, while method B will wipe out a light in one move. Which one sounds easier to you?

That's provided the other party is stupid enough to give chase.

LRMs vs direct fire weapons are - and have always been - a case of fitting against each other's disadvantages. In certain situations one of them will outdo the other, while in others it will be the disadvantaged one - it's up to you to know how to counter instead of screaming "LRMs are a bad weapon" or "LRMs require no skills" (incidentally, these complaints are mutually contradictory). The only place where LRMs can be seen as OP by any stretch of the term is in T5, against pugs who are still mystified by basic gameplay mechanics and haven't gotten their Radar Dep modules yet.

[BigScwerl]

Horseman, on 24 February 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Leading the shots is not a superpower.

O.M.G. You just don't understand or know when to quit, do you? I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding this conversation and imagining things. Its a laser, you don't need to lead it, you simply need to hold your crosshair on a target for the majority of the burn time. That is very difficult to do when a light is swerving, running erratically and using JJ's as a good light pilot will. If you can hold your lock circle for a few seconds, you can potentially send a lot of damage right to a target, sure, it is not focused, but it probably better than the lightsaber you're waving around.

Unless you're playing with a 12 man, or well diciplined warriors people always give chase. I'm really tired of this conversation though, and I think this is the last I will post in here. Your argument is just flat out wrong. The discussion and the point is that direct fire weapons are harder to use than Homing Missiles. Period. If you choose not to recognize that, I can't help you.

The only time I have a problem with LRMs are when they are on my QP team and people are calling for locks and hiding in the back....And this is the majority of LRM players I encounter in QP. Please, though. Bring them to FW. I don't mind an easy victory against an IS team covered in LRMs.

In other news:
I guess someone took offense to my trump build! Its not on the thread anymore! would I be notified if a post was removed?

Edited by BigScwerl, 24 February 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[krevLL]

Huh. Very clearly so. I didn't notice the Supernova build had disappeared. I wonder if my signature will also disappear, then...

[Tesunie]

krevLL, on 24 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

What's this new tactic you speak of?

I believe he was referencing my signature, and countered my troll with another of *their* own.

Good Trump build, though. I especially enjoyed the lack of head armor and the DHS which allow for extended tanning sessions before overheating.

You know. The usual. New mech. New thing I want to try out next. Etc. My Raven still has that build on it, but I've been just playing other mechs instead of it. I... also am not a very good light pilot. I tend to get over committed to a strike and don't know when to let go... This build helped with that, as after I removed a stripped component I knew it was time to leave.


Ah. So that is why that post was there. I thought maybe the wrong link was placed or something, and was confused as to why it was here... Sounds like it was something that should have been PMed to you instead of posted in an unrelated thread.

BigScwerl, on 24 February 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Your argument is just flat out wrong. The discussion and the point is that direct fire weapons are harder to use than Homing Missiles. Period. If you choose not to recognize that, I can't help you.

The only time I have a problem with LRMs are when they are on my QP team and people are calling for locks and hiding in the back....And this is the majority of LRM players I encounter in QP. Please, though. Bring them to FW. I don't mind an easy victory against an IS team covered in LRMs.


In other news:
I guess someone took offense to my trump build! Its not on the thread anymore! would I be notified if a post was removed?

Actually, LRMs require lots of skills to use, depending upon how you use it and the intent on it's purpose within a build. You have flight angles to consider, which are just as difficult to get sometime as it would be for a direct LoS weapon. You have flight duration, which could be related to leading with something like a PPC, but in reverse (you have to predict if your opponent will get into cover before the LRMs hit, instead of leading a shot to predict where they will be when something like a PPC would hit). You then also have to keep your lock, which means you need to either keep LoS for the whole flight duration, or your spotter does. Then, you also have to keep your missile lock, which means you have to keep your reticule on target, just like any laser, though it is a little more forgiving than a laser in this case. Then, you also have that minimum range limit, which means you need to position yourself and play to your strengths, and hopefully your opponent's weaknesses.

That's just game play, forget about the balance between heat sinks, ammo, tube counts, back up weapons, support gear, etc involved in mech loadout creation.

If you are too blind to see the skills involved in using LRMs, and the many different ways to use them, than I can not help you. I also love people constantly quoting the worst possible manner of using LRMs as though it is the only manner in which to use LRMs. You know, the "hide in back, let their teammates die for their locks, and get killed by lights" tactic. You do know... there are other ways to play LRMs, right? Ways that are vastly more effective, but also more difficult. (Bait/lure, terror ("incoming missile warning"), indirect fire when badly damaged (better to continue to deal damage, rather than be destroyed), as an approaching weapon (till you can get LoS yourself), etc. So many tactics available.)



As for the trump build, probably had nothing to do with "offending" someone, but probably had more to do with relevance to the thread. I thought you may have been trying to post something as a point for the thread and got the wrong link or something. Seen as it was a troll post unrelated to the thread, than it was not needed to be posted here.

krevLL, on 24 February 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Huh. Very clearly so. I didn't notice the Supernova build had disappeared. I wonder if my signature will also disappear, then...

Your signature is perfectly safe. His post only got removed possibly do to relevance to the thread, or a lack there of. And no, I did not report it. I was going to wait and see why it was there first...

Edited by Tesunie, 24 February 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[Dinochrome]

Hailz all:

Lately I have noticed a lot of heavies compared to lights and mediums in the game. It seems a lot of the games turn into long range attrition battles. I drive a lot of mediums because I prefer to, crossing ground to get to firing range can be suicidal on occasion. I have found that using LRM5/ Lrm10's to suppress and soften up heavy/ assault snipers works well. I have started to carry a couple LRM's in addition to my ballistics and lasers. Also started carrying an AMS also.

V/R Dinochrome

[Tesunie]

Dinochrome, on 24 February 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

Lately I have noticed a lot of heavies compared to lights and mediums in the game.

Heavies have almost always been the most populated weight class in the game. The boost in assault weight mechs is due to the relative new release of the Mad IIC as well as the newly released Supernova, combined with the Kodiak's release as a C-bill mech (a short while ago).

AMS is also a reasonably good team defensive system, especially if you see a lot of LRMs being tossed around in the matches you play.

I've always mixed LRMs with alternative weapon systems, and they can be helpful. If you are having good results with your LRM mechs, than stick with it. But don't get yourself entrapped into a specific weapon play style. It's a game and I suggest one to always be willing to experiment and try out other things.

[xe N on]

LRMs return always in QP, if people play slow fat assault mechs. Because once they have done a mistake in their positioning, they cannot evade LRMs. Playing mostly mediums I really don't find LRMs dangerous. I'm fast enough to retreat anytime to evade LRMs entirely.

In addition, slow fat assault often mount some LRMs as backup until they are in position. So, there is a intensifying effect.

So, in summary: more fat slow assaults = more LRM rain that however, only should be less than an annoyance for people who don't play fat slow assaults by them self.

Edited by xe N on, 26 February 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[BigScwerl]

Just wanted to mention that I PUG dropped in FW a few minutes ago and found a Clan team filled with monster tonnage Lurm Boats.

They spent the whole match hiding in the back and sending lurms 1000m throught the sky into buildings and rocks...

We Lost.

[Tesunie]

BigScwerl, on 01 March 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

Just wanted to mention that I PUG dropped in FW a few minutes ago and found a Clan team filled with monster tonnage Lurm Boats.

They spent the whole match hiding in the back and sending lurms 1000m throught the sky into buildings and rocks...

We Lost.

Can't blame the weapon system when it's people who are using it poorly.

Do you blame the small laser (pulse, ER or normal) when people try to snipe with it, shooting targets over 800m away? I've seen people do it, so does that mean it's a bad weapon system?


Using LRMs as dedicated weapon systems, combined with using them as an indirect only weapon system, combined with using them as a sole weapon on a huge mech without an intended support team to help them, with too much of these styled mechs/players on one team... can very much be a bad thing. You can easily have too many LRMs on a team, but having some LRMs used well on a team can actually be rather helpful. Provided they are at the front (or frontish), "sharing armor", and with alternative weapons added in or a good team to support a single boat or two.

I don't blame the weapon system when people use them poorly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not decrying LRMs as the best weapon in the game, but I'm also not calling them the worst either. They are a utility weapon that has many different ways they can be utilized and many different tactics that they can support. However, they pay for that utility and flexibility by having slow travel speeds and high spread, along with that minimum range.

[BigScwerl]

Tesunie, on 02 March 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

Can't blame the weapon system when it's people who are using it poorly.

Thats Exactly it! I don't know how many time I have said it on this thread. probably in nearly EVERY post. But I will say it again, Specifically for you, Tesunie:

LRMS ARE NOT A BAD WEAPON

What is bad, is pilots thinking they are wearing the cats pajamas because they can boat 2000 LRMS in a HIGHLANDER to a FW Match with Pugs. The 3 or 4 pilots that did this effectlively lost the game for us.

They camped in the back with their 350+ tons of armor, and kept the red team hidden. when our force of 6 or 8 tried to to trade and/or push, we got wiped out due to a huge tonnage deficit. it was 12 inner sphere mechs to our 6 or 8 clan mechs. we did a little damage, but not enough to change the tide. Meanwhile our LRM support was busy firing rockets into rocks, and insisting they were "doing a great job".



IT DOESN'T WORK. PLEASE STOP.

[Horseman]

BigScwerl, on 02 March 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

LRMS ARE NOT A BAD WEAPON

What is bad, is pilots thinking they are wearing the cats pajamas because they can boat 2000 LRMS in a HIGHLANDER to a FW Match with Pugs. The 3 or 4 pilots that did this effectlively lost the game for us.

Ah, the old "anything with a missile hardpoint is a LURMboat" fallacy. Seen it with an Atlas before (yes, Atlas; "20 launch tubes across all four launchers together" Atlas) Quirks can make or break a build - I wouldn't be running LRMs at all if not for my Catapults and AWS-8R being specifically quirked for their use.

Edited by Horseman, 03 March 2017 - 08:39 AM.