23 replies to this topic

[Skrapha]

Hey all,

So, In the communities opinion, which works better for you, multiple small caliber AC / UAC or a single / double large caliber?

Examples:

1x AC20 vs. 3x AC5s
4 lbx2's vs. 1 lbx10's

And so forth an so on. Multiple quick jabs vs. a single slow roundhouse. Long face time vs. short.
Id love to hear the communities experience and opinions on various combos they found to be useful, or have found to be rather...."lots of bark, not much bite"....

Anyway, any input or thoughts would be well received!

We shall ride eternal, all shiny and chrome!

[Leone]

I'm a fan of multipule Inner Sphere AC 5s. In fact unless it's only got the one hardpoint, pretty much all of my AC 20's've been replaced with dual Uac 5s.

As for triple Ac 5s, well... Theres a reason I love me my BNC-3E
https://vimeo.com/142972458

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 21 February 2017 - 01:48 PM.

[aGentleWarrior]

Quality is relativ... in my opinion the 10 ac, c-uac, lbx are the most versatile ones of they're type.... But I have a dual c-uac 5 hellbringer...
witness me!

[Rintero Pryde]

To be specific, your first proposal (AC20 VS 3 AC5) THE 3 AC5 would be preferable because they would cycle faster, providing higher dps together than the single AC20, as well as be able to reach twice as far.

As far as your LB-x question, the single ten will get you much further. I can say that in a year of playing, I have only once seen and never fallen to a multiple LBX2 build. LB10s and 20s rule in that department.

Generally speaking, Any time a mech has UAC jam chance reduction, use a UAC on it. Always run an AC5 in at least a pair, never alone. If you have only one ballistic slot, the AC10 will be your best all-rounder. The AC20 only has an effective range of 320m. Plan around that. If your mech can't take a few hits (because at AC20 range it will) then don't mount it.

LBXS are generally suppression weapons. They scare the hell out of your enemy more than they do damage, and aren't as effective until armor has been stripped and their crit bonuses come into play. The more LB pellets, the better. The exception to this is when your enemy is in spitting distance.

Generally limiting face time is always a good move no matter the weapon system, but you should do more than just pop and disappear according to some dry self-imposed algorithm. Challenge yourself to learn how to judge the combat scenario and determine ACCURATELY when you've done as much damage as you can and you need to seek cover again. It's gonna take some trial and error, but it will get you to that magic moment when your enemy isn't paying attention, and allows you to shred his mech .

Hope this helps!

Edited by Rintero Pryde, 21 February 2017 - 02:03 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

Skrapha, on 21 February 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Hey all,

So, In the communities opinion, which works better for you, multiple small caliber AC / UAC or a single / double large caliber?

Examples:

1x AC20 vs. 3x AC5s
4 lbx2's vs. 1 lbx10's

And so forth an so on. Multiple quick jabs vs. a single slow roundhouse. Long face time vs. short.
Id love to hear the communities experience and opinions on various combos they found to be useful, or have found to be rather...."lots of bark, not much bite"....

Anyway, any input or thoughts would be well received!

We shall ride eternal, all shiny and chrome!

One isn't necessarily better than the other, they simply serve different roles.

The grouped small ones are for ranged fire suppression. Lay down a constant stream of AC/5 or AC/2 or LB-2-X and all but the boldest will retreat behind the nearest rock/assault 'mech.

The big guns are better for brawling. The AC/20 (IS) puts 20 damage right where you want it, instantly. So you can go BOOOM! and then twist away to shield your giant, crit-prone AC.

Likewise with the larger LB-X's: They are best when boated with a bunch of SRMs for a high-crit (because each projectile has a separate crit chance) splat brawler build. The closer you are, the tighter the projectiles when they impact the target, so LB-X and SRM builds tend to be face-huggers.

So:
-If you want to piss people off at range, go for lots of lighter ballistics.
-If you want to make people cry up close, go for one big one.

[Rogue Jedi]

completely depends on what you are after.

an IS AC20 gives a good short range punch but takes 4 seconds to reload, 3 AC5 weighs a lot more, but gives 15 damage every 1.5 seconds.
with Clan tech the basic facts remain the same but they fire a burst rather than a single shell for each triger pull.

which is better totaly depends on your Mech and the role you want it to fulfill, if you are putting them on a HBK-4G for example you would have to sacrifice so much to put on the 3 AC5s that you would basicly have to choose between armor or ammo, while that Mech was literaly designed to run an AC20 so it works way better with the AC20, however a Marauder, Jagermech or Mauler ether are more of an option and the 3x AC5 could be a valid option.

if you want to brawl then take the AC20, if you want mid range fire support take AC5s, if you have 30-35 tons available the 3 AC5s will be better, with less than 30 tons 2 AC5 vs AC20 the AC20 is margnly better in my opinion, especialy as the AC5 needs more tonnage, with a very minimum of 20 tons for 2 AC5 + 4 tons ammo vs 18 tonns for AC20 + 4 tons of ammo ^{(I usualy prefer 3 tons per AC5 so 22 tons total as opposed to 15-18 tons total for AC20 + ammo, depending on the Mech I may want as little as 3 tons of AC20 ammo or as much as 6 tons per AC20)}

[Roughneck45]

Both?

Multiple smaller caliber weapons are more fun I think. Quad AC5 Jager is a blast.

[mxs]

This is a very informative topic. I was thinking about putting ballistics along with lasers on my StormCrow SCR-Prime.
What might give me the best BANG for the buck. (sorry about the BANG thing.....)
Thanks

[Black Phoebe]

For midrange builds Gauss+4ERML works pretty well. If you don't like Gauss, an UAC10 could be used as well for the same purpose. For Brawling i usually use UAC20+3 SRM4 or UAC10+4 SRM4, but if you prefer lasers, a bunch of cSPL should work pretty well too.

If you don't like UAC's you can try a LBX AC instead. Less DPS but they run cooler and can't jam.

[Void Angel]

Generally, big punch is better than fast damage. But - particularly if you are quirked for it - an array of smaller autocannons can be effective at longer ranges. Just make sure that you're not bringing too much gun for your tonnage and cooling; you should always be able to overheat, but seldom have to.

[Rogue Jedi]

mxs, on 21 February 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

This is a very informative topic. I was thinking about putting ballistics along with lasers on my StormCrow SCR-Prime.
What might give me the best BANG for the buck. (sorry about the BANG thing.....)
Thanks

on the SCR prime, unless you also have the lacarator hero Mech you can only get 1 Balistic on that Mech, so (U)(LBX) AC20 or Gauss would be your options, yes you can put AC10 or AC5 on there but that would be much reduced firepower.
uf you are after the best bang that is the LBX 20 in my opinion but sound effects are subjective and it is also the most expensive option.
Gauss is cheepest and longer range than the 20 but also has the longest cooldown and less damage,
the UAC20 is significantly cheeper than the LBX, has the option to double tap ^{(fire another burst before it has finished reloading from the first, at the risk of jamming)}, if you hold down fire it will never double tap.
The LBX AC20 is basicly a giant shotgun,
the regular AC20 is a placeholder for ammo switching LBX ACs, so costs the same as the LBX and works like a UAC without the ability to doubletap, the regular ACs are the worst option in my opinion

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 22 February 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[mxs]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to look into the LBX 20.

[mxs]

So, after some fiddling with different auto cannons, they just didn't impress me. Instead I settled for 8 C-ER medium lasers.
Lost a little armor and put as many heat sinc's on that I could. This I like. I think I will stay more with "energy" weapons going forward.

[ZeuZ_LoD]

Skrapha, on 21 February 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Hey all,

So, In the communities opinion, which works better for you, multiple small caliber AC / UAC or a single / double large caliber?

Examples:

1x AC20 vs. 3x AC5s
4 lbx2's vs. 1 lbx10's

And so forth an so on. Multiple quick jabs vs. a single slow roundhouse. Long face time vs. short.
Id love to hear the communities experience and opinions on various combos they found to be useful, or have found to be rather...."lots of bark, not much bite"....

Anyway, any input or thoughts would be well received!

We shall ride eternal, all shiny and chrome!

I think it depends on the mech and your playstyle. And also advantages vs disadvantages going certain routes. I generally love going one route just to make sure thats my strong point.

If you go all short range heavy hitters then sadboats are going to skill you from long range, specially if the bad maps like sadpine peaks or the other stupid ice one. When I play my Dire Whale Ultraviolet geared up with 2 LBX-20's and 3 SRM 6's you can bet they will feel that hit instantly, again super strong up close, 'melee' range if you will. Then again as I said if you get one of the dumb giant ice maps then you are at a massive disadvantage, then you can just autorun in a direction and tab out and read forums like I do if that map comes up.

Or, if you want to feel sorry about yourself you can always round things up a bit with some up close hitters and fire sadrms back to the boats with 2 lbx 20s and 3 lrm (mix of 20,15 and 5). But, thats no fun.

I always prefer the instant big bomb (AC20) vs tiny ankle bites. Its just a matter of preference really. Do you want to pepper people from a distance for some damage? Do you want to lay the hammer down close range?

The 2 mechs I have and only play are my Atlas DDC and Dire Wolf Ultraviolet. My Atlas I only run 1 setup but my Dire I have 2.

Atlas:
AC20
3 SRM 6's
ECM

Dire Wolf:
8 LBX-2's (love the 990m range)
Hilarious setup watching people back peddle when they dont know whats peppering them from way out.


and
2 LBX-20
3 SRM 6's.

Again very bad vs long range sadboats but very strong up close. And another downside of the Dire Whale is the turn speed. Any chihuahua with a brain can kill you with ankle bites, so beware.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Rogue Jedi, on 22 February 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

the regular ACs are the worst option in my opinion

I like them. They are the same size as LBX's and fire with less heat than UACs and jam....never.

The cooldown times are the same but the AC's have the same DPS (double taps increases the chance of jamming right?) as UACS.

And the Clan AC's have a better DPH ratio and the same DPS/T. And the AC5 and AC2 has an extra range of 90 yards.

[Rogue Jedi]

LikeUntoGod, on 22 February 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

I like them. They are the same size as LBX's and fire with less heat than UACs and jam....never.

The cooldown times are the same but the AC's have the same DPS (double taps increases the chance of jamming right?) as UACS.

And the Clan AC's have a better DPH ratio and the same DPS/T. And the AC5 and AC2 has an extra range of 90 yards.

my problems with them are price and size, they are about 25% more expensive and more massive (1 more slot) than the UACs, all you are paying the extra for is the impossiblilty of jamming and slightly diferant sound effect at the cost of being unable to double tap, if you hold down fire on a UAC you will never double tap and therefore never jam.

If they work for you then great, but I cannot recomend them, and feel it is important people know the downsides before wasting spending cbills and slots on them

[Razorfire]

I felt the same way about lasers vs ac for a long while. It took a few dozen drops with a supportive group on teamspeak to lead me down the righteous path of dakka-dakka. I love my laser builds, but it would be a shame to not explore ballistic weapons for several reasons.

0. Dakka Dakka Dakka Dakka.

1. They produce less heat, meaning you have more opportunity to lay down fire on your enemy without having to duck away and cool down. For this, they both reward and encourage aggressive playstyles. With brawling making a strong comeback, ballistic weapons have never been more relevant.

2. They are pin point, doing all damage to the one component you hit, rather than lasers that suffer from long burn times and therefore are easier to defend against by 'armor rolling' Clan AC tech is somewhat underpowered compared to IS because of this, as Clan ACs fire multiple projectiles per shot. Not that you shouldn't experiment with them, but insofar as clan lasers are superior to IS, IS ballistics are superior to Clan.

3. They are a more effective psychological weapon than lasers. My quad AC2 Jagermech is one of the nastiest versions of this. It takes a very experienced pilot to face down the rapid fire, constant explosion in your face, cockpit shaking, and generally very loud rattling of an AC-boating enemy, or worse yet, a firing line of AC-toting enemy mechs. I have sent numerous approaching 100 tonner enemies twisting in desperate defense and backing up into their teammates out of fear. Didn't matter that I only did 20 damage to him. In his mind, he was being melted by an entire lance. I have suppressed entire pushes in this manner without even landing a single shot.

There are tricks to running AC weapons that you will learn over time, through the forums, or with the help of a team on VOIP or Teamspeak. I'll give you the 3x AC-5 example. Put two AC5s on mouse button 1 in chain fire, and the other on mouse button 2. Hold down mouse button one and then press and hold button 2 one second after the first one fires. The three synch up for constant fire and max psychological damage. You'll be surprised how fast you can fire in this way.

There are other nasty tricks with UACs that you will learn over time. The 4x UAC-5 King Crab is one of the most evil mechs in the game in the right hands. 1,000 damage matches are not uncommon when playing with the right team in group queue or with support in solo drops. The Kodiak is the highest expression of the dakka-dakka mech. Nothing else comes close. If I see another LRM Kodiak... ... come on people!

Anyway, that's my 35 cents. Have fun with the ballistics in this game. They are a treat. Even the much overlooked machine gun. One of my favorite mechs is a Shadowcat with 2x S or SP-Lasers, 4-6 SRMs, and 6x MGs. Fun times.

Dakka Dakka my friend.

[mxs]

Razorfire:

(3. They are a more effective psychological weapon than lasers. My quad AC2 Jagermech is one of the nastiest versions of this. It takes a very experienced pilot to face down the rapid fire, constant explosion in your face, cockpit shaking, and generally very loud rattling of an AC-boating enemy, or worse yet, a firing line of AC-toting enemy mechs. I have sent numerous approaching 100 tonner enemies twisting in desperate defense and backing up into their teammates out of fear. Didn't matter that I only did 20 damage to him. In his mind, he was being melted by an entire lance. I have suppressed entire pushes in this manner without even landing a single shot.)

You know, you're right. I've been on the receiving end of this and you've explained it perfectly. I'll have to explore the AC's a bit more.
Thanks for the input.

[ZeuZ_LoD]

mxs, on 22 February 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Razorfire:

(3. They are a more effective psychological weapon than lasers. My quad AC2 Jagermech is one of the nastiest versions of this. It takes a very experienced pilot to face down the rapid fire, constant explosion in your face, cockpit shaking, and generally very loud rattling of an AC-boating enemy, or worse yet, a firing line of AC-toting enemy mechs. I have sent numerous approaching 100 tonner enemies twisting in desperate defense and backing up into their teammates out of fear. Didn't matter that I only did 20 damage to him. In his mind, he was being melted by an entire lance. I have suppressed entire pushes in this manner without even landing a single shot.)

You know, you're right. I've been on the receiving end of this and you've explained it perfectly. I'll have to explore the AC's a bit more.
Thanks for the input.

That's because 99% of the player base is flight in the fight or flight response. You can tell right away who the fighters when they start shooting back the second you attack them. Generally the fighters will subconsciously go after each other for the fight when the rest just hide and sit back do the the lrm spam and eat boogers behind cover.

Edited by ZeuzLoD, 22 February 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[Razorfire]

ZeuzLoD, on 22 February 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

That's because 99% of the player base is flight in the fight or flight response. You can tell right away who the fighters when they start shooting back the second you attack them. Generally the fighters will subconsciously go after each other for the fight when the rest just hide and sit back do the the lrm spam and eat boogers behind cover.

Few players have the trust in their teammates necessary for effective forward pushes. Coordinating in the solo queue has come a long ways, however, since pre VOIP days.

Coordinating pushes in the solo queue actually works 80% of the time so long as there is someone willing to call the drop, they have manners and a sense of humor, and they provide clear instructions and at least a 20 second warning once their lance is in place so that other people can get into position. You don't need 12 mechs for an effective push. In fact, 6-8 is better if another 2-3 are providing some flanking threat.

The reluctance I see out there is not so much cowardice as a failure of leadership and overall communication. That's my humble opinion.

Anyway, this is bordering on topic hijacking. There are other threads here discussing all these topics.

Glad to know I've encouraged folks to give ballistics a shot. Hope to face down some of your withering fire in the queue!