150 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Try to build a KDK-3 with 4 cUAC10 with 8-10 tons of ammo (yep, to have ammo for the whole match) and then compare that to DWF. The point is that KDK-3 is more agile and vialbe with large engine only. On other cases that is a large tall target.

um I have built kodiak-3s thats how I know it makes the direwolf obsolete

its not just more agile. its way faster. has better hitboxes and geometry for mitigating damage. has higher hardpoints. and it can take endosteel which gives it 5 more tons to work with than the direwolf.

trying to argue that the kodiak doesnt make the direwolf obsolete is simply not an argument you can win.

[Templar Dane]

People used to whine about there not being severe penalties with heat, like there is in tabletop. But the thing is, the penalties in tabletop mostly shat all over mechs with ammo. There isn't really anything to worry about if all you have are energy weapons. God forbid you have a mixed loadout though.

[Gas Guzzler]

There are some builds you can do on Dire Wolf that cant be done as well on the KDK due to the massive amount of hardpoints available on the Dire. But... are you talking competitive type viable, or just plain viable? Because the Dire is very viable for day to day play.

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

case in point.

What point are you trying to make here? The personal preference point?

[Khobai]

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There are some builds you can do on Dire Wolf that cant be done as well on the KDK due to the massive amount of hardpoints available on the Dire.

any brawling build you can do on a direwolf is inferior to what can be done on the spirit bear.

because going 52kph is contradictory to any brawling build to the point of being futile

there is a reason the spiritbear is generally considered the best assault brawler and the direwolf is not.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

the dire IS garbage compared to the kodiak

1) kodiak has higher hardpoints and nearly as much firepower as the direwolf
2) kodiak is way faster and more agile and has better hitboxes and better geometry for damage mitigation
3) kodiak is more customizable and has more available tonnage because it can take endo
4) spirit bear can take masc and is probably the single best assault brawler in the game right now (atlas-s gives it a good run for its money though). while the dire is even lucky to get into brawling range at 52kph lol.

thats kindve the whole point im trying to make. that some mechs are now obsolete and no one seems to wanna talk about making those obsolete mechs viable again.

I mean sure you could give the dire wolf its ecm variant and maybe shore it up a bit with structure quirks. But thats not really going to fix it. The issues run deeper than that. Theres too much importance placed on mechs having good geometry. Like the direwolf cant really mitigate damage because its protruding CT can be hit from virtually any angle. While the kodiak's geometry lets it mitigate damage much more easily. Especially since engine rating is still coupled to agility.

The only way you can really fix the bad geometry issue IMO is to minimize the impact of having bad geometry by implementing more damage spreading mechanics. Again we already have a bunch of damage spread mechanics in the game for a reason, and going more in that direction makes sense to me. I dont really see it pissing anyone off besides the people who are dual gauss, dual erppcing, but theyre a blight on the game anyway. Theyre the ones primarily abusing pinpoint alphas because they understand that it badly breaks the current armor system.

Id start with the most overpowered weapons like cgauss. Cgauss is a good candidate for a damage spread mechanic. Specifically because its way better than the ISGauss. If CGauss did splash damage like the CERPPC I think it could help balance the fact it weighs 3 tons less with no real downside. For balance reasons, Clan weapons should never be outright better than their IS counterparts, they should always have at least one downside. Thats the case for all other clan weapons except for cGauss. why is it the only exception?

Yes. The Dire is much worse than the Kodiak, due to geo - which is always going to be important, even with more weapons spreading, and the Omnimech build system which is overly restrictive - the dire simply needs buffs of some kind.

However i dont play in the same ppfld nightmare you apparently do. I play primarily solo queue, but with a fair bit of group queue mixed in, and what actually happens in the game is that i can spread damage all over my mech the vast majority of the time. I admit i dont play comp, so i cant speak to what happens there, but in the game i play? many styles are completely valid. Im bad at PPC gauss and barely use it, and i do fine running laserboats, dakka, dual/quad PPCs, mixed dakka PPCs, etc, and really dont feel this boogieman you speak of.

There are LOADs of mechs, including assaults, of both tech bases, that spread damage really well - but you do have to play at least somewhat carefully. If a 100 ton assault is looking at you, you should really ideally know about it already and be reacting, you should never stand still really (just random rocking back and forth throws off those pinpoint alphas, etc...

IS Gauss does needs to be buffed to make up for the tonnage - i think it should be just be changed to not explode at all.

[MechaBattler]

That seems a very specific test. But I get. It's high reward pin point nature is offset by it's a high risk nature due to long cooldown and the heavy nature of the weapons necessitating a slow assault. It reminds me of the 6 PPC Stalker. Except without much less overheating. They gave PPCs ghost heat because of builds like that.

[pyrocomp]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

um I have built kodiak-3s thats how I know it makes the direwolf obsolete

its not just more agile. its way faster. has better hitboxes and geometry for mitigating damage. has higher hardpoints. and it can take endosteel which gives it 5 more tons to work with than the direwolf.

trying to argue that the kodiak doesnt make the direwolf obsolete is simply not an argument you can win.

Again, it is faster with 400 engine. Which is heavy as hell. Take the abovementioned build into the QP and try to be agile with 300 engine. The KDK-3 has to pay 10 tonnes for the engine sacrificing firepower to agilty. With same engine as DWF the KDK has a way worse geo.

So, yes, please do build KDK-3 to mimic most popular DWF build and try to run them. The DWF is viable and a way less a bullet magnet nowdays as it used to be. Helps a bit.

Plus, to utilze KDK's high hardpoints you need to hillhump which is not alsways possible (take CS or RC).

[Khobai]

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Again, it is faster with 400 engine. Which is heavy as hell.

you dont have to take a 400 engine though. its pretty stupid to take a 400 engine because its inefficient.

battlemechs have unlocked engines you can take any size engine you want.

[pyrocomp]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

you dont have to take a 400 engine though. its pretty stupid to take a 400 engine because its inefficient.

battlemechs have unlocked engines you can take any size engine you want.

You are trying to get off the question.
If you do not mount large engine on the KDK then you lose all it's agilty. Which is a main point that KDK-3 is not superior to DWF-B by magic 'default' but rather KDK-3 with large engine is more agile than DWF-B but cannot use same dakka builds. So the point that DWF is not obsoleted by KSK stands. And yes, I have both mechs and those mechs are just different almost to the level of being incomparable. Haven't seen a build that suits both mechs.

[Khobai]

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If you do not mount large engine on the KDK then you lose all it's agilty.

ok so you put a 375 in not a 400

its not off the question at all. im just saying you dont put a 400 in because its not worth the diminishing returns that you get from the 400 due to the expontential tonnage increase. you dont have to run a 400 to have an agility advantage.

and yes the direwolf was obsoleted by the kodiak. virtually everyone on the forums agrees with that. even youtube acknowledges it. you are the only person trying to that the direwolf isnt obsolete. Its a losing argument.

the kodiak is just a better all around mech. period. its better in every single category except for one and in the one category its not as good as the direwolf in, its second only to the direwolf in.

Edited by Khobai, 11 April 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

ok so you put a 375 in not a 400

its not off the question at all. im just saying you dont put a 400 in because its not worth the diminishing returns that you get from the 400 due to the expontential tonnage increase. you dont have to run a 400 to have an agility advantage.

and yes the direwolf was obsoleted by the kodiak. virtually everyone on the forums agrees with that. even youtube acknowledges it. you are the only person trying to that the direwolf isnt obsolete. Its a losing argument.

the kodiak is just a better all around mech. period. its better in every single category except for one and in the one category its not as good as the direwolf in, its second only to the direwolf in.

I'm not sure that a reference to the youtube can count as an argument. Plus that 'everyone on the forums' is so wrong virtually every time that I won't stop on it. Bring solid arguments and solid proofs. Right now yopu are being subjective and trying to wind out.
As to 375 engine... again, not much weight is saved. And when enough wheight is saved the KDK has not much more agilty than DWF with way worse armor per front pixel ratio.
So no, I don't buy that. KDK is easier to understand, maybe, KDK may be easier to use, but it loses in only category where 100 tonners are the option. In all other categories where KDK is better than DWF the 100-tonners are a dubitious choise and lighter mechs shine brighter.
The obsoleted mech is an IS Orion, yes, try to find one in QP (I counted two encounters in a year). The FS lost it's use. Long time haven't seen any of Enforcers, almost no Ice Ferrets (but those happen to get by sometimes). But I see quite a lot of DWFs and not only KDKs. Sorry, but the in-game mech usage strongly supports the statement that DWFs live and prosper.

Edited by pyrocomp, 11 April 2017 - 03:40 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 11 April 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

That seems a very specific test. But I get. It's high reward pin point nature is offset by it's a high risk nature due to long cooldown and the heavy nature of the weapons necessitating a slow assault. It reminds me of the 6 PPC Stalker. Except without much less overheating. They gave PPCs ghost heat because of builds like that.

Nah, I said perpendicular to you, so from your point of view, I would be running right to left at say 600 meters in a Black Knight, you fire a 50 pt alpha at me from a KDK-3 and see what happens. From experience, I suspect I will end up with dual gauss to the CT and 2 ER PPCs to the LT. And then playing with some different ranges to see where it tights up to land on the same component.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

any brawling build you can do on a direwolf is inferior to what can be done on the spirit bear.

because going 52kph is contradictory to any brawling build to the point of being futile

there is a reason the spiritbear is generally considered the best assault brawler and the direwolf is not.

I never said brawling, I wouldn't be caught dead brawling in a Dire. KDK can't do the full laser vomit plus dual gauss build, which admittedly is ridiculous, but 98 damage alpha is nuts.

6 UAC5s/ 2 UAC10s-3UAC5s/ 8 UAC2s are all not possible on the Kodiak.

The dreaded 50 PPFLD alpha build also works well, not as good as a Kodiak, but its not a bad mech. I run a 3rd PPC just to be different, and its surprising how much use I get out of it.

I'm just saying, the Dire isn't a bottom of the barrel assault mech. Its not as optimized as the Kodiak is, but to say its garbage and useless is wrong. It also get's nerfed by your balancing suggestions, so its clear you want the Dire to suffer more than it does already.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 April 2017 - 03:54 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

"Stopping AlphaWarrior Online" just means making boating lasers ineffective, that's it. That mindset is cancer.

I want it to be MechWarrior Online, not "oh lets arbitrary ruin a few loadouts because they ruin games for me sometimes"-Warrior Online.

just repeating wihtout any proper arguments that it is cancer doesn't gives it more credibility. the laservomit is part of the alpha vomit gameplay and they both are porblematic.

[Deathlike]

Lily from animove, on 11 April 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

just repeating wihtout any proper arguments that it is cancer doesn't gives it more credibility. the laservomit is part of the alpha vomit gameplay and they both are porblematic.

Alpha vomit is only an actual problem if you don't torso twist and stand primarily in the same place the whole time. Of course, we could say a lot of the same things for Lurms.

Being heatcapped provides the opportunity for an opponent to force the issue... which is the same deal for Lurms and other weapons systems. Then again, not enough proper aggression is used in most games (especially if people camp and fail at their trades).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 April 2017 - 04:40 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Alpha vomit is only an actual problem if you don't torso twist and stand primarily in the same place the whole time. Of course, we could say a lot of the same things for Lurms.

except torso twisting isnt an option for all mechs due to lack of agility or poor geometry.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

except torso twisting isnt an option for all mechs due to lack of agility or poor geometry.

Unless you're a Dire, that's usually not an issue.

[Khobai]

lots of mechs have protruding CTs and can still be hit in the CT even when they torso twist. its not just the dire wolf.

I hate how people act like torso twisting is some godlike skill that will save you from dying. when really it only saves you against people who dont know where to shoot.

if you know where to shoot you can still hit a lot of mechs in the CT even if they torso twist.because often can still shoot a mech in the head which counts as CT. or the pelvis which often counts as CT and not legs for some reason. only a few mechs have the right geometries where their arms fully protect their torso. torso twisting is still an important skill and good practice but its not going to elevate your survivability to godlike levels like people make it out to.

And a lot of coordinated groups deliberately target legs anyway because legs can be hit from virtually any angle. And often people skimp on leg armor so its easier to just leg them than drill their CT. So torso twist all you want but its not gonna stop you from getting legged. the best you can do is try to shield your good leg with the bad one but thats pretty difficult.

Edited by Khobai, 11 April 2017 - 04:57 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 11 April 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

except torso twisting isnt an option for all mechs due to lack of agility or poor geometry.

this, because legs can't really twist or soem pelvis CT regions and many many others. so unless you run a SCR where twisting is a godlike option anyone with decent geometry knowledge and aim, as well as using around 1sec burntime lasers can land his vomits in the section he wants.

[SQW]

Templar Dane, on 11 April 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

People used to whine about there not being severe penalties with heat, like there is in tabletop. But the thing is, the penalties in tabletop mostly shat all over mechs with ammo. There isn't really anything to worry about if all you have are energy weapons. God forbid you have a mixed loadout though.

Heat also causes movement and aim penalties too. Laser boats on TT simply can't unload their entire compliment again and again without reduced effectiveness like in MWO.

Alpha strikes are suppose to be a weapon of last resort balancing incredible damage potential with crippling heat penalties that will affect your survival and limit your options in the next round. In MWO, because there's no penalties until 100%, alpha strike becomes the default attack - basically all gains and no risks. Couple that with instant convergence, what supposed to have been a 12v12 battle of skills is currently a game of twitch shooter and 'torso twists'.