69 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Many mechs have quirks that are needed to keep them relevant on the battlefield.
We know that many Mechs will have these quirks reduced when a new skill tree drops. However in order to keep things balanced those quirks need to be reinstated in the form of free skill notes. Can we get a PGI representative to confirm that all the Mechs that are getting quick reductions will get free notes to compensate in order to maintain balance?

You can't just take away quirks. The quirks are there because they are needed. If you take them away you have to replace them with additional skill nodes. When I mean "replace" I mean Mechs that are losing quirks will get more than 91 notes. Remember 91 nodes plus current quirks equals balance. If you remove quirks then you need to add more nodes.

Let's put it this way that nobody can argue with. A Mech with no quirks is balanced with 91 nodes. A mech with + 20% this and + 20% that will be balanced with + 20% this + 20% that and 91 nodes. If you remove + 20% this then what you're left with is only + 20% that and 91 notes. We know that isn't balanced. You need to give them more nodes now.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 23 April 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Replacing quirks with nodes makes the problem worse- then badmechs have to run X number of drops with their base (terrible) stats before they can unlock enough nodes to not suck anymore... and if you 'balance' them by just giving them extra nodes, then it takes even longer because they have to play catch-up twice: first to reach node parity (which makes them 'merely' as bad by comparison as they were when everything was just base stats), and then to max out their extra nodes and reach viability.

If badmechs get quirks replaced with extra nodes, then they need to just be given a stock of free nodes, available immediately when the 'Mech is purchased... and the trial variants (if any) need to come with those extra nodes pre-allocated, or they'll be useless for new players (or, I should say, even more useless than a cherry un-skilled badmech already is). I can't see PGI actually doing that. I'm hoping that they'll just leave quirks in place for the 'Mechs that need them, but more likely everything but the meta du jour will just be broken for a few months until reality catches up with the balance team.

[Zergling]

From both iterations of the Skill Tree PTS, I can confirm the answer to the OP's question is 'nope'.

Needless to say, this is one of very well deserved criticisms of the Skill Tree revamp.

Edited by Zergling, 23 April 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

You're assuming the badly-off mechs get more nodes to compensate.

So far, the answer is still no.

PGI so far is only doing a "fixed" tree with a "fixed" number of nodes for all mechs.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 April 2017 - 03:16 PM.

[FireStoat]

That more or less was the tragic part of the 2nd version of the skill tree when I tried it out on the test server. If you looked the quirk PDF that was issued with the build, clan mechs largely had all of their quirk %'s left intact. On top of this, mechs with drawbacks (timberwolf having one less module slot) had them thrown out the window for free. Without a doubt, the tree for Clan Mechs was an upgrade from a plain glazed doughnut to a blueberry fritter.

Which might be a reason why so many people screamed when the test server people giving reviews were taken seriously and PGI delayed it.

[Nik Reaper]

If the last PTS means anything , there were a number of mechs that kept some amount of quirks they had -an amount they could gain from the tree, so like it had a mech with weapon range +15% before and then it had ~+7% native and the rest you used nodes, it's not a 1:1 to old quirks but it's something, will it be enough.. guess well see... probly not in the first iteration.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nik Reaper, on 23 April 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

If the last PTS means anything , there were a number of mechs that kept some amount of quirks they had -an amount they could gain from the tree, so like it had a mech with weapon range +15% before and then it had ~+7% native and the rest you used nodes, it's not a 1:1 to old quirks but it's something, will it be enough.. guess well see... probly not in the first iteration.

A mech without quirks can use all 91 nodes to maintain expected performance.
A mech that loses quirks has to use nodes to make up for lost quirks. They then have less than 91 nodes left -> it is impossible for those Mechs to maintain expected performance because 91 nodes are needed for that.

Math is not hard, PGI.

[MechaBattler]

They did reiterate that nothing is set in stone from the PTS. So let's hope they revise the degree of quirk nerfs to only apply to differences in skill tree versus the current system. Like velocity bonuses and the fact cooldown reduction is less in the skill tree.

[Andi Nagasia]

well some Weapon Quirks are going away(because they are working on weapon balance more so now(new Tech)
some Agility Quirks are going away(as they are decuppling engine from Mech Agility(not fully but mostly)
Most if not all Structure Quirks are staying(as they are best for balance(also IS get better Skill Tree % than Clan)

but to answer your question no they arnt, nore do i feel they should,

[Sjorpha]

The skill tree we've seen so far shouldn't motivate the removal of a single quirk, actually it does nothing for balance.

[DAYLEET]

Sjorpha, on 23 April 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

actually it does nothing for balance.

The tree should be a great way to customise mech who need quirks so you arent stuck with defined quirks like we are right now. But when you mention that a strong mech who dont have any quirks shouldnt get any skillpoints then nobody wants that. Well ok lets buff Kodiak into god hood, i bought mine incase this ever happens.

[Pixel Hunter]

i'm not looking forward to this just because of the fact that bad mechs are gonna get hammered

[Bud Crue]

No. They are not giving bonus nodes.

The new skills tree and its associated nerfs, appears to be premised on some alternate reality wherein mechs that are bad now will somehow be made good by making them objectively worse in the new system; and mechs that are superior now and made better by not having to waste nodes recouping anything, will be magically balanced relative to the bad mechs.

This isn't a joke. This is the actual and apparent reasoning being put forth in their official announcements. They even put in writing that by this plan players will be given more choices and tha mech and build diversity will be increased...since apparently in this bizarre new reality of PGI's everyone will want to play bad mechs made worse, and only the most crazed individual would bother to play a meta mech that can now choose even more and better performance characteristics.

Remember Bazaro world from the old Superman/justice league cartoons? That's what PGI is apparently using as a basis of planing for mech balance under the skills tree.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I understand the concept of "rolling quirks into the skill tree," however you need to give Mechs free nodes to balance the missing quirks.

HOW IS THIS NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE? Why has this not been announced yet as the way quirks will be rolled into the new tree?

[Kangarad]

no sir. you will just lose the quirks. PGI is being stupid and thinks that having the same options to chose from on your vindicator will somehow make it as good as a kdk3 with the same options.

the dequirkening would only make sence IF there was actualy a balanced skill tree with different options per mech or atleast skill values per mech. but since everyone is getting the same thing the mass quirk reductions to both IS and underperforming clan mechs is just not a smart thing.

[Deathlike]

The problem with the skill tree is that mechs with no arm weapons (whether by design like the Spider-5V - or configured w/o weapons in the arms) will have to get unnecessary nodes for them.

[Bud Crue]

Deathlike, on 23 April 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

The problem with the skill tree is that mechs with no arm weapons (whether by design like the Spider-5V - or configured w/o weapons in the arms) will have to get unnecessary nodes for them.

Its certainly one of the problems. Sigh. I've written to much on this topic and I am nlt going to type ouf another diatribe, but I will say that I sure hope PGI wakes up to this issue. If the nerfs go live that are currently proposed, they are guaranteeing that the majority of the mechs in this game will be even less frequently than they already are. There is no motivation now to play some of the truly low tier mechs and there will be even less reason to play them after they are nerfed under the auspices of the skill tree. They said 2 of the four goals of the skills tree was improved diversity and increased choice. What they are proposing, will immediately result in the exact opposite.

[Accused]

I've said this many times. Quirks were only supposed to add flavor and bring up underperforming mechs to a higher standard.

Then PGI too a fat **** on that idea and here we are. "why can't you balance weapons" "need more nodes" "boating".

I would strip quirks off every mech and roll out the skill tree. Balance the weapons from there. Add quirks where "lore appropriate" and certainly not while high smoking crack. Hell maybe even add a progression tree for different tiered mechs. Eh, I'm out.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 23 April 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

I understand the concept of "rolling quirks into the skill tree," however you need to give Mechs free nodes to balance the missing quirks.

HOW IS THIS NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE? Why has this not been announced yet as the way quirks will be rolled into the new tree?

The forums warned PGI about this before the Skill Tree even reached the PTS. We warned them about this during the PTS. And we've made plenty of threads after the PTS concluded.

The truth of this situation and of MWO in general is that PGI does not get around to helping mechs that are weak. I don't know why, and I'm not sure if it matters why. All I know is that bad mechs are gonna keep being bad.

[Pixel Hunter]

FupDup, on 23 April 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

The forums warned PGI about this before the Skill Tree even reached the PTS. We warned them about this during the PTS. And we've made plenty of threads after the PTS concluded.

The truth of this situation and of MWO in general is that PGI does not get around to helping mechs that are weak. I don't know why, and I'm not sure if it matters why. All I know is that bad mechs are gonna keep being bad.

it seems the like making new mechs, or just believe that some mechs are canonically bad