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Quirk Nerfs


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#1 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:24 PM

I don't understand what is hard to understand about this but quirks should not be getting nerfed. I understand the mobility quirk removal (even though it would be nice to see them instead of baked into the variant agility attributes), but weapon/defense I don't.

Look, some of the best mechs don't have quirks, and you have now equalized the playing field with regard to differences in module options that exist currently (even though some mechs have more module slots than they can realistically use). In other words the skill tree is a very very minor buff to mechs like the Whale and Timby which only have one weapon module slot currently. Then on top of that you are reducing much needed quirks for a variety of mechs that force them to spend points to get them back while the Night Gyr lost nothing so it can spend its points however it wants without feeling worse off than before.



The skill tree should be as tech/class agnostic as possible because balance should not change between leveling a mech compared to others (at the same "level"). Basically the balance between completely unskilled mechs should be the exact same as balance between fully skilled mechs. Therefore quirks should not be getting nerfed in "preparation" for this change.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 April 2017 - 12:46 PM.


#2 MechaBattler

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:56 PM

I find it funny they reduced the Crab's standard laser duration quirk. Like they thought combined with skill tree duration skills it would suddenly be catapulted to the top of the meta food chain.

Edited by MechaBattler, 25 April 2017 - 12:56 PM.


#3 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 01:38 PM

In order to get the same 15% ER laser duration quirks as in live for the SNV-1, it requires 100% in the laser weapon tree. Without these quirks, it really has nothing to set itself apart from any of the other, often superior, assault mech options in the game. The near elimination of its quirks forces it to compete directly against mechs with superior hardpoints, superior geometry, and superior mobility. In other words, it has no way to actually compete with them.

The SNV-1 is just a single example. There are several others.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 01:39 PM.


#4 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 01:49 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 25 April 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

In order to get the same 15% ER laser duration quirks as in live for the SNV-1, it requires 100% in the laser weapon tree. Without these quirks, it really has nothing to set itself apart from any of the other, often superior, assault mech options in the game. The near elimination of its quirks forces it to compete directly against mechs with superior hardpoints, superior geometry, and superior mobility. In other words, it has no way to actually compete with them.

The SNV-1 is just a single example. There are several others.

Exactly, I don't understand the logic that went into this decision because it seems to completely miss the point of quirks and the problems currently with mech balance. Sure, if we start tiering mechs then it makes more sense but until we get to that point we shouldn't just be nerfing all the less fortunate mechs.

#5 G4LV4TR0N

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:15 PM

Take a look at Clan mobility quirks and mechs that are affected most - Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, Mad Dog, Linebacker, Summoner, Gargoyle, Highlander IIC, Executioner. Are those considered top performers?

https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 25 April 2017 - 02:23 PM.


#6 Calbearpig

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:49 PM

LOL yeah they are literally going about nerfing all the trash tier mechs while relatively buffing the god tier mechs.

More salt on HPG on this topic...

https://www.reddit.c...irking_balance/

#7 Dee Eight

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:51 PM

All the mechs are being offensively de-quirked because one of the intentions to the new tree and re-balance effort, is to increase the TTK. This has been public common knowledge on the forums for months now. This is also why defence quirks are largely being left alone even though the tree nodes stack with them in some spectacularly ways.

Edited by Dee Eight, 25 April 2017 - 03:04 PM.


#8 Calbearpig

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:54 PM

The problem with that is the dequirking is asymmetric. The Kodiak 3 didn't have any offensive quirks. Neither did the NTGs or the TBRs, for a reason. So they are NOT getting nerfed (rather they're getting buffed).

#9 HGAK47

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

Let us not forget that the blog post from the devs does state that they do acknowledge that quirks will take additional revisions and patches over time to get it right. Im happy to hear that from them.

If reducing TTK is a overall goal then I understand too.

That all being said, I took a look at the Centurion line up and it looks like the CN9-D has a lower base mobility than a Yen Lo Wang now Posted Image sad times. At least it kept a portion of its ballistics quirks but I dunno. Im eager to try this all out but im also still not satisified. Its not the end of the world or anything but I really would like fun odd mechs to stay fun and odd even if they are not that competitive. It would also be great to see more mechs able to compete at the higher levels instead of forever being lol mechs or "just mehh".

After a little more reading it appears a similar thing is happening to many IS mechs, a lot of the "flavour" quirks that made them unique and interesting are being removed or reduced. All PGI has to do is address this issue even if they wont fix it right now, just give us a heads up that you understand the issue.

Edited by HGAK47, 25 April 2017 - 03:05 PM.


#10 Mycroft000

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 03:02 PM

Increasing TTK, not reducing.

#11 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 03:26 PM

View Postmycroft000, on 25 April 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Increasing TTK, not reducing.

If the goal was to increase TTK, then the top performers should be brought down, not the underperformers.

#12 El Rizzo

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:01 PM

View Postmycroft000, on 25 April 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Increasing TTK, not reducing.


And that is not even generally the case, the TTK actually gets lower on most good mechs (aka Clan mechs) because they get a straight buff through the new offensive quirks. Take the Dakka Kodiak 3 for example, it never had any jam, structure/armor or velocity quirks and couldn't get them through modules either, now it has all of them plus cooldown and range AND gets tankier on top of it ... a clear case of a buff to the strongest Assault mech the game currently has to offer.

At the same time the Atlas S ,for example, gets almost all of its offensive quirks removed and you need to heavily invest in the weapon skill tree to get the same quirks back that you had before, some not even reaching previous levels while some new ones get introduced. All in all the Atlas gets a mixed bag of buffs and nerfs while the Kodiak only gets buffs and zero nerfs.

How is that going to increase TTK and not reduce it ? The mechs get a little tankier, sure, but at the same time Clan mechs get a boost to weapons to at least negate the increased tankyness, maybe even reducing TTK.

Edited by El Rizzo, 25 April 2017 - 06:02 PM.


#13 MischiefSC

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:44 PM

The fundamental issue is that the quirks were put into place to help offset the built 'quirks' that come with good hitboxes, good hardpoints and good core stats (like the KDKs ability to take a 400XL vs the Atlas being functionally required to take a STD engine or the TBR having all the best Clan stuff built in while the Summoner gets crappy Ferro and no Endo and terrible hardpoint options.

We had bad mech balance for years which is what led to quirks to begin with. Eliminating quirks and then letting everyone, good and bad mechs, just buy the exact same quirks with the exact same amount of currency available just means the 'bar' is raised; everything gets quirks at the same level now. The result being that the exact same defects that justified quirks before are now back as though quirks never happened.

It's no different than if the skill tree never happened and all mechs just lost their quirks. What would that play like?

#14 R Valentine

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:51 PM

Why are there so many quirk nerfs? In fact, why are there quirk nerfs at all? The skill tree replaces modules and skills, things ALL mechs had. It does nothing to replace quirks. Those were unique to mechs for a reason. Nerfing those nerfs those mechs. We have essentially blanket IS nerfs with a few clan nerfs here and there. Mechs without quirks actually made large gains. Even the TimberWolf made gains. Meanwhile, the Thunderbolt had HUGE nerfs. The Night Gyr has absolutely no nerfs. What in the hell are you smoking PGI? Nerfing the Thud while leaving the Meta Gyr untouched? What is this garbage? Send it back. We don't want it anymore.

#15 ForceUser

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:53 PM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 25 April 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Why are there so many quirk nerfs? In fact, why are there quirk nerfs at all? The skill tree replaces modules and skills, things ALL mechs had. It does nothing to replace quirks. Those were unique to mechs for a reason. Nerfing those nerfs those mechs. We have essentially blanket IS nerfs with a few clan nerfs here and there. Mechs without quirks actually made large gains. Even the TimberWolf made gains. Meanwhile, the Thunderbolt had HUGE nerfs. The Night Gyr has absolutely no nerfs. What in the hell are you smoking PGI? Nerfing the Thud while leaving the Meta Gyr untouched? What is this garbage? Send it back. We don't want it anymore.

Probably because we're getting new tech in a couple of months.

#16 R Valentine

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:15 PM

View PostForceUser, on 25 April 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Probably because we're getting new tech in a couple of months.


Which could do anything, including make us worse. Even if it was majorly awesome, I don't want to suck for months just because PGI can't be bothered to balance things correctly in the mean time. Do we really need 2 more months of even more clan meta than we had before? That's stupid as all hell.

#17 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:12 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

If the goal was to increase TTK, then the top performers should be brought down, not the underperformers.

it seems like over preforming mechs, like the TBR NTG got Agility Nerfs so that seems like how they are balancing this,
only time will tell if these Agility nerfs to this will be enough to balance everything, i have hopes, but im not 100% sure,

#18 Maurice Thorez

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:19 PM

This is my main concern from the first iteration of the Skill Tree PTS and it is really my only one left.

At least with the structure/armour values skill nodes being able to attain the same values from the first PTS run(before they were cut in half) some IS mechs with high durability quirks can arguably hold their ground despite weapon quirk reductions.

2 examples:

The HBK-4SP has 80 something odd CT structure. This will be the equivalent or even higher than most assaults have even after filling out all the structure bonus nodes

All Vindicators should be able to attain around 90 or more CT armour also.

All these mechs of course take significant offensive quirk reductions from the -20% missile cooldown for the HBK-4SP to -15% ballistic cooldown for the VND-1X. So they will play substantially differently by being much weaker offensively, but also be much tankier than they already are on the live server

#19 Kuaron

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:35 PM

As long as there are no better options, there is no way around negative quirks for currently well performing quirkless mechs, if one wants to nerf quirks at all.

#20 Maurice Thorez

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:40 PM

View PostKuaron, on 25 April 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

As long as there are no better options, there is no way around negative quirks for currently well performing quirkless mechs, if one wants to nerf quirks at all.


The only problem is that negative quirks are even more despised by the segment of the player population that already hates positive quirks and that is aguably spurring these changes by PGI in the first place. I remember the uproar over the negative quirks on some TBR pods despite them never deposing it from its' throne of best heavy in the game at the time.

I mean what would have been the quickest way to nerf the UAC boating and PPC/Gauss meta bulds from the KDK-3 without affecting overall clan balance definitely could have been negative quirks. Some combination of PPC/ballistic velocity reductions and maybe increased UAC jam chance could have done it. I think there would have been quite the revolt over that though.

Edited by Maurice Thorez, 25 April 2017 - 10:44 PM.






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