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Urbie Should Get "magazine Capacity" Quirk


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#21 Metus regem

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 08:34 AM

View PostSkanderborg, on 31 March 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:


Suppose the thor had a ammo truck following him around at all times in the lore then? Posted Image



It was a duelist mech, one on one it was a power house in TT. During the Invasion era, the Clans had stopped doing long campaigns with long supply lines, instead they focused on small short duration duels to settle things... this means that large ammo stores were not needed for their machines. After Tukayyid, the Clans re-evaluated limited ammo supplies on their mech designs....

#22 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 08:59 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 31 March 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:



It was a duelist mech, one on one it was a power house in TT. During the Invasion era, the Clans had stopped doing long campaigns with long supply lines, instead they focused on small short duration duels to settle things... this means that large ammo stores were not needed for their machines. After Tukayyid, the Clans re-evaluated limited ammo supplies on their mech designs....

well, the smarter clans. tis a reason several still had issues. And seems like many home clans (blood spirits, anyone?) found adapting akin to heresy.

#23 Metus regem

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 09:20 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 March 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

well, the smarter clans. tis a reason several still had issues. And seems like many home clans (blood spirits, anyone?) found adapting akin to heresy.



To them I say, "Adapt or die."

Hell Clan Ghost Bear, the clan known for not taking in new ideas, changed from ammo focused mechs to more energy based mechs after the first wave of the invasion as they were finding their ammo supply lines too taxed to keep up with the demand of a long campaign...

#24 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 09:24 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 31 March 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:



To them I say, "Adapt or die."

Hell Clan Ghost Bear, the clan known for not taking in new ideas, changed from ammo focused mechs to more energy based mechs after the first wave of the invasion as they were finding their ammo supply lines too taxed to keep up with the demand of a long campaign...

Then solved their ammo issues for good by absorbing the FRR...... and moving in.

#25 Metus regem

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 10:17 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 March 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

Then solved their ammo issues for good by absorbing the FRR...... and moving in.



Well they did improve the quality of life for the average FRR citizen... better health care, employment and education... They also rebuilt most of what they knocked down too.... Not to mention they made the FRR something that the Combine would no longer want to sanely attack.

#26 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:25 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 31 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:



Well they did improve the quality of life for the average FRR citizen... better health care, employment and education... They also rebuilt most of what they knocked down too.... Not to mention they made the FRR something that the Combine would no longer want to sanely attack.

I wasn't complaining. I'd say the Ghost Bears, Snow Ravens and Goliath Scorpions all improved the lives of their new "fellows". But they also didn't really give them a lot of choice in the matter.

#27 Templar Dane

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 11:32 AM

I always thought that ammo consuming weapons should get doubled ammo counts per ton compared to tt to go with our doubled armor.

#28 CJ Daxion

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 02:42 PM

Along with Raven 3L and 2X

and all ammo based commando's

HBK 4G could also use it.. that thing is TIGHT! and with so many 100 ton mechs and 12 mans, it really could use some extra shots.

#29 Y E O N N E

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 05:48 PM

View PostCJ Daxion, on 31 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

HBK 4G could also use it.. that thing is TIGHT! and with so many 100 ton mechs and 12 mans, it really could use some extra shots.


LFE should fix the ammo problem with the HBK-4G.

#30 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 06:52 AM

We don't need ammo quirks.

We need more Ammo/Ton.

It hasn't really kept pace with the increasing armor and structure, and as a result builds that should be very viable just aren't. 2t of ammo? It's going to take some pretty good play to get more than a kill or two; over the context of a 12v12 battle you WILL run out of ammo in every battle you don't die early in.

Look at the ammo MWO mechs bring to the table. It's vastly more than anything a Battletech mech would take to a given engagement.

This is particularly relevant in faction play, where you're not just facing 12 mechs but 48.

The upside is, you can increase ammo counts without decreasing TTK.

#31 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 06:56 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 01 April 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

We don't need ammo quirks.

We need more Ammo/Ton.

It hasn't really kept pace with the increasing armor and structure, and as a result builds that should be very viable just aren't. 2t of ammo? It's going to take some pretty good play to get more than a kill or two; over the context of a 12v12 battle you WILL run out of ammo in every battle you don't die early in.

Look at the ammo MWO mechs bring to the table. It's vastly more than anything a Battletech mech would take to a given engagement.

This is particularly relevant in faction play, where you're not just facing 12 mechs but 48.

The upside is, you can increase ammo counts without decreasing TTK.

Or maybe......

What we need it to address the core of the problem... pinpoint convergence, and then maybe be able to start removing these armor quirks, ammo issues, etc?

#32 The Lighthouse

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 07:36 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 April 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Or maybe......

What we need it to address the core of the problem... pinpoint convergence, and then maybe be able to start removing these armor quirks, ammo issues, etc?


The reason why armor quirks exist is clan XL and Inner Sphere XL engine difference. Since PGI refuses to address it, and instead introduce Light Engine which does not really address XL engine difference imbalance, those armor quirks have to stay to address the issue.

You'd better careful with pinpoint convergence though. The balance of this game is as broken as it is, I have little faith that PGI would properly rebalance mechs, judging from their previous attempts such as Energy Draw, Re-scaling, and recently Skill Tree and Engine decoupling.

I really hate myself to tell things like these, but unless Paul and Russ step down as managing this game, it'd better to not touch anything.

#33 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:00 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 April 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Or maybe......

What we need it to address the core of the problem... pinpoint convergence, and then maybe be able to start removing these armor quirks, ammo issues, etc?
You know I'm with you here, but Russ loves instant pinpoint convergence. Despite the fact that it's entirely against Battle tech Canon and directly responsible for ridiculously short TTK that's needed repeated Band-Aids over the years such as doubled armor/structure, then further quirks, etc... All because the system was never designed to support pinpoint alphas. Buuuut....

It doesn't matter, because Russ will never give that up. Not even a little bit, like situational minor CoF.

But increasing ammo/ton is a pretty trivial change in comparison.

#34 CJ Daxion

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 12:34 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 01 April 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

We don't need ammo quirks.

We need more Ammo/Ton.






And then you have those mechs that have plenty of room to hold the right amount of ammo, and all upping ammo amounts would do, would turn those mechs that are good, even better.

Why? well if they can just remove 2 tons of ammo, and add another MPL, or perhaps a couple heat sinks, or JJ's or what ever..


It is far better to increase ammo on a few mechs, than to up ammo to fix a few mechs, and make 100+ mechs even better. That is the wrong way to fix this issue.


the only reason why a few mechs have this problem is because of 12 mans, and 100 tonners every where. The builds on those mechs are legit and balanced to a degree. But where it comes into play are ends of matches.

I also don't want LRM boats, or SRM boats that can pack 500 rounds, or 1400 rounds.. to suddenly have an endless amount of ammo.


Ammo quirk for a few mechs is by far the better way to balance/fix this issue.



View PostWintersdark, on 01 April 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

You know I'm with you here, but Russ loves instant pinpoint convergence.




I'm not sure where russ has ever said this..


But a very simple way to reduce it would be to unlock arms/torso..

People did not like the second which was ED, which i thought worked quite well, but needed a bit more time testing. The big issue here was people got so caught up in the nerfs to weapons, and not ED persay. Yes some alpha warriors hated it, but tons of what was hated was the weapon changes which was nothing to do with ED.

Bring back ED, Unlock arms.. add more levels, aka steeper hills, more up/down shooting, Add under shooting, aka under a bridge or rock formation or soemthing.. so High mounts are not always the best.

Weapons in arms, could be better, or low slug arms on some areas.. that is all about map design, making some mechs better in certain areas than others. But this is kinda off topic.

Edited by CJ Daxion, 01 April 2017 - 12:38 PM.


#35 Pixel Hunter

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

I just feel ballistic weapons like the ac/2 are too heavy in general. just make them lighter but maybe throw in a bit more heat than now...for balance..

#36 Y E O N N E

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 07:46 PM

View PostGimpy117, on 01 April 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

I just feel ballistic weapons like the ac/2 are too heavy in general. just make them lighter but maybe throw in a bit more heat than now...for balance..


There are these things called Light AC/2 and Light AC/5. They are 3068 tech, one year out from PGI's cut-off. Just like HAGs.

#37 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 07:48 PM

View PostCJ Daxion, on 01 April 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

And then you have those mechs that have plenty of room to hold the right amount of ammo, and all upping ammo amounts would do, would turn those mechs that are good, even better.

Why? well if they can just remove 2 tons of ammo, and add another MPL, or perhaps a couple heat sinks, or JJ's or what ever..
That wouldn't help the problem-child, the KDK3. Other mechs gaining autocannon ammo? There are VERY few T1 mechs that would benefit in any way, as autocannons are rarely used in normal play, and even less frequently used in Faction Play.

Yes, the "middle of the road" mechs gain too. We're not talking about doubling ammo/ton here, just increasing it in a manner like how the AC10 gained ammo/t a while back (which, incidentally, helped it a fair bit without breaking anything)

Yes, the problems are because of 12v12, and even worse, v48! Our ammo/t was based on 8v8 play. Then we moved to 12v12 and ammo/t wasn't adjusted. Going to v48 has taken it even further, and it's a problem. It's one of the major reasons why autocannons are rarely used these days - you're better off going with energy, as you'll never run out of ammo.

The weights/sizes of ballistics in TT was based around per-battle effective use with 1-2t ammo/weapon. You'd never have mechs packing 6-8 tons of ammo in TT. It adds a huge tax to ballistics that are already enormous and heavy.

Quote

It is far better to increase ammo on a few mechs, than to up ammo to fix a few mechs, and make 100+ mechs even better. That is the wrong way to fix this issue.
It only makes those mechs better when they're running sub-par builds. That's a good thing.

Quote

the only reason why a few mechs have this problem is because of 12 mans, and 100 tonners every where. The builds on those mechs are legit and balanced to a degree. But where it comes into play are ends of matches.
And 48.

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I also don't want LRM boats, or SRM boats that can pack 500 rounds, or 1400 rounds.. to suddenly have an endless amount of ammo.
Oh, don't be hyperbolic. I'm not talking about doubling ammo/ton. Nobody is getting endless ammo. And if a LRM boat goes from 1440 -> 1600 ammo, it's still a bad build. Likewise, SRM's? If they gained 20 ammo/t, you'd have 500 round SRM mechs (that's FIVE TONS of ammo, btw, a HUGE amount) getting 600 rounds. That's enough to, given optimal play, get one more kill. That extra kill isn't a help 1v1, it just allows you to continue fighting one kill longer.

Quote

I'm not sure where russ has ever said this..
This has come up many times over the years, and Russ has been adamantly against any kind of CoF. He's very much in favour of pinpoint convergence.

Quote

But a very simple way to reduce it would be to unlock arms/torso..

People did not like the second which was ED, which i thought worked quite well, but needed a bit more time testing. The big issue here was people got so caught up in the nerfs to weapons, and not ED persay. Yes some alpha warriors hated it, but tons of what was hated was the weapon changes which was nothing to do with ED.
Buuuuut, ED is dead and gone. It's not coming back.

We used to have unlocked arms and torsos - before arm lock was a thing. While it helps in some cases(and I say this as someone who'd LOVE to see Arm Lock go away completely), it also serves to just shift the problem around convergence wise: Mechs are preferred then when they have sufficient correct hardpoint spread to minimize issues. I'd love to see arm lock go, but it's not going anywhere. PGI added it to help newbies, and has never shown any interest in removing it.

#38 Hit the Deck

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 08:16 PM

Give the Urbie +150% ammo and I'll pilot this:

1x AC/10 + 2x ML UM-R63

I always want to pilot an AC/10 Urbie but the Urbie is 5 tons too light for that.

#39 Valhallan

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 08:18 PM

While ammo/ton is in some cases deficient to TT values, another major reason that ammo weapons are worse is that none of their special ammo types are available at all. Inferno/precision/tandem-charge/caseless(for even MOAR ammo)/armor-piercing/smoke/etc. Some of these like combining smoke (which should also affect Heat vision)+ ecm/stealth armor would significantly affect game play.

#40 Khobai

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 10:30 PM

urbie is supposed to be bad. thats the joke.

if you make the urbie viable with quirks it wouldnt be the urbie anymore.





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