59 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Kiran Yagami, on 28 March 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

Why would ERLL ever be hard in solo queue?

Its because you have to be 800-900 meters away with a 10% range quirk mech to actually win trades against an equally competent player in ER PPC/Gauss. Most maps don't allow for that without significant risk of being isolated, or don't allow it at all due to terrain.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

That doesn't mean it can't be useful. Don't get me wrong, there are some differences between the PUG queue and comp (aggressive play is much more viable in comp, lights are less useful, etc) but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in consideration just because it is the minority because the health of the comp scene is a sign a sign of health of the larger population for PvP games. Generally, that is true, not always though (since some games are more casual oriented and thus suffer more player turnover, but those tend to lack depth).

This may be hard to swallow for some folks, but MWO is not even a noticeable blip in the real comp scene.

It also has enough problems attracting new players and retaining existing ones. And I dare say one of the reasons for this is it's lack of depth. Heck, it's a skeleton of what it could be.

First solve the population issue, then look at eSports -- unless of course PGI can come up with solid and highly-successful plan to make eSports the draw for new players. I have serious doubts though about them being able to do the latter, especially because it runs the risk of pissing off a large chunk of existing players who would just leave.

Edited by Mystere, 28 March 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 28 March 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

This may be hard to swallow for some folks, but MWO is not even a noticeable blip in the real comp scene.

It also has enough problems attracting new players and retaining existing ones. And I dare say one of the reasons for this is it's lack of depth. Heck, it's a skeleton of what it could be.

First solve the population issue, then look at eSports -- unless of course PGI can come up with solid and highly-successful plan to make eSports the draw for new players. I have serious doubts though about them being able to do the latter, especially because it runs the risk of pissing off a large chunk of existing players who would just leave.

I mean, SRMs and ER LL are useful enough, as in not completely useless, in the solo queue. You should be able to make them work pretty well in the group queue though, map dependent of course. I doubt SRM/ER LL balance is the reason we don't retain more players. Its actually pretty simple:

1) Grind.
2) Most players who try this game don't love the franchise that much or have never heard of it and just want to try a robot game, which makes 1) more of an inhibitor.

[Weeny Machine]

Kiran Yagami, on 27 March 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Pretty much. PGI hates brawler friendly environments. Just look what they did to frozen city. It's god awful now.

No, it is now Frozen Sh1tty

Edited by Bush Hopper, 28 March 2017 - 08:38 AM.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 March 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

I mean, SRMs and ER LL are useful enough, as in not completely useless, in the solo queue. You should be able to make them work pretty well in the group queue though, map dependent of course. I doubt SRM/ER LL balance is the reason we don't retain more players. Its actually pretty simple:

1) Grind.
2) Most players who try this game don't love the franchise that much or have never heard of it and just want to try a robot game, which makes 1) more of an inhibitor.

Where did I mention SRMs or ERLLs?

I thought my point was clear enough. But, I guess it was not.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 28 March 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

First solve the population issue, then look at eSports

Fixing eSports is easy, fixing the population issue is hard (because there a multiple factors contributing).

Fixing eSports involves just revolves around better private lobby/spectator options and then not shafting balance too hard (since balance is a little less relevant in PUG queue). Making the spectator tool better also helps other contributors like for Heffay and such.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2017 - 08:49 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 28 March 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

Where did I mention SRMs or ERLLs?

I thought my point was clear enough. But, I guess it was not.

Well you posted right in the middle of the SRM/ERLL balance discussion with no other context aside from a vague reference to depth, so, no I guess it wasn't.

[Trev Firestorm]

Mole, on 27 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Kiran, will you stop trying to tell me that SRM4s are now unusable when I have been playing with my Assasins since the patch and they are living off of non-artemis SRM4s and doing a bangup job of it? They are usable. They are very usable. You know why? Because I'm using them. I can run up to just about any enemy 'mech with this: ASN-23 or this: ASN-21 and melt their machine in short order. I know PGI nerfing the spread on SRM4s seems to have blown out the blood vessels in your eyes but trust me, they are still very decent weapons.

Its true, saw you play last night and you did exceptionally well.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Fixing eSports is easy, fixing the population issue is hard (because there a multiple factors contributing).

Fixing eSports involves just revolves around better private lobby/spectator options and then not shafting balance too hard (since balance is a little less relevant in PUG queue). Making the spectator tool better also helps other contributors like for Heffay and such.

I didn't mean "fix" eSports. I meant "completely ignore it" -- unless of course PGI can come up with a solid and highly-successful plan to make eSports the draw for new players. But, I really have my doubts about the latter.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 28 March 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

plan to make eSports the draw for new players.

Bringing in new players would be nice, but so would bringing back old ones. We seem to be bringing in new players as evidenced by the population being relatively stagnant and the fact that I know the comp scene has seen some significant hemorrhaging of players within the recent months. Keeping in mind some of these things necessary to "fix" the comp scene help content creators (again, better spectator tool is nice for people outside of comp).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[Gattsus]

My thread was hijacked!

[Kubernetes]

They're still alright, not as good as before, but they're more dependent on good hardpoint placement. My Shadowhawk 2D2 (AC10, 4SRM4) is fine, as is my Oxide. I think it hurts if you're accustomed to smacking people at 270-297m, but if you're used to the sub-100m brawl I doubt you'll care.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Barely feel the change in SRM4's spread. Then again, never relied on them for pin point accuracy and instead used them for missile shotgun sandblasting and pilot rattling effect. So I guess I was using them as intended instead of exploiting their accidental superior on the curve spread-damage-tonnage-slot ratio. SRM4's still cycle damn fast, have decent cluster, and give you a good DPS boost, will always take them over SRM6's and always over SRM6+A. SRM+A is worthless compared to another SRM4 in my book.

[Gattsus]

Kubernetes, on 28 March 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

They're still alright, not as good as before, but they're more dependent on good hardpoint placement. My Shadowhawk 2D2 (AC10, 4SRM4) is fine, as is my Oxide. I think it hurts if you're accustomed to smacking people at 270-297m, but if you're used to the sub-100m brawl I doubt you'll care.

They feel alright in my 2N but in the arm of my Awesome, my gawd, it's almost like a shotgun...

[R Valentine]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 March 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Its because you have to be 800-900 meters away with a 10% range quirk mech to actually win trades against an equally competent player in ER PPC/Gauss. Most maps don't allow for that without significant risk of being isolated, or don't allow it at all due to terrain.

That's only if you're fighting ppl with ERPPC/Gauss, which if you were playing FP or group queue might be true, but in solo queue everyone is in mixed bags, I'm sure you can find someone who either can't trade effectively or whose loaded for short range and can't trade at all. Long range weapons will always have a place in solo queue because MWO makes fighting at a distance so easy.

Gattsus, on 28 March 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

They feel alright in my 2N but in the arm of my Awesome, my gawd, it's almost like a shotgun...

Clan versions already had a wider spread than IS. Now the vertical spread is so great 1/4 of the missiles hit the targets legs. May as well be SRM2s at that point.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 28 March 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

So I guess I was using them as intended instead of exploiting their accidental superior on the curve spread-damage-tonnage-slot ratio.

lol

Kiran Yagami, on 29 March 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

That's only if you're fighting ppl with ERPPC/Gauss, which if you were playing FP or group queue might be true, but in solo queue everyone is in mixed bags, I'm sure you can find someone who either can't trade effectively or whose loaded for short range and can't trade at all. Long range weapons will always have a place in solo queue because MWO makes fighting at a distance so easy.

There's a difference between long range, and extreme range. Extreme range has issues in solo queue, it might not be as bad as brawling weapons because of maps like Frozen or Polar, but they still aren't ideal like long/mid range is.

[R Valentine]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

lol


There's a difference between long range, and extreme range. Extreme range has issues in solo queue, it might not be as bad as brawling weapons because of maps like Frozen or Polar, but they still aren't ideal like long/mid range is.

Yes, but just because cERLL has extreme range doesn't mean that's the only way to use it. It shoots just fine at 600-800m, and that's well outside of the range of any brawler. It's not the optimal choice, but cERLLs are fairly light, only 4 tons, and you don't have to worry about leading the target. It's still more than usable in solo queue. Sure it sucks donkey balls in anything resembling competitive play, but so do a lot of weapons that you still see often in solo. Solo queue is more about your mech's ability to play on any map with any team comp than it is about how good you are at trading.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiran Yagami, on 29 March 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Yes, but just because cERLL has extreme range doesn't mean that's the only way to use it.

Which is why I said it isn't as bad as brawling.

Kiran Yagami, on 29 March 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

It's not the optimal choice, but cERLLs are fairly light, only 4 tons, and you don't have to worry about leading the target.

You do have lead the target with ERLLs sadly depending on the target due to lag (so you are lag shooting, not necessarily leading). That said, let's not bring up cERLLs.

Kiran Yagami, on 29 March 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Solo queue is more about your mech's ability to play on any map with any team comp than it is about how good you are at trading.

And guess what mech's do that best? Long/mid range designs, whether it be laser vomit, dakka, or PPC/Gauss. ERLLs just don't have the damage output to help you carry which is why they just aren't as good in solo queue. Either way, it isn't about your mech's ability so much as your piloting ability since carrying is a big thing in PUG queue.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 March 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

The spread without Artemis on 4s feels worse than the spread of 6s without Artemis. And it's not like SRM 2s are a viable alternative for the vast majority of mechs...

Sooo, no reason to take anything other than SRM4+A or SRM6+A, unless it is a mech like the loyalty blackjack, where the cluster of hardpoints is tight enough to make the spread less s***. And for a lot of mechs that relied on the SRM 4 (namely lights and mediums) that can't afford to spend weight on Artemis, you'll simply see them fade into further disuse.

RIP Huginn

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 30 March 2017 - 05:56 PM.

[MacClearly]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 27 March 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

It really doesn't matter what PGI does to SRM's ( or LRM's ) their individual performance is not the issue..

The problem right now is the lack of a penalty for stacking. Now some you are going to say "heat spike" but that is a lame arguement. It has does nothing to address the rampant boating we are seeing.

The solution is to make any ammo based weapons stacked past 2 jam. But we won't see this...

Nor would we want to. That is a terrible idea.