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Headshot Begone


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#1 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:36 AM

Just a small idea surrounding the idea of the headshot or the head compartment, the way this function works in practice is like a hackusation 101 course, and with every mech equally susceptible but to varying degrees (lights for example have headshot advantage because of size and speed alone), it is a very strange system really when you think about it terms of the deathmatch situation MWO is.

So my first thought was make successful headshots simply deal double damage to the front CT slot, rather than functioning as it does to automatically kill a player when destroyed.

Then I thought about this more and in practice, this ends up working like a real "critical hit" system, based on locational hits on vital areas, rather than at the whims of RNGesus. So to extend the idea would be to remove the crit system as we know it, and add maybe some more critical/vital locational hitboxes to mechs, including the head, each of which deals multiplied damage when struck.

I thought it would be in the best interest of everyone to change how the headshot system works as it is a strangely "balanced" one to say the least. But the idea of the critical hit system being based off accuracy really got me thinking there, just thought I'd share.

What is everyone's thoughts on the headshot system and or the critical system and or my idea? :)

#2 B0oN

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 01:13 AM

Kill the meat, save the metal .

Headshots are hard to achieve and so very satisfying to pull off, so why did you want them to go away again ?
Randomness ?
C´mon, be serious .

HSR is erratic from time to time, denying properly placed shots to count as such . Now you want to remove the "ultimate" placed shot ?
Nahhh ... if a cockpit is destroyed the meat inside dies most likely, so no more neural controlling impulses through the neurohelmet, no more movin and shootin from that beheaded dude over there .

If anything at ALL :
stabilize and massively improve HSR, so we see more of them, not less .

Imagine any other shooter game without headshots ... nope, I cant think of one that hasnt got HS systems of one or the other kind ...oh wait ! Splattoon on Nintendo doesnt have HS ...

Also : why replace a well done HS with something that gives damage to another mechregion entirely ? Nöööööö, sounds a lot like an unneccessary reroute to take and complicate this game furthermore with convoluted stuff (Ghostheat, anyone?) that is too far away from shooter genre standards to be even pondered for inclusion .

So, no Shifty, your idea is not very much to my liking . It takes away from the game without giving anything meaningful back to it .

"He who HS is the king of swift death" Book of Counterstrike, Beta 0.38

#3 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:15 AM

View PostThe Shortbus, on 25 April 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

Headshots are hard to achieve and so very satisfying to pull off, so why did you want them to go away again ?
Randomness ?


The crit system is randomness. The headshot system suffers from that same randomness, the idea of mechs dying to a single hit may be fun in some ways for the guy doing it, but it kind of sucks in concept for every mech to have a "killswitch" slot like that, not matter their weight or distinction, there is already high risk in backshots and the like.

View PostThe Shortbus, on 25 April 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

HSR is erratic from time to time, denying properly placed shots to count as such. Now you want to remove the "ultimate" placed shot ? why replace a well done HS with something that gives damage to another mechregion entirely ?


The issue with hit registration is not the point here at all, that is an entirely separate issue. And there was never a "removing" of well placed shot bonuses at all in my suggestion, the head slot is always located within the front CT slot, the idea of having that vital location within all mech CT dealing double damage instead of being a separate component in itself, is far from removing the system.

View PostThe Shortbus, on 25 April 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

Nahhh ... if a cockpit is destroyed the meat inside dies most likely, so no more neural controlling impulses through the neurohelmet, no more movin and shootin from that beheaded dude over there .

If anything at ALL :
stabilize and massively improve HSR, so we see more of them, not less .

Imagine any other shooter game without headshots ... nope, I cant think of one that hasnt got HS systems of one or the other kind ...oh wait ! Splattoon on Nintendo doesnt have HS ...

Also : Nöööööö, sounds a lot like an unneccessary reroute to take and complicate this game furthermore with convoluted stuff (Ghostheat, anyone?) that is too far away from shooter genre standards to be even pondered for inclusion .


Pretty much all logical fallacies. Posted Image

View PostThe Shortbus, on 25 April 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

So, no Shifty, your idea is not very much to my liking . It takes away from the game without giving anything meaningful back to it .


OK so that's one no ;)

#4 B0oN

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 05:25 AM

Sooo, killing the pilot of any piloted machine and thusly disabling the machine from posing any further threat to your team is a logical fallacy ?

Hmmmm, okay, if you say so ...

Edited by The Shortbus, 25 April 2017 - 05:26 AM.


#5 General Solo

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:08 AM

OP you keep raising topic about how you wanna change the game, adapt to the game
so how about
No

Its a thinking mans shooter

Get intel on head locations from Interweb
Shoot said locations
Profit

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 25 April 2017 - 08:11 AM.


#6 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:07 AM

View PostOZHomerOZ, on 25 April 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

OP you keep raising topic about how you wanna change the game


This is the suggestions section?

View PostThe Shortbus, on 25 April 2017 - 05:25 AM, said:

Sooo, killing the pilot of any piloted machine and thusly disabling the machine from posing any further threat to your team is a logical fallacy ?


No, bringing up red herrings, hasty generalisations and strawman arguments makes those specific points logical fallacies, I addressed the points that were relevant.

It is a suggestion/discussion about the headshot system as it is in the game and how it can potentially function, not how it might function in reality or how headshots function in other games.

#7 B0oN

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:17 PM

Welp ... a headshot is a headshot and should kill/maim/cripple/hurt/damage as such .
As rare as they are, they happen . Even in (brace for unholy words) the lore of BT .
Lucky gauss to the face ?
SPLAT, dead .
But okay, lets check it out just a tiny bit deeper .

So lemme get that straight :
In your proposition you postulate that a headshot will have it´s damage averted into the CT, at twice the damage that headshot dealt, correct ?

Under that system I can only foresee one thing : ppl will want their ct´s buffed even further than they already are, just because they got headshot by luck/splash and instead of driving a convertible from that point in time on (damaged head) they might lose their complete CT instead, because the Headie dealt double damage down into front CT.

I see shiploads of salt, rage, tears, hackusations and another wave of quirkings ... nope thanks, I rather decline .

#8 Jericho Jones

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:09 PM

Head shots have been part of battletech since its inception in the mid 1980's. They will allways be part of the game. They should allways be part of the game. What they need to add is some cool graphics so when somone scores a head shot the "head" of the mech goes flying through the air and crashes into the surrounding terrain.

Who wants to play soccer with the head of that pesky phoenix hawk? Come on, You know you do :)

#9 Generic Internetter

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:10 PM

Any discussion about headshots is pointless until they fix the hit detection / hitbox / lagshield issues.
They've done a good job considering all factors, but still it needs to be better before headshots becomes a viable talking point.

Edited by Generic Internetter, 25 April 2017 - 10:10 PM.


#10 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:31 AM

View PostThe Shortbus, on 25 April 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Welp ... a headshot is a headshot and should kill/maim/cripple/hurt/damage as such .
As rare as they are, they happen . Even in (brace for unholy words) the lore of BT .
Lucky gauss to the face ?
SPLAT, dead .
But okay, lets check it out just a tiny bit deeper .

So lemme get that straight :
In your proposition you postulate that a headshot will have it´s damage averted into the CT, at twice the damage that headshot dealt, correct ?

Under that system I can only foresee one thing : ppl will want their ct´s buffed even further than they already are, just because they got headshot by luck/splash and instead of driving a convertible from that point in time on (damaged head) they might lose their complete CT instead, because the Headie dealt double damage down into front CT.

I see shiploads of salt, rage, tears, hackusations and another wave of quirkings ... nope thanks, I rather decline .


You make it seem as though most of this doesn't already apply with the headshot system that we have, which it does, hence why I even considered a suggestion around it at all.

I think you are overplaying it a bit here too, the headshot system that exists is not vastly different from the suggestion itself (the title is a bit misleading there it was never the intent to remove working systems entirely), the idea of double damage being inflicted through a headshot would occur at the same kind of rarity as any other headshot right now, which would hardly make a call for increased armor values, no more than people calling for increased head armor ratings right now (which is little to none).

Besides the fact the headshot system we have now isn't perfect, a gauss hit to your pilots window isn't necessarily an instant killshot, and the idea of the realism factor (which again should stay on the real world side of things in the majority), with maiming/injuring/disabling etc, the systems we have aren't perfect or fully realistic either.

Consider my idea applying all over a mech (again the shabby hitboxes we have now are beside the point, the idea itself in a working system is what I am discussing), say for legs, the 'knee' and 'ankle' joints of a given mech could be considered the weak points of the leg structure, providing extra damage when targeted within the leg itself (like a head slot for legs with my damage multiplier idea), similarly for arms, the elbow and inner shoulder points might be the critical locations there etc. In that system, granted it was working, the idea of "critical hits" could be entirely replaced with critical locations within each structure point, which overall would be more realistic IMO than what we have, not just for headshots.

#11 B0oN

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 01:09 AM

Ahhhh, now you´re talkin buddy .
You should´ve spread out your idea in the opening post (headshot-centric) as you did with that last post (mech critical weak points), because then it starts to make more sense .

Oh you, dont iceberg yer idea Posted Image

Are we talking randomly assigned "through-armor-crits" on special positions around the mech or positionally assigned structural weak spots (aka the spots that are not fully covered/encased by armor due to moving parts) ?
Last one might be quite difficult ( computing, coding) but could have the potential to "alter" gameplay towards a more "lore-ish" fighting feel, where odd things always could happen with a lucky shot .

Edited by The Shortbus, 26 April 2017 - 01:10 AM.


#12 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 01:37 AM

View PostThe Shortbus, on 26 April 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

Ahhhh, now you´re talkin buddy .
You should´ve spread out your idea in the opening post (headshot-centric) as you did with that last post (mech critical weak points), because then it starts to make more sense .

Oh you, dont iceberg yer idea Posted Image

Are we talking randomly assigned "through-armor-crits" on special positions around the mech or positionally assigned structural weak spots (aka the spots that are not fully covered/encased by armor due to moving parts) ?
Last one might be quite difficult ( computing, coding) but could have the potential to "alter" gameplay towards a more "lore-ish" fighting feel, where odd things always could happen with a lucky shot .


The exact working mechanics of it would be at the discretion of the devs I guess, the idea of points that bypass armor entirely is interesting, particularly with joints at knees and elbows, but at that level of critical hitboxes within the structure points they could also function differently too, just as an example a headshot might deal double damage to armor, while a knee shot might do direct structure damage, or a shot to the ST critical section might cause only a little bonus damage but also do some heat damage etc.

That would be getting into some deeper levels of complexity for sure, but it could be doable, getting the hitsections themselves fully working is probably the biggest part effort wise, as you guys have pointed out the system isn't perfect right now in terms of hitboxes so it is obviously not an "easy" task.

But I think starting with the headboxes would be a good starting position, as it is that most vital hitbox of all. Instead of a separate structural component entirely, to function as the main CT vital point with conditions attached, doubling damage is just an example too, there could be much more complexity involved in the conditions too.

#13 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 01:47 AM

It would also make spread weapons much more effective at "crit seeking", an LBX shot at a mechs head at the right distance is almost guaranteed to hit the head compartment at least partially, in the system we have right now though, that damage to the head slot usually amounts to wasted damage as it it only a portion of the spread, whereas if it were a critical component, the effect of the hit would be more directly amplified, making spread to a certain level actually very nice.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 April 2017 - 01:49 AM.


#14 General Solo

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:24 AM

View PostShifty McSwift, on 25 April 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

This is the suggestions section?


Don't like your suggestion
Feedback

#15 B0oN

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:26 AM

Keep on talking, Shifty, it gets more interesting :)

#16 Athom83

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:08 PM

View PostShifty McSwift, on 25 April 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

The crit system is randomness. The headshot system suffers from that same randomness, the idea of mechs dying to a single hit may be fun in some ways for the guy doing it, but it kind of sucks in concept for every mech to have a "killswitch" slot like that, not matter their weight or distinction, there is already high risk in backshots and the like.

Sounds more like a "you" problem for not taking at least 12 points of head armor to not get oneshot by D-Gauss. 12 points is usually good enough for everything else. I always enjoy getting those occasional headshots on mechs who decide that since the hitboxes are so small noone could ever hit the component so take 0 armor on it.

View PostShifty McSwift, on 25 April 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

The issue with hit registration is not the point here at all, that is an entirely separate issue. And there was never a "removing" of well placed shot bonuses at all in my suggestion, the head slot is always located within the front CT slot, the idea of having that vital location within all mech CT dealing double damage instead of being a separate component in itself, is far from removing the system.

Not like a 180mm shell hitting a pilot directly should harm him in any way. Posted Image

View PostShifty McSwift, on 26 April 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

Consider my idea applying all over a mech (again the shabby hitboxes we have now are beside the point, the idea itself in a working system is what I am discussing), say for legs, the 'knee' and 'ankle' joints of a given mech could be considered the weak points of the leg structure, providing extra damage when targeted within the leg itself (like a head slot for legs with my damage multiplier idea), similarly for arms, the elbow and inner shoulder points might be the critical locations there etc. In that system, granted it was working, the idea of "critical hits" could be entirely replaced with critical locations within each structure point, which overall would be more realistic IMO than what we have, not just for headshots.

I'm all for weakpoints. However, they'd need to do a proper destructible armor system to make it work. While popularized mech designs have exposed joints that would realistically cripple the vehicle, realistic mech designs have those points armored with extra bits of armor that are either add on (spaced armor along the lines of a Panzer IV) or designed in a way to maximize the armor over those sections (double jointed, structure covering, etc). Just typing in "mech" to google images give examples of "proper" and "popular" mech designs.

Examples of "proper" mech design;
Spoiler

Essentially anything that maximizes frontal firepower while providing as much protection to the weakpoints (joints) without sacrificing too much in mobility. Also notice how these don't have exposed cockpits. In a realistic setting, these could actually hold their own and actually be useful on the battlefield.

Examples of "popular" mech design;
Spoiler

Essentially designs that have exposed or very lightly armored weakpoints or that have limbs/structures that are so thin, they'd break apart with even a glancing hit or near miss. Another popular design of mechs that isn't proper would be to have exposed cockpits (like most of BT's mechs). In a world with lasers, tracking missiles, and other, these designs would be torn apart in a realistic setting.

However, there are tons of designs in between the "popular" and "proper" ways of designing a mech. Mostly, humanoid designs. They really depend on the angles of armor, thickness of legs, and their ability to mount forward facing weaponry. For MWO examples:
Take the Shadow Hawk; thick limbs, angular armor, room for tons of frontal firepower. Leans towards "proper".
Take the Victor; thin limbs (except gun arm), bulky midsection with no room for weapons nor armor. Leans toward "popular".
Take the Banshee; generally bulky and angular armor, loads of weapon mounting possibilities, has very exposed weakpoints (waist, hips, shoulders). Leans towards "proper" but is mainly in the middle due to the weakpoints.
However, these would all be classed as "popular" as they have exposed cockpits.

Tying this all back to the topic; Weakpoints, while a good idea on paper, would lead to major issues due to current mech geometry (how exposed, where they are). It would need a proper counterbalancing mechanic or it would break the game to where even more mechs would be relegated to paperweight status. While having an exposed head/cockpit is unrealistic in the first place, being able to insta-kill by headshot on that exposed cockpit with a pilot inside is realistic and makes sense. However, the headshotting is balanced by the fact that you can heavily armor that exposed piece of glass and that the hitboxes are far smaller than their cosmetic appearance. While it is annoying that you can get insta-killed by a headshot, it not only makes sense but is the most effective way of taking down a mech (if you hit).

View PostShifty McSwift, on 26 April 2017 - 01:37 AM, said:

But I think starting with the headboxes would be a good starting position, as it is that most vital hitbox of all. Instead of a separate structural component entirely, to function as the main CT vital point with conditions attached, doubling damage is just an example too, there could be much more complexity involved in the conditions too.

If the cockpit was a part of the core of the mech with the exposed head only being sensors and stuff (Armored Core style), then I'd agree. However, following the designs of MWO and logic (oxymoron, I know) with the physical being of the pilot sitting right behind that piece of glass, it just wouldn't make any sense.

Edited by Athom83, 27 April 2017 - 06:10 PM.


#17 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:52 PM

View PostAthom83, on 27 April 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

Sounds more like a "you" problem for not taking at least 12 points of head armor to not get oneshot by D-Gauss.


Starting your post with a presumptuous thinly veiled insult makes the concept of reading your post further a daunting one honestly. I don't think I have ever even reduced head armor at any stage, but thanks for that advice I guess.

#18 Dr Cara Carcass

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:07 AM

View PostGeneric Internetter, on 25 April 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

Any discussion about headshots is pointless until they fix the hit detection / hitbox / lagshield issues.
They've done a good job considering all factors, but still it needs to be better before headshots becomes a viable talking point.


Nah i am going to break 900 headshots this weekend. I manage to open a head and damage the interneals to super red every game when i try to pull off a headshot. About every 5th game i get the damn thing. When i started i took em about 20 games to get one. HSR messes with me alot, when stationary mechs catch the bullets with the dead center of their cockpit hitzone but the dmg goes into the center somehow. So yes hitreg is a problem - but its actually doable. Its a matter of actually trying to hit the cockpit.

Here are 400 Headshots that i managed to record without teh file beeing corrupt (damn u haupauge) or accidentially not captureing the gameplay.



Its not as hard to do as u think.

#19 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 11:27 AM

View PostCara Carcass, on 28 April 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:



Its not as hard to do as u think.


Holy hot damn dude I hate/love you :D

#20 Kalimaster

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 02:10 PM

Lets leave the headshot mechanic alone. There is enough stuff we need in this game without trying to redo every nit pick spot of it.





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