23 replies to this topic

[Skribs]

Once again, I have to stress the C-Bill costs of leveling Mechs. Currently, I have the following stats:

• I currently have 8 million C-Bills.
  
• I own 159 Mechs
  
• I have about 100 Mechs fully configured with the engines, upgrades, and weapons that I want. That leaves about 60 Mechs I still need engines and potentially upgrades and weapons for, which I am too broke to buy at the moment
  
• I should get 150 million to 200 million back from modules. That should tell you how many modules I have. Hint: I have less than 10 Mechs fully moduled out.

This is where I currently stand. This means that in the new system, at 5.4 million C-Bills per Mech, I will have roughly 30 Mechs mastered. I will still need engines for 50 of my Mechs, I will have less than 40% of my Mechs capable of going into combat at full potential as I do now (30 vs. 80), but I will have 3-4x the Mechs at full potential with no module swapping.


Why do I have more Mechs than engines? Why am I so broke? Because I've bought Mechs with Mech packs that I haven't played yet, due in large part to a large hiatus I took from the game due to PC issues I had a while back. I also used to swap engines and I either swap modules or don't even bother.

PGI, let me ask you this: do you want to sell more Mechs? I'm sure you could use the money I'd spend on Mech Packs and/or Mechbays. If I have to farm up 5 million C-Bills to level each of my Mechs that I already have XP on, I won't be buying any new Mechs for a long time. While the costs right now aren't prohibitive enough that I won't quit right away, they are still high enough that I may burn out just leveling my Mechs. At the very least, it will suck to go from 80 potentially-ready Mechs to 30.

I strongly urge you to keep the XP costs around what they are now (56k instead of 73k, so around 650 per point) and to remove C-Bills entirely from the leveling grind. I'd like to keep my Mechs combat ready, and not lose half my force of fully leveled Mechs.

Edited by Skribs, 20 February 2017 - 11:10 PM.

[soapyfrog]

Exactly this.

PGI does not seem to understand how they are punishing people who paid into the game (to say nothing of the increased grind for ALL players), and also discouraging spending more money on this game.

A reasonable grind (and less punishment for experimentation) mean people will BUY MORE! And buying in to the game should absolve you of the need to worry about c-bills so much.

[Bellum Dominum]

Sorry but the argument : buying into the game should absolve you of the need to worry about c-bills so much
is both a logical fallacy as well as promoting pay to win.
logical fallacy: buying into the game includes purchasing cbills
pay to win: since I bought my mechs with mc I shouldn't have to do what others do to have my mechs mastered

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 21 February 2017 - 01:59 PM.

[soapyfrog]

Bellum Dominum, on 21 February 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Sorry but the argument : buying into the game should absolve you of the need to worry about c-bills so much
is both a logical fallacy as well as promoting pay to win.
logical fallacy: buying into the game includes purchasing cbills
pay to win: since I bought my mechs with mc I shouldn't have to do what others do to have my mechs mastered

Free to play games operate on the principle of pay for convenience, which is so far how MWO has been. Paying for stuff with real money instead of in game currency because you want it sooner pretty much defines this style of game.

Pay to win implies you pay for a battlefield advantage. The closest MWO has come to this is certain heroes at certain times and early access to mechs. In the realm of free to play games, this is pretty much the least pay to win you can get.

In any case... I already worked to get my mechs mastered (not even sure how you think I didn't), and of course I don't think anyone should have to put up with this new system, which increases the grind for all, pointlessly.

[Roughneck45]

For every variant mastered the cost of the next variant should be reduced.

That simple.

Even with the reduced costs the new system seriously hurts the people with large mech garages. Its still going to cost me a few billion c-bills to max out the garage.

[Skribs]

Buying shouldn't absolve me of the need to worry about C-Bills. At this point, I haven't complained about the cost of anything on live. However, if this goes live, then I will buy less Mechs because I will have to re-level the Mechs that I already own. If this goes live, PGI will make less on Mech Packs as players either A) quit, or spend their time on old Mechs that they have to level again.

I'm more upset that the work I put in to leveling 80 Mechs is going to be gone and I'll have 30 Mechs leveled after the change. I'm telling PGI the consequences of making me re-level 50 of my Mechs and setting me back so far on my other Mechs is that I won't buy Mech Packs, because I'll be too busy essentially starting over on the game.

It's not a threat or an ultimatum, it's the simple fact that if they take away my progress, and I have to start halfway over, it's going to be longer before I need to buy anything, if leveling Mechs is my goal. PGI is really shooting themselves in the foot if they want to sell Mech packs.

[Bellum Dominum]

soapyfrog, on 21 February 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Free to play games operate on the principle of pay for convenience, which is so far how MWO has been. Paying for stuff with real money instead of in game currency because you want it sooner pretty much defines this style of game.

Pay to win implies you pay for a battlefield advantage. The closest MWO has come to this is certain heroes at certain times and early access to mechs. In the realm of free to play games, this is pretty much the least pay to win you can get.

In any case... I already worked to get my mechs mastered (not even sure how you think I didn't), and of course I don't think anyone should have to put up with this new system, which increases the grind for all, pointlessly.

Roughneck45, on 21 February 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

For every variant mastered the cost of the next variant should be reduced.

That simple.

Even with the reduced costs the new system seriously hurts the people with large mech garages. Its still going to cost me a few billion c-bills to max out the garage.

Skribs, on 21 February 2017 - 10:07 PM, said:

Buying shouldn't absolve me of the need to worry about C-Bills. At this point, I haven't complained about the cost of anything on live. However, if this goes live, then I will buy less Mechs because I will have to re-level the Mechs that I already own. If this goes live, PGI will make less on Mech Packs as players either A) quit, or spend their time on old Mechs that they have to level again.

I'm more upset that the work I put in to leveling 80 Mechs is going to be gone and I'll have 30 Mechs leveled after the change. I'm telling PGI the consequences of making me re-level 50 of my Mechs and setting me back so far on my other Mechs is that I won't buy Mech Packs, because I'll be too busy essentially starting over on the game.

It's not a threat or an ultimatum, it's the simple fact that if they take away my progress, and I have to start halfway over, it's going to be longer before I need to buy anything, if leveling Mechs is my goal. PGI is really shooting themselves in the foot if they want to sell Mech packs.

#1 Yes getting to 'fully mastered' faster/cheaper is a battle field advantage. Don't lie to yourself or the rest of the community. I'd go into all of the hows and whys but if you don't see that for yourself then I think that goes to validity of your complaints.

#2 You PLAYED A GAME to get your mechs mastered for a system that is not going to exist anymore. You, right along with everyone else, have done NOTHING towards the new system. Not a thing. PGI is being awesome to work in a system to give us credit towards the new system for the time we have in the old. Stop making arguments as if this new system has always been in place. It hasn't been in place anymore than you have done any 'work' on this game.

#3 @Roughneck yeah but do you actually already have them all mastered? I've quite a few in my garage that aren't mastered. I only bother to finish out mastery on the mechs that I actually play and lets face it currently there are way too many variants that are not playable. (Also again they are mastered to an old system. They are not even basic'd in the system that has yet come.)

#4 Last but.... Skribs. I hate to break it to you but your 80 mechs... is barely a good start. (I've gone through more mechs than that via cbills alone) Yes your whining all over the forums about this one issue and every thread saying you are going to leave if they don't make the game easier for you is an ultimatum every bit as much as mine is when I say if they cowtow to the whiners on this that it will be the final straw for me. As far as shooting themselves in the foot well I really hope PGI is listening to those of us that have nearly every pre-order the game has ever put out instead of people that just came along and consider playing the game to be a grind.

#5 On the note of how many mechs myself and MANY others have gone through (bought and sold) just to be able to master the mech we wanted are we going to see any refund for that at all? Nope. Guess what I've yet to read from any of us any whining about that either. It is simple why as well: it is all part of playing the game. Between pre-orders and old weekend challenges I had over a year of banked premium time for more than a couple of years. I believe as soon as the Assassin mech is released that I'll again be over a year of banked premium time. Yes literally an entire year in hours of premium time. So again... 80 mechs... is a cute start. (Correction I still have over a year: 429 days to be precise of banked premium time.)

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 22 February 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Bellum Dominum, on 22 February 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

#3 @Roughneck yeah but do you actually already have them all mastered? I've quite a few in my garage that aren't mastered. I only bother to finish out mastery on the mechs that I actually play and lets face it currently there are way too many variants that are not playable. (Also again they are mastered to an old system. They are not even basic'd in the system that has yet come.)

No, not all of them, but enough of them that the module refund isn't going to cover it.

"Way too many variants that are not playable" That right there combined with the rule of 3 is my biggest gripe. At least before we could buy a mech pack and say "I got these others because I need to basic them". Now, I see those other mechs and think what a waste of money, they have no reason to be there anymore.

Removal of the 3 rule is good, zero benefit to having multiple variants is bad. It directly affects the people who have supported the game the most.

Edited by Roughneck45, 22 February 2017 - 11:20 AM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Completely agree with you there Roughneck and is a huge part of why I am so strongly opposed to simplification of the skill tree/system. More options in that system means more of a chance to make those 'unplayable' mechs playable. The quirkening helped to make that happen and as bad as quirks are it was a step in the right direction. I'd like to see the new skill system take us farther down the path of getting every, or at least as many as possible, mech to be playable.

[Skribs]

Yes Bellum, because this is a make or break issue for a lot of people.

My time and money are valuable to me, and if the time I put in on a paid premium account is mostly reset I'm going to be upset.

There isn't an option to keep playing on the old version if I want to keep playing. For example, when Diablo 3 came out, you could start over on D3 or continue on D2. If this goes live as is, most players will feel that most of their work is undone until they relevel everything.

At the very least PGI will sell less mechs while people are relevelling. That means no mechbays, mechs, mech pachs, champions or heroes, less colors and patterns, etc. Not out of spite, but simply because we have other things to do than to level new mechs.

At worst, players will either be so upset or get so bored of regrinding the same mechs that they will quit and the community will suffer. Now, most of the people I see complaining are whales like me who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on tgis game, sometimes per year. The whales are how the game stays active and stays free for others. And we're the ones upset.

PGI has taken real money from me so that I can progress faster, for them to reset that progress is a slap in the face to a paying customer. There's a difference between adding content and expecting players to pay more vs. essentially forcing me start over.

[Bellum Dominum]

They aren't forcing you to start over. They are adding new content, and changing current content in the process. Every single game in existence today warns that this can and most likely will happen as they progress in development.

Again the claim that they will sell less of anything is solely based upon speculation regarding current customers. You don't think there will be any new players, or returning players? The current player base is much smaller than it was at one time (evidenced by how often Tier 4 players get stuck in matches with Tier 1 players these days), the promise of this finally coming to fruition has brought some players back (myself included) and once implemented I'd expect it to bring even more back (there are plenty who left and have stayed gone due to lack of any real developmental progress which this is so it is reasonable to speculate that it will bring more back).

The diablo comparison does not apply as those were two completely different games. 'Same world, same premise for the most part' sure but still as far as code goes from start to finish different games.

Skribs, on 23 February 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

Yes Bellum, because this is a make or break issue for a lot of people.


PGI has taken real money from me so that I can progress faster, for them to reset that progress is a slap in the face to a paying customer. There's a difference between adding content and expecting players to pay more vs. essentially forcing me start over.

You are right it was for a lot of people (hundreds possibly even thousands) forward progression was a make or break and they left because of the lack, the few that claim it is make or break today if they don't get their way don't qualify as a lot when you look at the actual numbers of the player base. 50 or even 100 might seem to be a lot to you, but for a world wide game with thousands of players (tens of thousands at one time) those numbers are hardly a drop in the bucket.

'has taken real money from me so I can progress faster' ~ that really is all it boils down for you isn't it? 'don't hurt my pay to win status' ... premium time isn't being taken out of the system, hero mechs aren't being taken away, a system of refund for progress in the old system is already in place so there isn't even a 'reset' of any sort happening.

[soapyfrog]

Bellum Dominum, on 23 February 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

They aren't forcing you to start over. They are adding new content, and changing current content in the process. Every single game in existence today warns that this can and most likely will happen as they progress in development.

The skill tree is not "new content". It is a reformatting of existing content.

Bellum Dominum, on 23 February 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

You don't think there will be any new players, or returning players?

Nope. Not a significant amount. Because what is the selling point here? "hey old players we increased the grind and bankrupted you, won't you come on back? Hey new players, sign up for increased grind! Don't expect to be able to afford anything!!"

Sad trombone.

Listen Bellum. I'm glad you are happy. Play on. But for a lot of us who stand to lose a LOT, the incentive, the motivation to keep playing & contributing really fades away.

[Bellum Dominum]

soapyfrog, on 23 February 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

The skill tree is not "new content". It is a reformatting of existing content.

Nope. Not a significant amount. Because what is the selling point here? "hey old players we increased the grind and bankrupted you, won't you come on back? Hey new players, sign up for increased grind! Don't expect to be able to afford anything!!"


Sad trombone.

Listen Bellum. I'm glad you are happy. Play on. But for a lot of us who stand to lose a LOT, the incentive, the motivation to keep playing & contributing really fades away.

while I understand that is your limited view of it they are scrapping the old system, not simply adding to it, and putting in a new system that is greatly increased in purpose. hence worthy of being called new content

Nope. Not a significant amount. Because what is the selling point here? ~ How about the fact they are actually finally making an attempt to do what has been wanted by a very large portion of the people that left? Regardless of your personally feeling affronted by the changes.

increased grind and bankrupted .... again very limited perspective and not at all what is actually happening. the bankrupted part an especially egregious perspective

happy? only on the fact they are doing something. actually haven't been able to get a direct view of what they are doing as of yet. just got the portal reinstalled (just recently had reinstalled the game it's self. lack of progession in development had led me to just trashing the whole game.) so once the PTS is actually back up, was supposed to be today but it's not... then I'll gladly be criticizing actual issues with the prospective changes instead of simply responding to the same garbage spam on the forums.

[once the pts is back up I think I'll take a brand new mech and try to master it as if starting with 0 resources. I'll record it as well. see how long it takes for me to do so.]

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 23 February 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Ruar]

The only way to make this right is to provide every mastered mech with some kind of baseline amount of skill points. It doesn't have to be all 91 SP, but it does need to be the equivalent of what we currently have. Anything less is going to be a hardship on the players and drive people away. There will always be a minority of the players who think everything should be painful, but those are not the ones who provide the bulk of the funding. Making this concession won't drive those people away either, but lack of fair compensation will cause players to quit.

The vast majority of players aren't trying to get bonus skill points beyond what we already have in game. They just want to be see their current work reflected in the changes. I have purchased multiple versions of mechs simply so I could master the one variant I liked but I sure as hell will be pissed if I have to rebuy something I've already unlocked. I don't even plan on playing most of the mechs I own but I'll be pissed if my previous work is removed and I have nothing to show for it.

[Skribs]

Ok, then its like WoW, where they replaced content and changed their talent system and lost so many subscribers that they don't even publish the numbers anymore.

Point is, if all we get is most of our mechs are now unskilled because we cant afford the cbill cost, its going to feel like a reset.

[soapyfrog]

Bellum Dominum, on 23 February 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

[once the pts is back up I think I'll take a brand new mech and try to master it as if starting with 0 resources. I'll record it as well. see how long it takes for me to do so.]

I see you have not played on the PTS before; you won't be able to level I'm afraid. 4v4 and long wait times (often infinite wait times as the population drops off).

[Bellum Dominum]

soapyfrog, on 23 February 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

I see you have not played on the PTS before; you won't be able to level I'm afraid. 4v4 and long wait times (often infinite wait times as the population drops off).

been a couple years and no I didn't spend much time on it. was part of beta (to include the 2 years of beta after 'release' lol). so I've had my fill of the testing. not enough people using it to actually be able to test these days eh? that's too bad. I'll give it a go in any case. said I'd give it a shot so I'll at least make the effort.

[Bellum Dominum]

Skribs, on 23 February 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Ok, then its like WoW, where they replaced content and changed their talent system and lost so many subscribers that they don't even publish the numbers anymore.

Point is, if all we get is most of our mechs are now unskilled because we cant afford the cbill cost, its going to feel like a reset.

The only reason Blizzard ever reported sub numbers was to give investors/shareholders information that could help them gauge current and future income. With the advent of the game time token, the waters have been muddied so it's less useful as a number for investors and now they just look at raw performance numbers.

However enterprising players that put in the due diligence can come up reasonably accurate numbers and have. Legion (the latest update) which embodies everything you talked about has been estimated to add as many as 10 million new subscribers (correction put them back above the 10 million sub mark I should have written not new subs ). Pretty easy to find this information too. Google works.

Their stock certainly does not reflect a loss of revenue:
https://www.google.c...chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.historic...l-stock-prices/

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 24 February 2017 - 05:45 PM.

[soapyfrog]

Wow gives you a bunch of new content to level through, never makes you lose XP for any reason, has 100% free respec, and moreover practically throws gold at you.

If blizzard pulled what PGI is doing, i.e. expanded the talent trees and knocked everyone back 10 levels while providing zero new content, and the charged you 10,000 gold per talent point, and then made you lose a level every time you wanted to change spec... well I think they'd probably lose most of their customers.

[Andi Nagasia]

soapyfrog, on 24 February 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Wow gives you a bunch of new content to level through, never makes you lose XP for any reason, has 100% free respec, and moreover practically throws gold at you.

If blizzard pulled what PGI is doing, i.e. expanded the talent trees and knocked everyone back 10 levels while providing zero new content, and the charged you 10,000 gold per talent point, and then made you lose a level every time you wanted to change spec... well I think they'd probably lose most of their customers.

the new skill Tree is much more expansive then the old Skill Tree,
the new system isnt 1:1 and i dont get why people are still comparing it as such,
if it costs less to get all the buffs you enjoy now, in the new system whats the problem,

PGI is reworking the Skill Tree, in other Games this would be Akin to them increasing the level cap,
if a Game Producer decides to increase the level Cap, And the Lv cap goes from 30(Max) to 40(Max)
would you complain that your Lv30 Character is no longer at the Max Lv in the game?
and would you Demand that your Character be grandfathered to Lv40?

think about it, this is no different then WOW increasing the Level Cap,