22 replies to this topic

[Greyhart]

The issue in my opinion. Is not how long or how much it costs. But how does it feel to level a Mech?

Starting from 0 C-bills and 0XP how does it feel taking a Mech from 0 to 91 SP.

Is there a balance between the time spent and the reward? Does the gaining of an SP give enough of a pleasure response to justify the time spent gaining the SP?

The current system is very dissatisfying as all the reward is at the end with the double basics.

It might be that a single SP makes no appreciable difference. In which case it could be that the skill tree needs to be reduced so a single SP is more important.

But the balance is about getting the right amount of pleasure for the time spent in game. Doesn't matter how long it takes or how much is costs as long as it is fun to do.

[Fox2232]

https://mwomercs.com/profile/stats
read your average "Accumulative C-Bills Per Match" and "Avg. XP Per Match".
One SP costs 1500XP + 100k C-Bills.
My average tells that I need 160 games to get enough XP and 67 games to gain enough C-bills (I am not premium player).

With current system It took me around 180games to have fully skilled mech(3variants) + module (XP). +many more to actually unlock those 3 modules with global XP.

So while new system allows for faster unlock, greater customization and cheaper modules, it costs much more in regards of C-Bills since skills which were previously "Modules" were transferable between mechs at no additional cost.
And actual reskilling comes at pretty steep price.

[Bud Crue]

Who knows? With only a two week PTS, it expect it will be impossible for any but the most dedicated of players to take a fresh mech and actually try specing it out from 0 nodes to 91; particularly in light of the relatively huge XP requirement. Be a worthy effort if someone had the time to dedicate to trying this.

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 February 2017 - 05:43 AM.

[Greyhart]

Bud Crue, on 09 February 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

Who knows? With only a two week PTS, it expect it will be impossible for any but the most dedicated of players to take a fresh mech and actually try specing it out from 0 nodes to 91; particularly in light of the relatively huge XP requirement. Be a worthy effort if someone had the time to dedicate to trying this.

Really it doesn't matter about mastering the Mech.

does it feel good going from 0 to 1SP does it continue to feel good and rewarding going from 50 to 51SP?

If it drags and feels like a chore for no benefit that is a problem.

If it feels satisfying it doesn't matter how long it takes or how much it costs as that is time spent enjoying the game.

[Cy Mitchell]

Bud Crue, on 09 February 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

Who knows? With only a two week PTS, it expect it will be impossible for any but the most dedicated of players to take a fresh mech and actually try specing it out from 0 nodes to 91; particularly in light of the relatively huge XP requirement. Be a worthy effort if someone had the time to dedicate to trying this.

Made even more difficult by the 4v4 format and the inability to far high damage/kills for big rewards. Even a fanatic might not be able to do it before PTS ends.

[Tristan Winter]

Like Bud Crue says, it's too early to tell. And 4v4 without matchmaker doesn't give you a good idea of how it will feel in QP or FP either. Also, it seems like most people are playing heavies and assaults most of the time, making it even less representative.

I can tell you what a fully upgraded jump jet skill tree feels like though. It feels like you're flying an old WW1 triplane and trying to increase lift by flapping your arms in the open cockpit.

[Ibrandul Mike]

For that test you would need the help of PGI...
Or you have to start a fresh account after the system is implemented.

Which might be a bit late for the test...

I think it will feel more rewarding than the current system. As I think the current event structure feels much better than the old ones.
But obviously I have no numbers for that. And just because I think so now does not mean I will think the same after skilling 100 mechs (random number taken).

[Greyhart]

Ibrandul Mike, on 09 February 2017 - 05:58 AM, said:

For that test you would need the help of PGI...
Or you have to start a fresh account after the system is implemented.

Which might be a bit late for the test...

I think it will feel more rewarding than the current system. As I think the current event structure feels much better than the old ones.
But obviously I have no numbers for that. And just because I think so now does not mean I will think the same after skilling 100 mechs (random number taken).

that is sort of my point. Everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about the numbers, but I think comparing the new system to the old is like comparing oranges and apples.

The ping of gaining a skill point every 2 games is likely (I think) to make levelling feel easier rather than grinding just to get speed tweak.

Yes the PTS is not going to show this part of the new system.

I think if you go in with the mentality that there is only one goal and that is to master the mech then you are going to be very unhappy. If however you're focused on getting that one more skill point for the next improvement you'll find it more enjoyable.

[ForceUser]

A half decent first win of the day should give you enough XP and cbills for 2 skillpoints. More if you're on premium. During events I've had 10k+ XP matches and on ym premium mechs with premium running I can get 500k+ cbills.

Then theres CW where a single match can be 15k XP and 1mill cbills or more.

[Orville Righteous]

The Skill Trees 'feels' pretty weird to me.

I didn't expect to have to pay Cbills the whole way down. It feels more expensive than just buying modules on the old system, especially since I didn't buy modules for every mech I mastered. I had a lot of modules, but usually I'd move them from 'mech to 'mech. I thought gearing up for CW in the old system was expensive, but this is going to be more expensive.

The 'Upper Chassis' skill tree feels weird to me as well. I invested in it on one mech and was shocked at how far my torso weapons could fire. Arm lock didn't function on this mech, the torso had the same range of movement.

The PPC Velocity is kind of scary. I think the HBK-IICs and Huntsman that are skilled up are going to be pretty scary. Dodging those long range PPC blasts is going to be harder that's for sure.

It's kind of funny, one of my worries about the skill tree system was that I'd have so many C-bills I wouldn't really need to play anymore. That worry went out the window. I think I'm going to be C-bill poor pretty quickly.

I'm also pretty worried about skilled up vs non-skilled up mechs. It seems like there is an even bigger difference between a brand new mech and master mechs.

[ForceUser]

Orville Righteous, on 09 February 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

I thought gearing up for CW in the old system was expensive, but this is going to be more expensive.

Factually untrue.

A CW drop deck contains at least 2 different weight classes, sometimes as many as 4. In the old system that means you need to buy and elite 6 to 12 mechs and master 4 of them. You then need to buy 4 sets of Radar Dep, Seismic and 2 weapon modules. OH and you need to unlock those modules with GXP first.

In the new system you need to buy 4 mechs regardless of weight class and no modules.

You tell me what's going to cost you more?

Edited by ForceUser, 09 February 2017 - 07:54 AM.

[Bud Crue]

ForceUser, on 09 February 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

You tell me what's going to cost you more?

Speaking as someone who was once very enthusiastic about CW, this system would certainly cost more. If you are like I (was) you may have had mulitple decks set up for CW. Perhaps even 1-2 for each map. All of my mechs for those decks were mastered and kitted out. Now in terms of XP and Cbills the vast majority of my mechs will need significant investment to get them ready for CW again.

Even under your view of you just "need to buy 4 mechs"; the relative cost of getting 4 mechs ready for CW just in terms of XP is 3 times greater than previously.

[lazytopaz]

ForceUser, on 09 February 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Factually untrue.

A CW drop deck contains at least 2 different weight classes, sometimes as many as 4. In the old system that means you need to buy and elite 6 to 12 mechs and master 4 of them. You then need to buy 4 sets of Radar Dep, Seismic and 2 weapon modules. OH and you need to unlock those modules with GXP first.

In the new system you need to buy 4 mechs regardless of weight class and no modules.

You tell me what's going to cost you more?

Tell that to new players who have no idea what to choose, how to build their mechs and which skill is a "good choice" and which one is meh.
With their near empty pockets after finishing academy and buying first mech. People will have some spare cash if they go light/medium... but if they go heavy or assault (and/or clan tech at that)... there is a huge need to adjust new player money rewards for first 50 games or just give every fresh account +20 mil cbill and be done with it.

Edited by lazytopaz, 09 February 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[ForceUser]

Bud Crue, on 09 February 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Speaking as someone who was once very enthusiastic about CW, this system would certainly cost more. If you are like I (was) you may have had mulitple decks set up for CW. Perhaps even 1-2 for each map. All of my mechs for those decks were mastered and kitted out. Now in terms of XP and Cbills the vast majority of my mechs will need significant investment to get them ready for CW again.

Even under your view of you just "need to buy 4 mechs"; the relative cost of getting 4 mechs ready for CW just in terms of XP is 3 times greater than previously.

No.

If you have multiple drop decks of mechs, all fitted out with modules, then that's 18 mill cbills in modules PER MECH. How much does it cost to master a mech with the new system and that includes the incorporated modules? That's right 9 mill.

So for every dropdeck you are in fact saving 36mill in the new system.

How is that more expensive?

[Bud Crue]

ForceUser, on 09 February 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

No.

If you have multiple drop decks of mechs, all fitted out with modules, then that's 18 mill cbills in modules PER MECH. How much does it cost to master a mech with the new system and that includes the incorporated modules? That's right 9 mill.

So for every dropdeck you are in fact saving 36mill in the new system.

How is that more expensive?

In cbills alone. It's not. There are a heck of a lot more costs (see above) than just c-bills.

[Ori Disciple]

Looking at my stats, I'll be getting a skill point every other match, as I make on average 847 xp per match. C-bill wise I'm golden. While I DO think it's still a bit expensive for newer players, I personally don't have any issues with building up the skill points.

[Orville Righteous]

ForceUser, on 09 February 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Factually untrue.

A CW drop deck contains at least 2 different weight classes, sometimes as many as 4. In the old system that means you need to buy and elite 6 to 12 mechs and master 4 of them. You then need to buy 4 sets of Radar Dep, Seismic and 2 weapon modules. OH and you need to unlock those modules with GXP first.

In the new system you need to buy 4 mechs regardless of weight class and no modules.

You tell me what's going to cost you more?

I'll just use radar deprivation as an example. I had 8 Radar Deprivation modules at one point, enough for 2 decks. I could move them in an out of the mechs in my two decks. If I wanted to change a mech in the deck, I'd remove the modules from one mech and add it to the new one. I wouldn't have to buy a new module. The modules were a one time cost before. I only needed enough to outfit the mechs in my drop deck.

If I want to outfit my mechs under the new system, won't I have to skill up the mech all the way to Radar Deprivation? Aren't I essentially going to have to get that for every mech I move into the deck? If I rearrange my deck, those mechs are going to have to be skilled up, which costs C-bills.

I've experimented with a lot of different mechs in my drop decks, especially as the tonnages go up or down, but I used the same 8 Radar Deps and the same 8 Seismic Sensors. I didn't have to buy more. Also, if I decide something isn't working (I'd rather have Target Info Gathering instead of Seismic), I could just switch it out. Now I'm going to have to respec it won't I? Respecing costs C-Bills. There wasn't any respecing in the past.

BTW, I had mechs that were mastered under the new system, but they won't be under the new system. It's going to cost me C-bills to get them newly mastered. That's a fact. I'm going to end up with skills in things like Hill Climb and Improved Gyros (which I don't want). Those unwanted skills are going to cost me C-bills.

I'm going to have to experiment to see if I can equip my mechs similarly to the old system. I know I didn't have 100% Radar Deprivation on any mech when I was playing around last night. I had mechs that were fully protected before that won't be now. A lot of them will be at 20% max, or less. It's kind of hard to tell with the number of C-bills they give you on the PTS. I don't think I'm going to the abundance of C-bills on live when the skill trees goes live, even with the module refunds.

[Greyhart]

and we are back on the numbers. which I really didn't want this to be about.

I wanted to discuss if the new system had a better sense of progression.

Progress on the old system was only about if you had mastered (progress from 0 to mastered was not satisfying). Does the new system just make that longer or is it a satisfying experience going from 0 to 91?

[ForceUser]

Bud Crue, on 09 February 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

In cbills alone. It's not. There are a heck of a lot more costs (see above) than just c-bills.

Do you mean the GXP costs for the modules? Or maybe the having to elite 2 other mechs in the weight class? Or do you mean having to basic two other variants, possibly much worse *per mech*?

Edited by ForceUser, 09 February 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Ori Disciple]

Greyhart, on 09 February 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

and we are back on the numbers. which I really didn't want this to be about.

I wanted to discuss if the new system had a better sense of progression.

Progress on the old system was only about if you had mastered (progress from 0 to mastered was not satisfying). Does the new system just make that longer or is it a satisfying experience going from 0 to 91?

The thing is, it DOES cost C-bills and XP to get that progression, and it's worth taking into account. if it takes too long to get even one skill point due to cost, it won't be satisfying, regardless of how the upgrades actually feel. It's the same the other way around too, really. If you get them too fast, you won't be able to really appreciate the progression.