137 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Confession... I love love love RACs, in TT and MW4.....
but looking at our pinpoint targeting..... I worry that the bullet firehose could either be OP as heck, in which case you know they will slap a ridiculous Jam Chance to it.... which would then make them all but useless.

I'm thinking this may be one instance that taking the MGs CoF approach might be for the best. A CoF that starts very small and tight, but the longer the burst, the wider the dispersal gets. I know there are some who have epileptic seizures at the mere mention of CoF... but tbh, after balancing allt he other factors I can personally think of... it seems like the best compromise to keep them vicious, but not OP.

How the actual jamming mechanic was factored, would of course also matter.... and truth to tell, I want SOME RNG left in it, to keep people from just gaming the things, the way they easily could with a "Jam Bar". (The only reason people truly want those is because of how easy they are to game, making UACs and RACs a 100% upgrade over std ACs)

I wouldn't be against a Jam Bar in and of itself... but only if it had some RNG built in, where one only had an approximate idea of when it would jam... and where it actualyl had a +/- % of slop in it that means sometimes you do hit it before you think you should... but other times you get more than you thought you could.

That said, I also admit...I have tussled with all the ideas I could think of... is not the same as having actually compared ALL possible ideas. So please, let's here your ideas, too.

[Metus regem]

RAC/s along with IS Large Bore UAC/s are weapon systems that I'm trying to figure out how PGI could implment them with out totally fracking up the game. About the best way I've heard to approach the large bore IS UAC/s is to have them burst fire, with one less shell per burst. How ever a RAC/5, I cannot for the life of me figure out how to handle the 1-6 round bursts it can do, safely... Perhaps a charge mechanic, where the longer you hold down the trigger the longer the burst you fire, but hold it too long and you jam... Then it becomes a case how does one deal with that with out making it easy to game (Macro)... I also support that it should be done in such a way for no one component to eat upwards of 30 damage from it either, as it would invalidate other heavier weapon systems in the IS stock pile....

[Revis Volek]

I think the gun needs a CoF as well as its own HEAT BAR to cut down on what you can do.

Just make it a gauge that builds up and goes down like a cooldown bar but have this instead of a normal cooldown for this weapon. Jam chance should be left to the UAC's IMO.


If you use the bullet firehose it heats up and you must allow it to cool down but make it independent of mech and engine heat. Not lore i know but BAH!

If we could code it to have laser and PPC direct hits heat it up from external sources that would just be awesome as well. but yea, thats asking alot me thinks.

Edited by Revis Volek, 27 February 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[BigBenn]

The best thing PGI could do is to increase the rate of fire for ALL AC's, increase heat, and increase the penalty for boating same caliber AC's (more than 1/AC20, more than 2/AC10, more than 2/AC5, and more than 3/AC2). Give quirks to certain mechs that have multiple AC's to compensate. Increase rate of fire and heat forces the user to THINK before just blasting away. Oh, and DECREASE the ammo/ton as well. Make ammo and heat an issue.

Once that is completed, then adding the HVAC's and RAC's will fall in line.

Edited by BigBenn, 27 February 2017 - 04:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Something else to think of:

TF2 had the Minigun for the heavy spew multiple bullets per trigger pull so it technically was a rapid fire LBX cannon. This could be emulated here as well and I wouldn't be too angry. It would remove some of the pinpoint problem (though the specifics regarding ammo per trigger pull and such is another discussion).

[Carl Vickers]

BigBenn, on 27 February 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

The best thing PGI could so is to increase the rate of fire for ALL AC's, increase heat, and increase the penalty for boating same caliber AC's (more than 1/AC20, more than 2/AC10, more than 2/AC5, and more than 3/AC2). Give quirks to certain mechs that have multiple AC's to compensate. Increase rate of fire and heat forces the user to THINK before just blasting away. Oh, and DECREASE the ammo/ton as well. Make ammo and heat an issue.

Once that is completed, then adding the HVAC's and RAC's will fall in line.

Lol, you want to kill AC's once and for all, no thanks.

[MechaBattler]

Spin up time. It's own heat build up. Lower damage per shot than regular AC or UAC equivalent.

[LordNothing]

depends on if they use tt rules or not. tt rules its pretty much a 6 round burst with jam chance and heat ramping up with each round. but various other mw games have implemented it in other ways. mwll has spinup and jam if you overheat it (heat bar), but generally its a continuous fire weapon. i dont like the spin up then fire mechanic myself, since real gatlings have everything synced up so the gun fires during spin up, but thats just my inner engineer screaming "WRONG!" at me. i dont remember how it was in mw4. they could do something completely different, like continuous fire and ghost spread. realistically i think they will just use the uac mechanics with different numbers, because programming is hard for pgi.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 February 2017 - 04:16 PM.

[razenWing]

I don't quite have as many interest in RAC. Their actual deployment in the video game canon isn't till MW4: Mercensaries, so to consider them mainstream... eh.

What I do care more, is the inclusion of possible tonnage fill-in weapons. X-pulse lasers... not because they are better, but they fill the niche of heavy/assault mechs that have a lot of free tonnages.

Heavy Machineguns... same... the fill the niche of some lighter mechs to use ballistics before needing the autocannons, and can do some hurt.

Edited by razenWing, 27 February 2017 - 04:13 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 27 February 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

Spin up time. It's own heat build up. Lower damage per shot than regular AC or UAC equivalent.

spin up time largely kills them in CQB, which is what RACs are supposed to shine at.

[GreenHell]

I agree with Battler.

A significant spin up time (ala gauss charge) would definitely help. Doesn't seem to stop Gauss from still being useful at close range, and takes a bit more skill to use effectively.
A "jam bar" that ramps up the "jam chance" as you keep firing would also be nice.
Cone of fire is meh. I could take it or leave it. Maybe tie it in with the size of the jam bar? I dunno :/
Obvs the range will be lower (since that's true even in the TT).

As for heat? The weapon is effectively x6 of either ac2's or ac5's, so just let the buggers overheat the normal way. No way are you keeping a mech cool with 1 or even 2 of those things fitted, no matter how many DHS you squeeze on.

Either way, I know that if the RAC's make it in game I'll be running my HBK-4G with a new toy equipped.

[LordNothing]

id rather not have spinup if at all possible for reasons in my previous post. unless were talking a hand cranked og civil war gatling gun, spinup is pretty instantaneous. russian guns are gas powered and spin up so aggressively they need breaks to prevent rapid unplanned disassembly. us guns are powered either electrically or hydraulically, and so spin up more slowly, but not slow enough to notice when you pull the trigger. throw on a vintage 3050s motor powered by a fusion reactor and you may as well forget the spinup time.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

RAC's+FW maps= the attackers get executed by RAC-equipped firing squad (the defenders) every match as they funnel in.

Seriously, I would love to see RAC's in game...but man, they are by definition built to hose down an enemy with limited maneuvering options...when you think of it in FW (with the gates and all the choke-points), I don't know how you can put it in without making the jam chance or heat so high as to make it a non-viable weapon.

[Tarogato]

Living Legend's implementation seemed just fine to me. How I might adapt it:


Holding the button engages the RAC/5. It takes 2.00 seconds to fully wind up a RAC/5 before it will begin firing, and it will also unwind from full charge back to zero in 2.00 seconds when released. This is represented on the weapon's status by a green charging bar, similar to how gauss appears.

When the green bar is full, the RAC/5 will begin to fire. Firing over time, the bar will fill up red (similar to how flamers work). If you fill the bar completely red, there is a very high jam chance for every subsequent projectile fired. (I'd say 80%). Once jammed, the weapon will unwind and not be able to fire again until the red bar completely dissipates, which should be longer than it takes for a UAC/5 to clear.


RAC/5 fires one projectile every 0.30 seconds. (more than twice the rate of an AC2)

Each projectile deals 1.00 damage.

This equates to 3.3 DPS, which is nearly identical to the theoretical average DPS of a UAC/5 accounting for jams.


Completely optional original idea: The RAC/5 always fires 5 projectile bursts (for a total of 5 damage over 1.5 seconds). So if you wind up a RAC/5 and engage it and *immediately* release it, it will still fire all 5 rounds for a total of 5 damage before beginning to wind down. As long as the weapon is ready to fire (fully wound up) and you are pressing it's button, it will engage a 5 round burst.



Balancing variables include:

- firing rate (suggested 0.30s)
- wind-up time (suggested 2.00s)
- heat-up time (how much each round increases the red bar)
- cool-down time (how quickly the red bar dissipates over time)
- wind-down time (should be identical to wind-up time)
- jam chance (suggested 80% or greater)
- jam time (suggested 7.0s or greater)

Edited by Tarogato, 27 February 2017 - 04:47 PM.

[Xmith]

RACs were pretty much banned on most MW4 Mercs MeKTek servers. Not sure if it is an indication of them being OP or not. I did witness a MadCat shredding every mech in sight once. I can't remember ever seeing them again after that.

Edited by Xmith, 27 February 2017 - 06:14 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 27 February 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

Living Legend's implementation seemed just fine to me. How I might adapt it:


Holding the button engages the RAC/5. It takes 2.00 seconds to fully wind up a RAC/5 before it will begin firing, and it will also unwind from full charge back to zero in 2.00 seconds when released. This is represented on the weapon's status by a green charging bar, similar to how gauss appears.

When the green bar is full, the RAC/5 will begin to fire. Firing over time, the bar will fill up red (similar to how flamers work). If you fill the bar completely red, there is a very high jam chance for every subsequent projectile fired. (I'd say 80%). Once jammed, the weapon will unwind and not be able to fire again until the red bar completely dissipates, which should be longer than it takes for a UAC/5 to clear.


RAC/5 fires one projectile every 0.30 seconds. (more than twice the rate of an AC2)

Each projectile deals 1.00 damage.

This equates to 3.3 DPS, which is nearly identical to the theoretical average DPS of a UAC/5 accounting for jams.


Completely optional original idea: The RAC/5 always fires 5 projectile bursts (for a total of 5 damage over 1.5 seconds). So if you wind up a RAC/5 and engage it and *immediately* release it, it will still fire all 5 rounds for a total of 5 damage before beginning to wind down. As long as the weapon is ready to fire (fully wound up) and you are pressing it's button, it will engage a 5 round burst.



Balancing variables include:

- firing rate (suggested 0.30s)
- wind-up time (suggested 2.00s)
- heat-up time (how much each round increases the red bar)
- cool-down time (how quickly the red bar dissipates over time)
- wind-down time (should be identical to wind-up time)
- jam chance (suggested 80% or greater)
- jam time (suggested 7.0s or greater)

again, totally against wind up time. Removes snap shots from a cqb weapon

[Mister Blastman]

I'll have some rotary ACs please.

[MacClearly]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

Confession... I love love love RACs, in TT and MW4.....
but looking at our pinpoint targeting..... I worry that the bullet firehose could either be OP as heck, in which case you know they will slap a ridiculous Jam Chance to it.... which would then make them all but useless.

I'm thinking this may be one instance that taking the MGs CoF approach might be for the best. A CoF that starts very small and tight, but the longer the burst, the wider the dispersal gets. I know there are some who have epileptic seizures at the mere mention of CoF... but tbh, after balancing allt he other factors I can personally think of... it seems like the best compromise to keep them vicious, but not OP.

How the actual jamming mechanic was factored, would of course also matter.... and truth to tell, I want SOME RNG left in it, to keep people from just gaming the things, the way they easily could with a "Jam Bar". (The only reason people truly want those is because of how easy they are to game, making UACs and RACs a 100% upgrade over std ACs)

I wouldn't be against a Jam Bar in and of itself... but only if it had some RNG built in, where one only had an approximate idea of when it would jam... and where it actualyl had a +/- % of slop in it that means sometimes you do hit it before you think you should... but other times you get more than you thought you could.

That said, I also admit...I have tussled with all the ideas I could think of... is not the same as having actually compared ALL possible ideas. So please, let's here your ideas, too.

Recoil or climb mechanic? I personally would like something I could manage in bursts than anything random.

[TheMadTypist]

Revis Volek, on 27 February 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

I think the gun needs a CoF as well as its own HEAT BAR to cut down on what you can do.

Just make it a gauge that builds up and goes down like a cooldown bar but have this instead of a normal cooldown for this weapon. Jam chance should be left to the UAC's IMO.


If you use the bullet firehose it heats up and you must allow it to cool down but make it independent of mech and engine heat. Not lore i know but BAH!

If we could code it to have laser and PPC direct hits heat it up from external sources that would just be awesome as well. but yea, thats asking alot me thinks.

I like this, using the UI's existing cooldown bar but building it up, but you know people are going to learn the cooldown rate and macro for an advantage.

I would suggest modifying it such that

1. The first 'shot' you fire fills 1/4thish of the bar, where such a space would be equal to the cooldown of a normal AC of that rating. Once the firing button is released, you cannot fire the weapon again until the cooldown is fully emptied, regardless of how much or little you built.

2. If you hold down the firing button, shots keep coming rapidly, and the cooldown climbs accordingly, such that it becomes a burst fire weapon where you dump a load of damage, but with a max of like 4-5x the cooldown of the standard weapon if you unload fully. Firing anything more than one 'shot' should have a lower dps efficiency than a standard AC to offset the dramatic burst potential.

3. The 'shots' themselves are broken into bursts akin to CUAC's, so one button press = 2 shells on a RAC5 at 2.5 damage each with the base cooldown of an AC5, with maximum cooldown kicking in after 10-12 shells (and cutting you off from firing it) - makes it feel more like a bullet hose.

4. I like the idea of these weapons having COF, but perhaps making it a scaling level such that the first 'shot' is pinpoint and the further down the cooldown bar you move, the greater the inaccuracy becomes. Things like climb can be gamed and marco'd.

5. The space between 'shots' while held down decreases as the cooldown builds, such that the rate of fire increases the further you go down the bar. The defending 'mech gets a bit of warning that a big hurt is coming, and the attacker has a harder time cutting off efficiently if the defender breaks contact- meaning a potential for a longer period of vulnerability that the defender can exploit.

Edited by TheMadTypist, 27 February 2017 - 06:58 PM.

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

again, totally against wind up time. Removes snap shots from a cqb weapon

Then equip a UAC/5 instead. It even costs one ton less, and if you're having a lucky day, you'll get a lot more DPS out of it. But that seems backward to me.

For CQC, why wouldn't you want to equip the weapon that has the gauranteed DPS sans RNG, like my version of the RAC/5 adapted from MWLL? Who cares about the wind up time, you're in close quarters, you're going to be firing it constantly, as much as it will let you. What this RAC/5 would *not* be good at is pokey play and snapshotting, which is what you do at mid-to-long range.

Edited by Tarogato, 27 February 2017 - 07:13 PM.