28 replies to this topic

[Jingseng]

Seriously. There are a LOT of "What is the best X" threads going around lately.

And while yes, that is natural for a place called "new player help".

But one would hope that after 25 matches (and substantially before then, even) new players would realize the futility of such a question, simply due to the sheer number of different characteristics each mech would have. If there were a clear "best", why isn't EVERYONE piloting it? Why isn't that the ONLY mech you see?

It's like asking what the best vacation spot is, what the best sport is, what the best painting style is, what the best color is. Totally meaningless questions because the answer depends a LOT on individual circumstances.

So much so that even when there is fairly widespread consensus on an actual 'best' for a given purpose, it isn't actually a 'best' and differences of opinion (and circumstance) are still pretty valid (eg: scouting mode mechs)

Lastly, I think the last set of trial mechs, which were largely 'meta' builds (what competitive players would generally regard as 'best') showed that 'best' generally isn't when it comes to new players. To say they were poorly received by new players would be an understatement.

So to everyone looking for the 'best' something: Don't. Get some experience. Experiment with a wide variety of mechs. There are no short cuts for this that don't involve regrets and wastage.

[Koniving]

I agree entirely. Post of the year. In not-so-many words (or at least not so directly)) I've been preaching this to the choir since 2012.

Spoiler

The best mech is the Hunchback.
Versatile.
Reliable.
Affordable.
Fast enough.
Tougher than many heavier than it.

Within its drum rests the gateway to every other mech of every class.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Urban'mech.

Nothing, literally nothing you can do in MWO feels more rewarding then killing someone with an urban''mech.

[InspectorG]

Jingseng, on 25 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

Lastly, I think the last set of trial mechs, which were largely 'meta' builds (what competitive players would generally regard as 'best') showed that 'best' generally isn't when it comes to new players. To say they were poorly received by new players would be an understatement.

So to everyone looking for the 'best' something: Don't. Get some experience. Experiment with a wide variety of mechs. There are no short cuts for this that don't involve regrets and wastage.

I agree, largely.

At first, play for fun BUT, realize MWO has a very steep learning curve.

Saying Meta trials are bad because new players dont have the requisite skill/understanding to use said meta is disingenuous.

There is no 'BEST'. There is optimization and efficiency in regards to winning within varying contexts.

But regardless if a Comp player or a newb, a mech with nice hitboxes, agility, size, choice hardpoints will offer better choices than mechs that are deficient in many of the mentioned criteria.

That is pretty much fact, if you play to win.

[Koniving]

To further what Inspector G is saying, meta exists for a reason. Meta for this game goes for the quickest, most efficient kills. The problem is for the nature of the game -- and I say this while being disgusted at how few choices that do exist -- there are so many circumstances providing so many choices in exactly what can bring the quickest and most efficient kills in a given situation that there actually is not a clear cut end-all-be-all. In fact, there's a lot of choices out there despite how I begrudge meta for being so limited.

The thing is, to further what Jingseng said.. those meta options are so limited in their viability outside of the specific situations and playstyles that they were designed for that if you can't find or get yourself into those situations, you will never see good use out of them. While some are made to be money makers in quickplay, over 80% of them were made to be able to fill niche roles in team play and were made with the idea that they would support each other. In fact, some of the lower tiers of meta mechs are only in the lower tiers because they rely on teamwork to function well. Without it, they will fail and will fail horribly.

Even tier 1 metamech builds and mechs themselves have weaknesses to be exploited. Chief among them is that their builds are public and anyone that would go against them know exactly what to do to stop them.

When you first start, however, nobody really even knows what a metamech is unless they looked it up. As such, rather than resorting to set expected ways to deal with the metamech they may come up with something entirely new that will work since none of the known ways to counter meta counters will anticipate it... and eventually a new metamech will be born of it. What I'm saying is for new players... a metamech is just another mech. A really expensive, really niche mech. You don't have to worry about them unless you're getting into faction or group play or until you hit tier 3 (where people actually know how to use them and teamwork).

Until then, have fun and learn as you go. Don't let some bible of how to play dictate what you do and how you do it.

Spoiler

After all, a huge chunk of the zealots mindlessly using metamechs still don't know that you have Two Crosshairs and can control them independently, or that you can make LRMs turn corners. That's stuff you gotta learn on your own 'cause there isn't anyone giving out guides on the cool stuff -- after all it would ruin their edge while you play using their metamech builds with their intended weaknesses so that they can stay on top.

Lets be honest. How many can say that they know how to LRM two different targets in two different locations simultaneously?

Edited by Koniving, 25 March 2017 - 11:50 AM.

[Koniving]

On a more personal note:

Spoiler

Toha Heavy Industries, on 25 March 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

Urban'mech.

Nothing, literally nothing you can do in MWO feels more rewarding then killing someone with an urban''mech.

That's true.
But...
That is FAR more satisfying to do in Battletech / Megamek. Especially when hull down buried into the ground, hiding inside a bunker (and firing out or literally doing the 'Kool Aid Man' through the wall at 32kph), or while riding on the trailer of a transport truck (for that speed boost!)

Speaking of which I'm trying to get a megamek campaign together. Well, I have the campaign. I need players. Available on the weekends. Interested? Once you cause civilian cars to swerve and crash because you are crossing a street of active traffic in a battlemech or security mech... it's hard to go back.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jingseng, on 25 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

It's like asking what the best vacation spot is...

The Arctic (because people are boring, bears are awesome and penguins are evil!)

Jingseng, on 25 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

... what the best sport is...

Rugby

Jingseng, on 25 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

... what the best painting style is...

That one with a brush

Jingseng, on 25 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

... what the best color is.

Blue

...

Also, Thor.

[Jingseng]

What I implied, but failed to mention explicitly (because I was sleepy and also in a match, lol), is this:

There is no God mech, no Ultra Mech that will overcome a lack of skill.

You can be in the 'best' mech, but if you suck, you will die, die horribly, and die quickly.

The 'best' cars are manual transmission - but if you don't know how to drive stick, you aren't going anywhere in them. And with dog cut gears and no synchro, you probably aren't even going to learn much about driving or racing in them either.

To find the right mech for you, you need to develop as a pilot first.

InspectorG, on 25 March 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

Saying Meta trials are bad because new players dont have the requisite skill/understanding to use said meta is disingenuous.

saying something I didn't say is more disingenuous. I did not say meta trials are bad. I said meta trials are bad FOR NEW PLAYERS because they do not have the requisite skill. More specifically, meta trials are NOT META FOR NEW PLAYERS because they do not have the requisite skill.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Just to add, even the best have their bad days. Had two matches earlier today, one guy in a Hunchback IIC loaded up with LRMs, survived the first game with upwards of 500 damage. The next? Died in the first minute without landing a single hit. Was the mech bad? Doubtful. Was the pilot bad? Doubtful. Did it help? Nope

[Gibson Ibanez]

Even if you use what is considered the "best" mech in the game you will probably end up frustrated as a new player because the mega meta build bestest beastie will most likely be focused on and down ASAP. Thus leaving you no time to become a better pilot and leading to playing assault mechs from a distance like they are ecm Raven 3L with erlls and not contributing to the front lines because of fear.

Edit: That is the right way to play the Raven 3L erll build is from a distance. Nothing against them at all. My comment was directed to assault pilots that stay WAAAAY back behind the lines away from the fighting while their team gets pushed and rolled.

I have done it and I am ashamed and will never do it again.

Edited by Gibson Ibanez, 26 March 2017 - 05:29 AM.

[InspectorG]

Jingseng, on 25 March 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

saying something I didn't say is more disingenuous. I did not say meta trials are bad. I said meta trials are bad FOR NEW PLAYERS because they do not have the requisite skill. More specifically, meta trials are NOT META FOR NEW PLAYERS because they do not have the requisite skill.

You said before: "[color=#959595]which were largely 'meta' builds (what competitive players would generally regard as 'best') showed that 'best' generally isn't when it comes to new players"[/color]

Trials tend to be pretty generalist for Solo. There is no 'meta' for beginners unless you want to call LRMs 'noob-tubes' and even then, LRMs dont teach base skills.

The Trials are very generic compared to what high level/comp players use for 'META's that RELY on certain factors like maps, tonnage limits, speed strats, objectives, etc.

You are conflating Meta for Solo and Meta for Comp/Group/Scouting/etc.

So, what in your words would be Meta for new players? Because the Trials are largely generalist, decent in regards to heat/engine size/weapons selection per hardpoints/ammo/ armor distribution.

You gonna tell me a beginner needs something other than that?

[Jingseng]

InspectorG, on 26 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

You said before: "[color=#959595]which were largely 'meta' builds (what competitive players would generally regard as 'best') showed that 'best' generally isn't when it comes to new players"[/color]

Yes. What is best for one class of player is not necessarily (and often isn't at all) best for another. The best golf club for a pro is not the best golf club for a newbie. The best car for construction site manager is not the best car for urban commuter is not the best car for a suburban retiree is not the best car for a newly licensed 18 year old is not the best car for an experienced racer.

InspectorG, on 26 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

You said before: "[color=#959595]which were largely 'meta' builds (what competitive players would generally regard as 'best') showed that 'best' generally isn't when it comes to new players"[/color]

Trials tend to be pretty generalist for Solo. There is no 'meta' for beginners unless you want to call LRMs 'noob-tubes' and even then, LRMs dont teach base skills.

You are conflating Meta for Solo and Meta for Comp/Group/Scouting/etc.

And you are conflating "best" with "meta". We aren't discussing meta. We are discussing "best". We are discussing when new players come asking for "the best mech" or "the best mech for x task". I know. Because I started the damn topic. And it's right there in the quote. I'm talking about best. YOU are the one shifting the discussion to appropriateness of meta.

There is no error in what I have said. The last set of trial mechs WERE largely meta-type builds, such as the dual ppc panther. They WERE received very poorly by new players, who criticized build decisions employed in them. Those mechs were no doubt very successful in the hands of skilled players; they were far less so in the hands of new players. What was meta (itself a misapplication of the term), which is what the competitive players would consider 'best', was neither meta nor best in the hands of new players.

InspectorG, on 26 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

So, what in your words would be Meta for new players? Because the Trials are largely generalist, decent in regards to heat/engine size/weapons selection per hardpoints/ammo/ armor distribution.

You gonna tell me a beginner needs something other than that?

The LAST SET OF TRIALS were the ONLY SET OF TRIALS discussed. For a very specific reason. The CURRENT set of trials ARE in fact more generalist PRECISELY BECAUSE THE LAST SET OF TRIALS, THE ONLY SET OF TRIALS I REFERENCED, WERE NOT.

I AM NOT CRITICIZING TRIALS. I AM DISCUSSING THE REQUEST FOR "BEST". I AM NOT DISCUSSING "META" FOR BEGINNERS. QUITE SPECIFICALLY MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING. DID YOU SOMEHOW MISS THAT?

InspectorG, on 26 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

There is no 'meta' for beginners

PRECISELY MY GODDAMN POINT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND COME OFF ALL HIGH AND MIGHTY MISTER INTELLECTUAL CRITICIZING SOMEONE FOR GODS SAKE EXERCISE SOME READING COMPREHENSION. THROW OUT WHAT YOUR MIND IS FIXATING ON AND BE SURE WHAT YOU ARE CRITICIZING IS WHAT WAS SAID, AND NOT MERELY WHAT YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT.

End Communication.

[InspectorG]

Jingseng, on 27 March 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Yes. What is best for one class of player is not necessarily (and often isn't at all) best for another. The best golf club for a pro is not the best golf club for a newbie. The best car for construction site manager is not the best car for urban commuter is not the best car for a suburban retiree is not the best car for a newly licensed 18 year old is not the best car for an experienced racer.



And you are conflating "best" with "meta". We aren't discussing meta. We are discussing "best". We are discussing when new players come asking for "the best mech" or "the best mech for x task". I know. Because I started the damn topic. And it's right there in the quote. I'm talking about best. YOU are the one shifting the discussion to appropriateness of meta.

There is no error in what I have said. The last set of trial mechs WERE largely meta-type builds, such as the dual ppc panther. They WERE received very poorly by new players, who criticized build decisions employed in them. Those mechs were no doubt very successful in the hands of skilled players; they were far less so in the hands of new players. What was meta (itself a misapplication of the term), which is what the competitive players would consider 'best', was neither meta nor best in the hands of new players.



The LAST SET OF TRIALS were the ONLY SET OF TRIALS discussed. For a very specific reason. The CURRENT set of trials ARE in fact more generalist PRECISELY BECAUSE THE LAST SET OF TRIALS, THE ONLY SET OF TRIALS I REFERENCED, WERE NOT.

I AM NOT CRITICIZING TRIALS. I AM DISCUSSING THE REQUEST FOR "BEST". I AM NOT DISCUSSING "META" FOR BEGINNERS. QUITE SPECIFICALLY MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING. DID YOU SOMEHOW MISS THAT?


PRECISELY MY GODDAMN POINT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND COME OFF ALL HIGH AND MIGHTY MISTER INTELLECTUAL CRITICIZING SOMEONE FOR GODS SAKE EXERCISE SOME READING COMPREHENSION. THROW OUT WHAT YOUR MIND IS FIXATING ON AND BE SURE WHAT YOU ARE CRITICIZING IS WHAT WAS SAID, AND NOT MERELY WHAT YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT.

End Communication.

Im sorry, could you please speak up. Im having trouble hearing you.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

All this text just to say this: Kdk3 or NTG -mic drop-

[Alienized]

Boogie138, on 29 March 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

All this text just to say this: Kdk3 or NTG -mic drop-

-pick's up the mic-
a victor.
nothing better than beein questioned because of driving a certain mech, trash talking the hell out of the coward backstanders who can respond nothing better than *watch the score!* after dying last in a 2 LPL maddog (....)
and then seeing how far superior the victor is.
800 dmg the victor brawling the heck out of 4 mechs vs 500 of a backstanding loser.

if you cant beat a victor, dont ever open your mouth again. bow down immediatly and feel sorry for beeing bad.

[Gibson Ibanez]

Alienized, on 29 March 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

-pick's up the mic-
a victor.
nothing better than beein questioned because of driving a certain mech, trash talking the hell out of the coward backstanders who can respond nothing better than *watch the score!* after dying last in a 2 LPL maddog (....)
and then seeing how far superior the victor is.
800 dmg the victor brawling the heck out of 4 mechs vs 500 of a backstanding loser.

if you cant beat a victor, dont ever open your mouth again. bow down immediatly and feel sorry for beeing bad.

I have been seeing a few Victors in matches lately. Fought a Dragon Slayer hero even. Pretty cool.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Alienized, on 29 March 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

-pick's up the mic-
a victor.
nothing better than beein questioned because of driving a certain mech, trash talking the hell out of the coward backstanders who can respond nothing better than *watch the score!* after dying last in a 2 LPL maddog (....)
and then seeing how far superior the victor is.
800 dmg the victor brawling the heck out of 4 mechs vs 500 of a backstanding loser.

if you cant beat a victor, dont ever open your mouth again. bow down immediatly and feel sorry for beeing bad.

Victors are the bane of tier5 solo que. Too stronk, pls nerf

[Alienized]

Boogie138, on 29 March 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Victors are the bane of tier5 solo que. Too stronk, pls nerf

they are also the bane of ze tier1 meta dudes

[R E S P E K]

Alienized, on 29 March 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

they are also the bane of ze tier1 meta dudes

oh yeah? Care to prove it? I know a couple tier 1 types.

[Alienized]

R E S P E K, on 30 March 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

oh yeah? Care to prove it? I know a couple tier 1 types.

so? i am tier 1 myself