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Fast Medium Harasser Advices


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#1 invernomuto

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:06 PM

Hi all,
I realized that I do not have in my mech collection a fast and agile medium mech that can be used as scout / harasser / sniper role.
Main requirement is that need to be fast and agile, so an high engine rating is essential.
ECM would be very appreciated. Build diversity and JJs are a plus.
I was thinking about getting a fast 40-45 mech to fill the role.
My candidates are:
  • Cicada
  • Phoenix Hawk
  • Viper (love the look of that mech but internal space is really limited and no ECM)
  • Assassin
Which one do you suggest? I was thinking about getting a PH or a Cicada but I'd like to hear some opinions.

Edited by invernomuto, 24 April 2017 - 02:16 PM.


#2 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:10 PM

Viper is probably the beast here.

I don't actually own one, but my Clan Mates love it, and it seems to get a lot of love from the Tier 1 crowd.

For me, it's the Assassin, which handles like a dream, tanks damage well and backstabs like a boss. That said, judging by scarcity, I am in the minority in my love for it, so IDK what to tell you.

You can run like the masses and succeed with ease, or try something new, and maybe surprise yourself. The Pixie honestly massively underwhelms me, and the Cicada while relatively popular, just doesn't click with me, personally.

#3 Metus regem

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:21 PM

I found the Pixei to be a fun ride, I had decent enough success with this, though I do like my PPC's....

PXH-1B

How ever seeing as you are a Clan loyalist, I'd talk to Pariah Devalis about his Ice Ferret builds, they can get a bit impressive.

#4 Khobai

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:27 PM

viper is the best fast medium by far, the other fast mediums dont even come close.

fastest speed youre gonna get, best jumpjets in the game, decent hitboxes that distribute damage well, best hardpoints/firepower, uses cxl and clan tech, and it has both endo and ferro which is amazing for an omni.

it lacks ecm but radar deprivation is all you really need to avoid LRMs. and its podspace is limited but since youre iikely putting 5 small pulses and 4 machine guns on it, you dont need a lot of podspace anyway. the only other downside is that it doesnt get structure quirks on its legs, so its legs do get taken out pretty fast, but thats a small price to pay for it being the best in virtually every other category for a fast medium.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2017 - 02:35 PM.


#5 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:30 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 24 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

I found the Pixei to be a fun ride, I had decent enough success with this, though I do like my PPC's....

PXH-1B

How ever seeing as you are a Clan loyalist, I'd talk to Pariah Devalis about his Ice Ferret builds, they can get a bit impressive.


I am a Shadow Cat and Huntsman pilot, thank you very much. Posted Image

That said, the Shadow Cat might be what he wants. ECM is available, very mobile, plenty fast, has a cool toy in MASC, high mounts for long range poke, and enough missile hard points to succeed as a close range striker. Even moreso the latter once the new C-Bill LT comes out, too.

The one place it is particularly weak at would be at medium range builds. Not enough energy hard points to manage that. Needs at least one more. :\

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 April 2017 - 02:31 PM.


#6 Metus regem

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:32 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 24 April 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:


I am a Shadow Cat and Huntsman pilot, thank you very much. Posted Image

That said, the Shadow Cat might be what he wants. ECM is available, very mobile, plenty fast, has a cool toy in MASC, high mounts for long range poke, and enough missile hard points to succeed as a close range striker. Even moreso the latter once the new C-Bill LT comes out, too.

The one place it is particularly weak at would be at medium range builds. Not enough energy hard points to manage that. Needs at least one more. :\


I know that you specialize in the Shadow Cat and Huntsmen, but I remember when you didn't have the option of either of those, and you were hell on two legs with a Ice Ferret....

#7 Ruar

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:33 PM

I skirmish/harass quite well in the Enforcer, but it's not fast. I have Assassins but I don't think they are what you are looking for because you have to close the gap and the rest of the mechs you listed stay at range. Of the ones you listed I would go with the Cicada.

#8 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:34 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 24 April 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:


I know that you specialize in the Shadow Cat and Huntsmen, but I remember when you didn't have the option of either of those, and you were hell on two legs with a Ice Ferret....


It's a tanky thing, but I donno. Now that it will get a Hero and C-Bill version with an ECM CT, it goes up a peg, but on the other hand, that mech really cannot afford to give up even one ton. It could do the mid range laser builds better than the SHC, though.

#9 Bud Crue

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:34 PM

Cicada 3M with 2LPLs or 3ERLL can be a night mare. Even a scrub like me can pull decent scores in that thing. I am coming to enjoy my Phoenix Hawks as well but only when played with near max engines and as a brawling light; harasser sniper role was an unmitigated disaster for me (not that I don't still do it on occasion). Don't have the other's but there seems to be much love for the Viper and certainly a lot of respect.

#10 Khobai

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:37 PM

shadowcat is way too slow to be considered a fast medium. masc is pretty garbage too. shadowcat would be better off if its masc tonnage and other locked equipment was just rolled into its engine instead.

shadowcat goes like 105 while the viper goes 140, the viper completely outclasses it as a fast medium.

the viper also has way scarier weapons than a shadowcat too, 5 pulses and 4 machine guns.

another problem with the shadowcat is that its outright inferior to other mechs that are 5-10 tons heavier. like a huntsman or stormcrow are both way better mechs. the viper is much better suited at taking on mechs above its own weight class because of its speed. the shadowcat just gets blown apart by anything heavier than it is.

Quote

Cicada 3M with 2LPLs or 3ERLL can be a night mare.


i think the cicada with medium pulse spam is much scarier personally. If I was gonna make a cicada thats what id put on it.

I crush those large lasers builds because they just dont put out the dps to compete with my viper.

If youre gonna play a fast medium, put brawling weapons on it, its way more fun that way and your damage potential is far better. And that way youre not contributing to the toxic long range meta either.

Quote

It could do the mid range laser builds better than the SHC, though.


even a lowly kitfox does mid range laser builds better than a SHC. the SHC only gets 3 energy hardpoints which makes it unviable IMO. the kitfox also gets that nice -15% heat quirk.

i really cant think of anything the SHC does better than another mech... I guess its still better than the cougar though, but thats not saying much.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2017 - 03:02 PM.


#11 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:38 PM

View PostKhobai, on 24 April 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

viper is the best fast medium by far, the other fast mediums dont even come close.

You have clearly never played the CDA-2B

That said, OP, really I don't agree with your concept of harasser here, mechs that play like the Cheetah (aka 6 SPL backstabbers) are not really harassers. The LPL/LL/ERLL Raven and the LPL/ERLL/ERPPC Shadow Cat are more your harassers along with some of your mid range harassers like the 5 ERML Ice Ferret. In other words harassers typically have range (something the Viper really can't afford) but not good enough DPS to be useful except in sustained engagements.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 April 2017 - 02:42 PM.


#12 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:39 PM

View PostKhobai, on 24 April 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

shadowcat is way too slow to be considered a fast medium


100+ is plenty fast. Especially with the option to push 120 in bursts, with ECM, and a small profile. It certainly jumps way better than many of the alternatives, outside of the Viper. Except the viper is paper mache, and only does one-and-a-half builds well due to even tighter tonnage limitations than the Ice Ferret. :\

#13 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:47 PM

That said, for short range back-stabbing:
CDA-2B is top dog, with the Viper/Ice Ferret (5-6 cSPLs) coming in second with the Pixie (8 SPLs) coming up behind. Assassin is still somewhat unknown to me where it really falls into place because of the priority put on lasers right now at short range.

For mid range harassment:
Ice Ferret (5 ERML) is unparalleled here, I don't really suggest anything else.

For long/extreme range harassment:
Shadow Cat (2 LPL/2-3 ERLL/2 ERPPC) is still probably your best option with the Pixie (3 ERLL, ECM) being the only thing that really comes close. If you are a hipster, you could even poptart/harass in the Shadow Cat with a UAC5/ERPPC combo.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 April 2017 - 02:56 PM.


#14 Moonlight Grimoire

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:54 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 24 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

I found the Pixei to be a fun ride, I had decent enough success with this, though I do like my PPC's....

PXH-1B

How ever seeing as you are a Clan loyalist, I'd talk to Pariah Devalis about his Ice Ferret builds, they can get a bit impressive.


Piggybacking off of this as a pretty much dedicated Pixie pilot at this point, my PXH-1b runs off of this build and has for probably the past 290 of its 312ish matches. Vipers are nasty mechs, lasers and MG's combined will chew up and spit out mech bits and with their mobility in three axis's they can out maneuver a lot of players which makes up for the lack of ECM. And, in fact, ECM can be a hindrance as the bubble can give you away before you want it to for shorter range mechs. Either way. The Assassin is a pretty tanky mech, but, is real money only atm, Cicada is a long time strong mech, has one jump option and one ecm option both are interesting. So you can't to too wrong with the Cicada.

So, the two strongest choices for you atm really are the Viper and the Cicada. While the Viper is tight on space it is clan so that just means remember your ML's are like IS LL's, slap them in the ST mount's and troll a bit like a Raven 3L that has JJ's if you desired, but, really. For a harasser, my best advice is quick burn or fire and forget weaponry, SRM's, Small and Med Pulse, UAC5's, and PPC's are your bread and Butter so you can poke a spot then scurry off, or, go full DPS. You aren't meant for alpha striking, you are meant for DPS, you will never have the tonnage for alpha's, but, you can get a good constant DPS build in the 40-45 bracket and that makes them nasty buggers to ignore, and more nasty with the speed they can pull off.

#15 Lupis Volk

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:55 PM

Clan Viper.

IS: Assassin and Cicada. I tend to favour the Assassin because of it's combo of SRM's and energy.

#16 Khobai

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:07 PM

Quote

You have clearly never played the CDA-2B


Um except I said if I played a cicada id play the medium pulse spam one because its scary. so yes im well aware of its potential.

While that cicada build is better at specific things, the viper is still better overall IMO. In a 1v1 fight the viper certainly has an edge because of its lower arm actuators. the cicada can only shoot straight which is a huge disadvantage in light vs light fights. viper can quite literally run circles around it.

Quote

100+ is plenty fast. Especially with the option to push 120 in bursts, with ECM, and a small profile. It certainly jumps way better than many of the alternatives, outside of the Viper. Except the viper is paper mache, and only does one-and-a-half builds well due to even tighter tonnage limitations than the Ice Ferret. :\


Again its 105+masc vs 140. The shadowcat isnt even in the same class as the viper for speed.

The shadowcat is far more paper mache than the viper due to its lack of speed and larger and more awkward hitboxes. the viper is better in every category but one, which is not having ecm.

and the viper only needs to do one build well: 5 pulses and 4 machine guns is absolutely devastating.

the viper is hands down the best overall fast medium. that doesnt mean it does everything the best though. it just means its the best overall, it does virtually everything well, and has very few exploitable weaknesses.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2017 - 03:23 PM.


#17 Archer Magnus

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:07 PM

I've had good luck with the Cicada, but I haven't tried the others. Here is my setup, my lasers I have setup on fire group 1 and 2. On fire group one I have them as a chain fire to knock out components (when the enemy is focused on someone else). Fire group 2 is firing all at once for quick pokes.

With the target gather and the beagle the "paper target" pops up almost instantly, so knocking off components is fast to target. You can also assist LRM boats by holding and marking targets. You don't really need Radar Derp with the ECM.

Posted Image
Posted Image

Some good games, most don't go this well for me!

Posted Image
Posted Image


That is playing second line, always poking people, never brawling! But from what I have heard the Cicada is "squishy". Certainly, you need to torso twist. I do so looking at the ground so people shoot the mini arms.

#18 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:09 PM

Of those options, I would go for the Viper. I wasn't a fan at first, they always seemed so fragile and lacking in firepower. Then I played one and good grief, they are fun! They do Small and Medium Lasers very well and SRMs decently enough. Add MGs or Flamers if you're feeling creative!

I would, however, recommend at least considering the Shadow Cat. It truly is an excellent scout / harasser / sniper and has the tonnage for;
2x ERPPC
2x LPL
3x ERLL

#19 Nemesis Duck

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:17 PM

Evening Ladies. Pick the Cicada, of course. Posted Image

#20 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:18 PM

View PostKhobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:


Um except I said if I played a cicada id play the medium pulse one because its scary. so yes im aware of its potential.

The viper is still better IMO.



Again its 105+masc vs 140. The shadowcat isnt even in the same class as the viper for speed.

The shadowcat is far more paper mache than the viper due to its lack of speed and larger and more awkward hitboxes. the viper is better in every category but one, which is not having ecm.

and the viper only needs to do one build well: 5 pulses and 4 machine guns is absolutely devastating.


Straight speed, of course the Viper is faster. This isn't a game of just speed, however. The complete package counts, here. Viper loses limbs, especially legs, in a stiff breeze, and suddenly that speed is a nonfactor. As a long range harasser, the Viper will never approach the SHC. As a mech capable of slipping past radar of the enemy, the Viper is forced to hug terrain, whereas the Shadow Cat can not only hug terrain, but poke out to look around safely due to its ECM. Makes it a lot easier to pick, choose, and time the attacks that are closer range.

A harasser has no need to stick around, either. The idea is you hit hard from the sides or rear, then re-position.

Viper is also a boring mech, customization wise. You listed one of the only good builds for it. Meanwhile, someone with a Shadow Cat could go, for long range, 3x ERLLas ECM, 2x LPlas ECM, 2x ERPPC ECM, 2x LRM10 2x ERMLas NARC ECM. All viable. For close range, you can get away with a 3x ASRM6 2x SPlas ECM, and soon 4x ASRM6 2x ERSLas build, and already makes a vicious light and light-medium hunter with 3x SSRM6 ECM builds.

If medium range is what the OP wants, than he is better served with the IFR, given it does laser boating better than the SHC, and is far tankier than the Viper at the expense of jump jets.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 April 2017 - 03:22 PM.






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