9 replies to this topic

[SteelHoves]

so just got through loading the new PTS. I am very disappointed overall. it feels like all the positive feed back has been ignored. It feels PGI is missing the point of Skill and Module refunds and the whole idea of a skill tree in a complex game like MWO.

First off lets look at the refund process. The new PTS introduces a bunch of new Items. GSP HSP HXP Etc. All very confusing. i have had to read threw the notes several times to come to grips with all the new Points i will have to deal with. This is a lot of clutter that does not need to be. Clean this up PGI. why we have more than just XP and GXP especially when u give us a refund ledger with how we are being refunded confounds me. I also feel Modules should be refunded for C-Bills. They were purchased with them and should be refunded as such. No GSP or any other nonsense. I do like how finally my Mastered and Elited mechs will get there SP to bring them up to the equivalent or the new skill tree equivalent of their previous level.
I personally will be getting based on the PTS :
Refund from Modules GSP = 14,956 or based on 91 pts per mech 164 mechs worth of SP.
Refund from Pilot Nodes = 363,000 GXP so another 5 mechs worth of mastery
now mind you i already have 350,000 GXP in the bank so another 4 almost 5 mechs mastered.
Add on top of all of this out of my 140+ mechs 95% are fully mastered so they will all be getting 91 SP already. Some of those mechs such as my Black Widow have just under 1 million XP. This makes giving me GSP a waste and i assume there more people like me out there.
On to the Skill trees. First off they are very cluttered. For example the firepower tree has 73 nodes. it is still annoying to go through it. the skills that have SP put in them are nice and brightly lit while the surround available skills have color but its to the point where its barley visible. this makes it hard to follow. slight improvement over the previous version but still needs work.
Half of the trees are quite useless and i am upset i am forced to take things i dont want for some things i do want. In the live Skill tree i get things i dont want but in the end i get all the skills. In the PTS i need to make sacrifices of getting things i do want because of things i dont want blocking those SP . Good example is the mobility tree and arm pitch blocking speed tweak. Example a large number of my mechs dont have arm weapons and zero or very very low arm armor. Forcing me to waste some of my limited SP on arm pitch that does zero for me is bad skill tree design. Once again i would have zero problem being forced to take arm pitch if it didn't mean i have to sacrifice some where else. IE live is better here.
PGI and people have this false impression the new Skill tree promotes roles and promotes mechs not to boat. I highly disagree with this based on the fact there is more SP location than available SP to spend. Mechs who Boat a single weapon system will get a numerical advantage in SP over mech who dont specialize.
The new Firepower tree also heavily favors clan mechs. You will be giving access of skills to mechs who currently do not have access to them. Clan laser mechs getting Duration reduction is a huge buff to those mechs. The High alpha ebon for example doesn't care much about cool down or heat get. Duration makes those mechs do more damage in less time and more pinpoint. same goes to a lesser extent ballistic velocity. K3 kodiak gets buffs night gyr dakka gets buffed. Maybe this wouldn't be so pronounced if you were not removing tons of quirks on mechs who need quirks to compete with mechs like the EBJ or Timber who have none or some negative quirks.
Currently in MWO you have Meta or top Mechs who perform that way do to hit box design and mount number/location. Now on top of this you have a Meta for those Meta mechs. IE a specific build that maximizes that mech. with the new skill tree you have added a 3rd meta to the mix. now you have top mech with top build and top skill tree build. there will only be 2 or maybe 3 different good ways to skill out 99% of the mechs out there. this makes it harder to do non meta things in non meta mechs. you are by adding more choices narrowing the meta. the current skill tree doesn't do this and i hope PGI will maybe see that. the current Tree doesnt favor a mech or a build everyone is equal here. that is what PGI should strive for in the new SKILL TREE design.

Edited by SteelHoves, 27 April 2017 - 07:12 PM.

[King Chimera]

I agree that you shouldn't just get GXP from module refunds, you should get both the GXP and c-bills used for it. The skill trees also seem to have so little bearing on my weaponry and jumpjets that I may as well just improve my cooling, mobility, sensors, armor, and make weaponry and afterthought. Additionally, while I do like being able to increase the armor of my Dragon's CT even more, I feel like the more tanky mechs are just gonna soak up more damage whilst the lighter, faster ones get the short end of the stick.

I also agree that this is going to help out clan laser vomit a lot more than it is the IS mechs. In fact the boosts from getting every laser duration was so pitiful for my Large Pulse Lasers that I reallocated all of the burn time skills elsewhere. Granted they ARE pulse lasers, but I still shouldn't be taking off a mere 0.02 seconds from burn duration with heavy investment.

Honestly I don't think the skill system or weapon quirks are even necessary after the civil war update introduces new tech to try and make the IS even with the Clans.

[ForceUser]

You don't get GXP from module refunds, you get GSP.

Every 45k Cbills spent on modules gives you a Skill point you can spend on any mech you own or will ever own along with free 800XP that you did not have to earn.

Edited by ForceUser, 25 April 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[SteelHoves]

ok so playing around more with the PTS. Non top tier mechs seem to be similar or more sluggish while some top tier mechs are the same or slightly more agile feeling vs live. The more i play with the tree and its 240+ nodes the more i am confident i wont be playing if it goes live as is. It gives you the perceived notion of choice but in reality there is no choice just what is the least bad option for getting important skills.

In general filler skills or nodes do little to change the performance of mechs. Black widow for example with 22 points wasted in the Mobility tree to get all the speed tweak nodes nets me 3 deg/s accel 3 deg/s to decel 7 deg/s to turn rate and 3 deg/s for torso turn rate. Basically i cant feel a difference from those small gains vs 0 points in the tree. I am forced to take 17 nodes for Speed tweak (speed tweak is noticeable improvement vs non) for little to no tangible agility/mobility improvement. Simply put the mech just doesn't feel any more agile.

The firepower tree, survival ETC all feel the same. there are a hand full of skill nodes that give tangible improvement with a lot of filler nodes adding very little to zero tangible improvement.

I personally like to play aggressive brawling mechs. In general these mechs need to be quick and agile with good DPS and heat control. The Skill tree combined with engine decoupling is a direct nerf to my preferred play style. In the live servers if my mech feels a little sluggish i can always adjust weapons, ammo etc to fit a larger engine to improve that. Here with the new tree i am basically stuck with what every PGI deems the mech was made for. So if the negligible gains i get from the mobility tree don't improve my agility i'm stuck.
Decoupling engines Nerfing cool down and heat related skills or placing those behind huge skill point sinks only go to reinforce the High alpha, POP Tart and PPFLD meta that is already strangling the game. Smart and competitive players will move to playing more peak and poke mechs. QP matches will be longer and more stagnant. there will be less movement and more hiding and shooting from cover. From a Balance stand point clan mechs will see some improvement from the tree. Big alpha MAD IIC, EBJ and even laser vomit builds will put out the same damage or more vs live . Those mechs are least affected by cool down nerf or heat cooling nerfs. As long as they can alpha and hide they remain unchanged play style wise. A side note Laser duration improves Laser vomit/High alpha laser builds a lot. Clan mechs that currently do not have quirks will have access to this skill allowing them to do those alphas in less time and more pin point. Uac Jam chance and velocity to a lesser extent will help Dakka Gyrs and K3 kodiaks. those mechs have huge burst potential vs the more DPS oriented AC5/UAC5 IS mechs. All of this throws what little balance we have not to the wind.

As for the UI its a nightmare. Very confusing with all the XP SP and what ever else PGI has put into. so many windows and sliders to have to play with just to be able to put those skill points in. Once you do fill out the skill tree you are left with a list a mile long of " quirks" on the mech windows and in some cases you cant even see the whole list. One of the worst offenders is the Magazine capacity. It alone adds 8 lines of Quirks to IS mechs and 14 lines to clan mechs. Overall the Menus/UI feels rushed and clumsy. For this alone PGI should not launch the tree.

Edited by SteelHoves, 27 April 2017 - 08:05 PM.

[Pr8Dator2]

SteelHoves, on 27 April 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

ok so playing around more with the PTS. Non top tier mechs seem to be similar or more sluggish while some top tier mechs are the same or slightly more agile feeling vs live. The more i play with the tree and its 240+ nodes the more i am confident i wont be playing if it goes live as is. It gives you the perceived notion of choice but in reality there is no choice just what is the least bad option for getting important skills.

In general filler skills or nodes do little to change the performance of mechs. Black widow for example with 22 points wasted in the Mobility tree to get all the speed tweak nodes nets me 3 deg/s accel 3 deg/s to decel 7 deg/s to turn rate and 3 deg/s for torso turn rate. Basically i cant feel a difference from those small gains vs 0 points in the tree. I am forced to take 17 nodes for Speed tweak (speed tweak is noticeable improvement vs non) for little to no tangible agility/mobility improvement. Simply put the mech just doesn't feel any more agile.

The firepower tree, survival ETC all feel the same. there are a hand full of skill nodes that give tangible improvement with a lot of filler nodes adding very little to zero tangible improvement.

I personally like to play aggressive brawling mechs. In general these mechs need to be quick and agile with good DPS and heat control. The Skill tree combined with engine decoupling is a direct nerf to my preferred play style. In the live servers if my mech feels a little sluggish i can always adjust weapons, ammo etc to fit a larger engine to improve that. Here with the new tree i am basically stuck with what every PGI deems the mech was made for. So if the negligible gains i get from the mobility tree don't improve my agility i'm stuck.
Decoupling engines Nerfing cool down and heat related skills or placing those behind huge skill point sinks only go to reinforce the High alpha, POP Tart and PPFLD meta that is already strangling the game. Smart and competitive players will move to playing more peak and poke mechs. QP matches will be longer and more stagnant. there will be less movement and more hiding and shooting from cover. From a Balance stand point clan mechs will see some improvement from the tree. Big alpha MAD IIC, EBJ and even laser vomit builds will put out the same damage or more vs live . Those mechs are least affected by cool down nerf or heat cooling nerfs. As long as they can alpha and hide they remain unchanged play style wise. A side note Laser duration improves Laser vomit/High alpha laser builds a lot. Clan mechs that currently do not have quirks will have access to this skill allowing them to do those alphas in less time and more pin point. Uac Jam chance and velocity to a lesser extent will help Dakka Gyrs and K3 kodiaks. those mechs have huge burst potential vs the more DPS oriented AC5/UAC5 IS mechs. All of this throws what little balance we have not to the wind.

As for the UI its a nightmare. Very confusing with all the XP SP and what ever else PGI has put into. so many windows and sliders to have to play with just to be able to put those skill points in. Once you do fill out the skill tree you are left with a list a mile long of " quirks" on the mech windows and in some cases you cant even see the whole list. One of the worst offenders is the Magazine capacity. It alone adds 8 lines of Quirks to IS mechs and 14 lines to clan mechs. Overall the Menus/UI feels rushed and clumsy. For this alone PGI should not launch the tree.

What you said is EXACTLY why this needs to be implemented!! You need to be fast, agile, high DPS... hey, you are not the only player with thatt idea and that has led to the insane power creep in this game so far! Fights lasting less than 3 seconds, every mistake punished mercilessly, this has made a game that is extremely unfriendly for less veteran or casual players! A global nerf of speed and DPS is what this game needs now BEFORE the new and more powerful weapons hit the line!!! u only think of your own selfish little mechs and failed to see the big picture!

[SteelHoves]

its obvious you miss the point. the new tree, engine decoupling and Quirk nerf makes a small amount of mechs more viable over the majority of mechs. Most of those mechs are already the most powerful thus pushing power creep in their favor. You think by stacking your points in armor and structure you will be able to make mistakes with out being punished but your wrong. In general you are less agile on the PTS unless you play specific mechs. thus if you make the same mistakes you make on live you will be just as punished if not worse. TTK has not gone up in PTS period. The tops mechs with decent pilots still kill you in a matter of seconds. Heck some of those mechs need less time because that 68 point alpha to ur XL torso is now 10% faster so u can spread less damage. OH and you cant twist the damage or move out of the way as fast because you are no longer as agile. Game moves more and more to long range High alpha POP tart PPFLD and more static confrontations. If you enjoy this type of thing i am happy for you but alas i do not.

[Cy Mitchell]

Even the Clan Mechs that did not have quirks had quirks. The old Skill Tree provided quirks to every Mech in the game. The new Skill Tree does the same. I am not able to reach the same level of heat efficiency on my Clan Mechs with this Skill Tree as I was with the old Skill Tree.

The tree is not meant as a means to balance Mechs or IS vs Clan. I had hoped it would be but that is not a goal that PGI set for it. It is meant to set a solid baseline for future balancing efforts.

If I was you then I would stick around at least until the Civil War weapons hit. IS will pretty much gain carbon copies of most of the Clan tech plus some new and interesting additions like MRMs, LFEs and RACs. One of the Devs working on the Skill Tree and balance has stated that it is what it is because values were set with an eye on the coming Tech. Surly, you can hang on for one more month to see?

[Nightmare1]

@OP: That is a formidable wall of text. Try using the ENTER key to break it up a bit and to make it easier to decipher.

[SteelHoves]

i understand PGI might not have the goal of balance in mind with the skill tree. It is the combination of 3 things that are making the Skill tree PTS more unbalanced. I am not a fan of decoupling engines with agility at the same time you removed large quantities of Quirks while dropping a new skill tree that adds more skill quirks to mechs who don't need them to be top performers.

The current skill system does add buffs to all mechs but it adds them equally across the field. there is no way for a mastered Timber to have a different skill build than a mastered black knight. With the proposed skill tree it is quit possible for a player to stuff 91 points into terrible skills or even skill that the mech he is piloting cant use. what the new tree does like all trees that have options is generate a meta. players will be forced into a very select way of building that tree out for 90+% of their mechs if they wish to be competitive. It is good at giving the illusion of choice and customization when in reality there is very little.

As for the civil war stuff its the same line PGI has had since day one. Next patch, next mech ,FW v4.1 etc you name it. always the same tune just wait till whats coming next. They have had years to try and balance the game with the current weapon load and by all accounts have failed at getting IS vs Clan balance right. Now they will dump double the amount of weapon into the game at one shot. Based on previous unavailing it will be riddled with problems and balance issues and most likely feel rushed/ half baked. People think the skill tree is problematic civil war will be worse.
i have a week or so of active premium time left and once it ends i will be taking a break. i will keep an eye on whats going on with the Skill tree etc patch and if goes live like it was on this PTS i will be asking for refunds on the remaining mechs and packs i have left on pre order.

Edited by SteelHoves, 28 April 2017 - 07:18 PM.

[Slambot]

I think we need to wait till the system actually goes live...I do agree that larger mechs tend to benefit more than smaller ones... Boats tend to benefit more than hybrids... mediums and lights losing agility means they lose viability...some adjustments will have to be made... did some test runs in a locust and it is nowhere near as agile as it currently is in live but it is faster.... Time was ripe for a change...