Jump to content

Do People Still Consider Clan Laser Vomit Too Powerful?


49 replies to this topic

Poll: Laser damage reduction (68 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think about Clan laser damage reduction? (As of 2017-09-30)

  1. Approve (3 votes [23.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

  2. Dissapprove (7 votes [53.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.85%

  3. Unsure (3 votes [23.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

Do you think Clan laser vomit is too powerful? (As of 2017-09-30)

  1. Yes (3 votes [23.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

  2. No (7 votes [53.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.85%

  3. Unsure (3 votes [23.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

Select the following laser(s) that you want damage reduction on. (As of 2017-09-30)

  1. C-Heavy Large Laser (2 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  2. C-Heavy Medium Laser (3 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  3. C-Heavy Small Laser (2 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  4. C- ER Large Laser (2 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  5. None (9 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:28 AM

I'm asking this question because there's still a fairly straightforward fix. Believe it or not; some Clan lasers aren't originally supposed to be dealing the amount of damage that they do now. If PGI wanted too; they could literally reduce the damage by 1 for the following lasers, and MWO would be slightly more close to the lore abiding spectrum.

That's pretty much the whole story. I just thought you should know since people have been complaining about laser vomit in the past. But they seemed to have forgotten about this important detail. Personally, I don't have strong feelings either way. This just seems like a remarkably good solution.

EDIT: please note that not every laser will be included in the poll. There will only be lasers that deal more than table-top damage. Though sometimes, pulse lasers will be exempt from this rule.

Here is a list of questions for you to consider when voting and commenting on laser vomit...

- Does it cause too much damage all at once?

- Is too powerful when comparing to other playstyles?

- Are there too few ways towards countering laser vomit?

- Are there tactical situations where it is considered to be too advantageous?



Poll Voting Archive of 2017/03/19:

Spoiler

Edited by Livaria, 30 September 2017 - 11:11 PM.


#2 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:23 AM

I'm still interested to get opinions on this. Just letting you know.

Edited by Livaria, 20 March 2017 - 10:29 AM.


#3 Captain Grayson Lighthorse

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 54 posts

Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:25 PM

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! Look folks, the clans have SUPERIOR weapons, PERIOD. I keep seeing all of this "balancing" stuff going on and it does nothing but take a good weapon and make it junk. Some weapons are superior to others; some Mechs are superior to others; double heat sinks are suppose to be 2x better than single heat sinks.

In the BattleTech/MechWarrior universe the Clan PPC does 15 damage and generates 15 heat! I think that heat penalty is more than sufficient to curb its use. And the Gauss Rifle... OMG! Can you do any more to wreck the benefits of this wonderful weapon than this ridiculous "charge mechanism" that has been forced upon us? And now with this last patch (3/21/2017) we are getting yet another reduction in weapons damage capability... the missile spread is INCREASING, targeting computer effectiveness is being reduced, and our already crippled PPCs and Gauss Rifles are getting crit damage taken away! REALLY! WHY!? I haven't seen any evidence in the game play that says this is necessary!

We don't want a game of totally "normalized" weapons or Mechs. The Battletech/ Mechwarrior universe has most of this figured out already. Just use it as is please.

If the end goal is to make longer matches where Mechs stay in the fight longer... how about trying this...?

Increase the armor protection across all Mechs (except lights. They're already at this point) to be in line with the VIP Mech... Especially the heavies and assaults. It takes a massive amount of firepower to take down the VIP Mech. An Atlas (or any 100 ton assault Mech) should be this tough to take down. The light Mechs are already "buffed" to this level; it takes a massive amount of firepower to take one of them down. Why not do it with the mediums though assaults also?

In doing this many problem things could be just plain removed from the game:

1> Get rid of ghost heat totally. Every weapon would need to (and have to) work at maximum capacity/damage to be effective in the game.

2> Let the double heat sinks dissipate double heat like they were designed to do.

3> Get rid of the stupid Gauss Rifle charge mechanic. OMG this is just horrible!

4> Light Mechs would no longer be such a terror on the battlefield like they are now as they would not be able to just troll around looking for a lone heavy or assault to make a "pew-pew-pew" easy kill out of in seconds like they do now.

5> This simple change would greatly increase the length of game matches and it would allow the players that like to build and run brawling Mechs to actually have some fun in the game as they would be able to have a tough enough Mech to engage and fight the enemy instead of just dieing in a few short seconds from long range weapons.

6> With the new Civil War Pack coming out much of this IS vs Clan "normalization" will take place naturally with no need to ruin a weapons capabilities.

7> Make the match making engine set IS vs Clans and have 3 IS lances fight 2 Clan stars. This is the way the Clans want it anyway. The "balance" will already be built in with the two more IS Mechs in the fight.

8> This would also give slow moving Mechs (i.e. Dire Wolf, Urbanmech, Annihilator, etc...) a chance to get to cover before getting destroyed in seconds by LRMs or long range weapons before they can even get into battle.

9> This change would also allow Assault Mechs to act like - gee, I don't know - ASSAULT MECHS. They would be able to wade into other Mechs and have a good, fun, long, fight like they are supposed to do.

Let the superior weapons be superior. Just alter simple things like the amount of armor on the Mechs and let the superior weapons be used as they were designed please.

Thanks,

#4 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 17 April 2017 - 03:23 AM

View PostCaptain Grayson Lighthorse, on 21 March 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! Look folks, the clans have SUPERIOR weapons, PERIOD. I keep seeing all of this "balancing" stuff going on and it does nothing but take a good weapon and make it junk. Some weapons are superior to others; some Mechs are superior to others; double heat sinks are suppose to be 2x better than single heat sinks.

In the BattleTech/MechWarrior universe the Clan PPC does 15 damage and generates 15 heat! I think that heat penalty is more than sufficient to curb its use. And the Gauss Rifle... OMG! Can you do any more to wreck the benefits of this wonderful weapon than this ridiculous "charge mechanism" that has been forced upon us? And now with this last patch (3/21/2017) we are getting yet another reduction in weapons damage capability... the missile spread is INCREASING, targeting computer effectiveness is being reduced, and our already crippled PPCs and Gauss Rifles are getting crit damage taken away! REALLY! WHY!? I haven't seen any evidence in the game play that says this is necessary!

We don't want a game of totally "normalized" weapons or Mechs. The Battletech/ Mechwarrior universe has most of this figured out already. Just use it as is please.

If the end goal is to make longer matches where Mechs stay in the fight longer... how about trying this...?

Increase the armor protection across all Mechs (except lights. They're already at this point) to be in line with the VIP Mech... Especially the heavies and assaults. It takes a massive amount of firepower to take down the VIP Mech. An Atlas (or any 100 ton assault Mech) should be this tough to take down. The light Mechs are already "buffed" to this level; it takes a massive amount of firepower to take one of them down. Why not do it with the mediums though assaults also?

In doing this many problem things could be just plain removed from the game:

1> Get rid of ghost heat totally. Every weapon would need to (and have to) work at maximum capacity/damage to be effective in the game.

2> Let the double heat sinks dissipate double heat like they were designed to do.

3> Get rid of the stupid Gauss Rifle charge mechanic. OMG this is just horrible!

4> Light Mechs would no longer be such a terror on the battlefield like they are now as they would not be able to just troll around looking for a lone heavy or assault to make a "pew-pew-pew" easy kill out of in seconds like they do now.

5> This simple change would greatly increase the length of game matches and it would allow the players that like to build and run brawling Mechs to actually have some fun in the game as they would be able to have a tough enough Mech to engage and fight the enemy instead of just dieing in a few short seconds from long range weapons.

6> With the new Civil War Pack coming out much of this IS vs Clan "normalization" will take place naturally with no need to ruin a weapons capabilities.

7> Make the match making engine set IS vs Clans and have 3 IS lances fight 2 Clan stars. This is the way the Clans want it anyway. The "balance" will already be built in with the two more IS Mechs in the fight.

8> This would also give slow moving Mechs (i.e. Dire Wolf, Urbanmech, Annihilator, etc...) a chance to get to cover before getting destroyed in seconds by LRMs or long range weapons before they can even get into battle.

9> This change would also allow Assault Mechs to act like - gee, I don't know - ASSAULT MECHS. They would be able to wade into other Mechs and have a good, fun, long, fight like they are supposed to do.

Let the superior weapons be superior. Just alter simple things like the amount of armor on the Mechs and let the superior weapons be used as they were designed please.

Thanks,


I'm bored from reading this already. Thanks for trying to deliver some kind of useful information, but I'd rather have a much more straightforward response.

Yes, Clans have superior weapons, and they will stay superior, just less damage. Believe it or not, my solution is closer to the real clan damage values. This is literally the amount of damage that they were originally supposed to do.

Edited by Livaria, 17 April 2017 - 04:42 AM.


#5 Kmieciu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 3,437 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 17 April 2017 - 04:24 AM

The old "clans are supposed to be superior" argument.
Brings a tear to this old man's eye.

#6 Jep Jorgensson

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Grizzly
  • The Grizzly
  • 553 posts
  • LocationWest Chicago, IL

Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:19 AM

What Clan laser vomit? That is the IS' thing, not the Clans.

#7 Roughneck45

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Handsome Devil
  • The Handsome Devil
  • 4,452 posts
  • LocationOutreach

Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:42 AM

No. They are in a pretty good spot now IMO. Still deadly, but wayyyy hotter than they were when it was a problem.

If there was a damage reduction they would need to reduce burn times and heat, which would make them too similar to IS lasers.

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 April 2017 - 09:44 AM.


#8 Koniving

    Welcoming Committee

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Guide
  • The Guide
  • 23,384 posts

Posted 17 April 2017 - 10:10 AM

I voted "I want it"

With a caveat.

Large Lasers on both sides, of all denominations... have been incessently buffed... buffed.. rebuffed... and buffed again...
And we're surprised when we see the results?
We're surprised when the calls to nerf them result in ghost heat at limited quantities of 2 and 3?

Medium lasers are fine. In general a small blanket range nerf of Clan weapons to 1.5x rang= 0 instead of 2x = 0 is sufficient. If I'm not mistaken I believe this has already been done. There's also the extra heat medium lasers get. (1 unit higher than stock)

Large lasers give a lot more umph than they are intended to. Lots of extra damage, lots of extra cool heat. If large lasers need a buff then I've got a pretty simple one INSTEAD of bonus damage and reduced heat: Shorter beam times. Lets face it. It's a Large Laser. Back in the 1980s it was called a "Heavy Laser", there's old rulebooks referring to them as Heavy Lasers and in 1986's BattleTechnology they couldn't decide if they were Heavy or Large so the reference kept bouncing back and forth before finally deciding they are "Large Lasers." (and that Light Lasers are Small Lasers). The point? These things have greater range, greater power, and should deliver their full potential quicker. Not extra potential. Not extra cold. Just faster. Modify the cooldown time to make sure it still has to wait 4-ish seconds base, but shorten the beam times instead.

That means IS LL would do 8 damage, LPL would do 9. Clan ER LL and LPL would do 10. instead of this nonsense with 11 and 13 damage for IS and Clan LPL respectively, and 9 and 11 damage for IS and Clan ERLL/LL respectively. Instead of doing that damage in 1 to to 1.5 seconds for LL/ERLL and 0.67 to 1.12 for LPL, it might do the damage in 0.8 to 1.25 for the LL/ERLL and 0.4 to 0.8 for the LPL.

Rough numbers mind you. But stock damage instead of this ******** enhanced damage. Buffs through faster damage delivery over the significantly lighter medium lasers, after all there's a lot more tonnage behind these things.

#9 SockSlayer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 217 posts

Posted 17 April 2017 - 11:56 AM

My experience has been on maps like polar highlands that clans have an insane advantage, but this advantage tends to vanish at river city where you can get cover. I have played both sides and have half clan and half IS, CLANs are still superior and they are supposed to be, although the weapons that are coming to the game are supposed to even the odds.

Edited by Independence MK2, 17 April 2017 - 11:57 AM.


#10 B0oN

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,870 posts

Posted 17 April 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostIndependence MK2, on 17 April 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

My experience has been on maps like polar highlands that clans have an insane advantage, but this advantage tends to vanish at river city where you can get cover. I have played both sides and have half clan and half IS, CLANs are still superior and they are supposed to be, although the weapons that are coming to the game are supposed to even the odds.


Then you clearly have missed seeing the spectacle of a properly loaded IS team on a map like Polar Highlands .

All glory to Battlemaster ,Grasshopper and BlackJack !

#11 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 17 April 2017 - 06:19 PM

View PostKoniving, on 17 April 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I voted "I want it"

With a caveat.

Large Lasers on both sides, of all denominations... have been incessently buffed... buffed.. rebuffed... and buffed again...
And we're surprised when we see the results?
We're surprised when the calls to nerf them result in ghost heat at limited quantities of 2 and 3?

Medium lasers are fine. In general a small blanket range nerf of Clan weapons to 1.5x rang= 0 instead of 2x = 0 is sufficient. If I'm not mistaken I believe this has already been done. There's also the extra heat medium lasers get. (1 unit higher than stock)

Large lasers give a lot more umph than they are intended to. Lots of extra damage, lots of extra cool heat. If large lasers need a buff then I've got a pretty simple one INSTEAD of bonus damage and reduced heat: Shorter beam times. Lets face it. It's a Large Laser. Back in the 1980s it was called a "Heavy Laser", there's old rulebooks referring to them as Heavy Lasers and in 1986's BattleTechnology they couldn't decide if they were Heavy or Large so the reference kept bouncing back and forth before finally deciding they are "Large Lasers." (and that Light Lasers are Small Lasers). The point? These things have greater range, greater power, and should deliver their full potential quicker. Not extra potential. Not extra cold. Just faster. Modify the cooldown time to make sure it still has to wait 4-ish seconds base, but shorten the beam times instead.

That means IS LL would do 8 damage, LPL would do 9. Clan ER LL and LPL would do 10. instead of this nonsense with 11 and 13 damage for IS and Clan LPL respectively, and 9 and 11 damage for IS and Clan ERLL/LL respectively. Instead of doing that damage in 1 to to 1.5 seconds for LL/ERLL and 0.67 to 1.12 for LPL, it might do the damage in 0.8 to 1.25 for the LL/ERLL and 0.4 to 0.8 for the LPL.

Rough numbers mind you. But stock damage instead of this ******** enhanced damage. Buffs through faster damage delivery over the significantly lighter medium lasers, after all there's a lot more tonnage behind these things.


Sounds fine by me, I want to remind people that any combination of the mentioned lasers can be used. You can leave some of these lasers out of the decision if you think that they are in a good place, balance wise.

#12 Perq

    Member

  • Pip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 12 posts

Posted 18 April 2017 - 03:36 AM

View PostCaptain Grayson Lighthorse, on 21 March 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! Look folks, the clans have SUPERIOR weapons, PERIOD. I keep seeing all of this "balancing" stuff going on and it does nothing but take a good weapon and make it junk. Some weapons are superior to others; some Mechs are superior to others; double heat sinks are suppose to be 2x better than single heat sinks.

And why would anyone ever want to play inferior version of anything? If so, why even have those in the game?

#13 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 18 April 2017 - 04:10 AM

Considering the tics per second the ER Lasers are equal - with less heat vs less weight so i would call it even.
The other laser types however....
Its impossible to compare them - 4 ERMLAS are a decent weapon option for a clan mech - where as 4 MLAS are a okayish secondary armament for a IS mech

Indeed 3 Large Laser allow a similar play style as 4 ERMLAS - and with the comming 3060 tech (is ER Laser stuff would be even worse)

However the real problem why we can't have a good solution - are quirks.
You can't have a good balancing solution when the same weapon combination on Mech X behave completely on Mech Y. Bullcrap as its finest

#14 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 18 April 2017 - 08:05 PM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 18 April 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

Considering the tics per second the ER Lasers are equal - with less heat vs less weight so i would call it even.
The other laser types however....
Its impossible to compare them - 4 ERMLAS are a decent weapon option for a clan mech - where as 4 MLAS are a okayish secondary armament for a IS mech

Indeed 3 Large Laser allow a similar play style as 4 ERMLAS - and with the comming 3060 tech (is ER Laser stuff would be even worse)

However the real problem why we can't have a good solution - are quirks.
You can't have a good balancing solution when the same weapon combination on Mech X behave completely on Mech Y. Bullcrap as its finest

Most of what you say is technically valid. It does make it slightly more difficult to give proper player analysis towards the strength of a weapon. But I just happen to not care all that much. This is just because I think quirks do more good than harm.

You also seem to forget that weapons aren't balanced around quirks. Mechs are balanced around quirks. There has been several public test sessions that feature quirkless mechs. So that weapon balance is less affected by this sort of thing. There is also no such thing as a laser damage quirk, so our ability to gauge the damage potential of lasers, is mostly straightforward.

The question is; is it too effective without quirks?

Edited by Livaria, 18 April 2017 - 08:31 PM.


#15 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:02 PM

The quirks beam duration is indirect reaponsible for damage

The CERL is one of the most accurate weapons meaning for every shot some damage will hit a target
But in total only 4.## of 13 total will deal damage for every shot. This is of course only the average of ~55 people and of course it doesn't differ between patches changes or quirks

Quirks that have infirect impact- range, velocity, beam duration

However as reminder stuff that is really broken are the shorter beams plus shorter cooldowns for smaller weapons.
Should be the other direction at least for beam duration.

#16 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:16 PM

That seems to be more of a symptom of over-quirking weapons rather than just having quirks themselves. If quirks operate on a much smaller scale. Such as 7.5-15% I don't think there would be as much of a problem; so much as to make a weapon indistinguishable from another.

I believe that only a few handful mechs should have quirks that are around 20%. While we may have reduced quirks substantially on some mechs; a lot of other mechs still end up with weapons that are more powerful than they should be.

People often underestimate the value of a mech, and as a result, mechs' receive quirks porpotionally to their mech perception, instead of mech performance. In addition, this topic isn't really meant to be about lasers with a short cooldown. Such as Small or Small Pulse Lasers, the maximum damage is probably reasonable for those types of lasers.

Edited by Livaria, 18 April 2017 - 10:00 PM.


#17 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 11 May 2017 - 12:47 PM

I'm going to bring this topic back up again. Since I think it's going to be especially important during Tukayyid faction play. I'm also going to mention that I updated the poll with a second option.

Edited by Livaria, 12 May 2017 - 05:59 PM.


#18 Mechwarrior4670152

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 411 posts

Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:51 PM

Bad poll is bad.

You cannot vote against nerfing... without also voting TO nerf something.

And this is coming from someone who wants to nerf EVERYTHING

Better Posted Image

Edited by Wence the Wanderer, 22 May 2017 - 08:31 AM.


#19 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 12 May 2017 - 05:00 PM

View PostWence the Wanderer, on 12 May 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Bad poll is bad.

You cannot vote against nerfing... without also voting TO nerf something.

And this is coming from someone who wants to nerf EVERYTHING


Ah, a technical issue. Apologies, I'll get on it right away. I've added a no nerf option to the second part. Thanks for pointing that out.

EDIT: I later discovered that the multiple choice wasn't working as well. That's also fixed. I should probably test these things out more often to see if they work properly.

Edited by Livaria, 12 May 2017 - 07:28 PM.


#20 Livaria

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • 405 posts

Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:42 AM

I see we have a few people inclined towards disagreeing. I'd be interested to read more thoughts on this.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users