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91 Skills Is Just Too Many


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#1 CapperDeluxe

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:33 AM

I know it's hard to quantify what the "correct" number of skills should be, but having to allocate 91 for mastery makes the process of skilling out a mech seem more complex than it should be for a video game.

What if instead the total number to master was a cool round number like 50? To accommodate that change the number of nodes would need to also be decreased, and the individual node % increased to have similar affect with fewer nodes.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 26 April 2017 - 05:33 AM.


#2 Ced Riggs

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:37 AM

Diablo II had 100. Don't get me started on Path of Exile, or Skyforge. You'd probably die in Neverwinter Nights, where you could get upwards of 10 skill points per level, with 40 levels as the cap. So, no, 91 isn't too many for a videogame.

#3 CapperDeluxe

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:41 AM

View PostCed Riggs, on 26 April 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

Diablo II had 100. Don't get me started on Path of Exile, or Skyforge. You'd probably die in Neverwinter Nights, where you could get upwards of 10 skill points per level, with 40 levels as the cap. So, no, 91 isn't too many for a videogame.


But didn't Diablo II let you just increase a single skill node beyond just one point? That way it didn't look like a large mess of a tree like we have here.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 26 April 2017 - 05:41 AM.


#4 Ced Riggs

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:46 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 26 April 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

But didn't Diablo II let you just increase a single skill node beyond just one point?
As you can see here, I would love for MWO's skill tree to get single nodes that can be increased incremententally.

#5 50 50

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:55 AM

I agree, but for reasons of balance.

91 points is like taking our existing mechs and strapping 8 modules onto them.
It makes bad mechs better but makes good mechs monsters.

It will hurt to drop it to 50 as we will really notice it. But for some mechs to gain some more parity, it may be the answer as it will really force serious choices and therefore have serious consequences.
If those 'Uber' mechs want to be the deadly tough as nails weapon platforms, they can, but they will have terrible mobility, sensors and all those other things.
If we want mechs to be more defined by roles, we have to change how capable we can allow each mech to be.

Drop it to 50 and lets try it.
IF anything, it's easier to allow more points once live instead of taking them away.

#6 Excalibaard

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:14 AM

91 points is too many indeed. especially with the small amount of change you can eventually make (as the battlefield should remain 'balanced' between unskilled and skilled mechs), it just gets dumbed down to decimals of percentages, which is hardly noticable. I've described the problem in my own thread as well:

https://mwomercs.com...he-tree-layout/

#7 Kiran Yagami

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:18 AM

View PostCed Riggs, on 26 April 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

Diablo II had 100. Don't get me started on Path of Exile, or Skyforge. You'd probably die in Neverwinter Nights, where you could get upwards of 10 skill points per level, with 40 levels as the cap. So, no, 91 isn't too many for a videogame.


Seriously? No one holds POE as the golden standard. That passive skill system is a mess. We're going from having a system you can't get wrong to having one that's bats**t crazy. That's the wrong direction.

#8 Excalibaard

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:22 AM

PoE is a lot better structured than all the equal-size hexes on PTS.

PoE has a TON of skill paths you can take, but at least each non-web connection node is nicely clustered into 1 big 'supernode'. All the hexes in MWO are a mess and it's extremely difficult to see which direction you need to take to your preferred skills.

#9 JerzyBlaster

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:44 AM

MWO, I think there are too many different skill trees. You all could have and should have simplified it and maybe just added more skills to the existing skill trees. e.g. 10 for basic, 10 for mastery and the last could have been 5 for "elite" (25 in total). Each player would have been able to select 7 of each basic and mastery and 3 of elite. You would have a less complicated mess with too many people getting upset or quit.

It will take me months to "fill in the blanks" for all the mechs I own and like to play and I just don't feel like it. So now (for me) you have forced me to pick 5-7 mechs to play and all the gx,p sp, or what ever name you want to give it will go to waste.

#10 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:17 AM

View PostCed Riggs, on 26 April 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

Diablo II had 100. Don't get me started on Path of Exile, or Skyforge. You'd probably die in Neverwinter Nights, where you could get upwards of 10 skill points per level, with 40 levels as the cap. So, no, 91 isn't too many for a videogame.


How many player characters do you have to manage in those games? Because I have over 300 mechs, with more coming every month. That's a lot of clicking.

#11 Dee Eight

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:54 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 26 April 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

How many player characters do you have to manage in those games? Because I have over 300 mechs, with more coming every month. That's a lot of clicking.


Except once you start clicking... your brain remembers where every node is on the tree and you can auto-pilot the mouse directly to where you want to go. For most of my mechs, its the same 11 nodes in the auxillary tree EVERY time... do that first...done. To "tune" three KDK-3s...each with different weapon & engine builds... took 15 minutes total.

#12 CommEE

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:59 PM

The current number of clicks to master a mech is 15 (10 basics, 4 elites, 1 master).

The proposed system takes more that 6 times that. I like that we are given options, but the number of nodes available and skill points needed to reach mastery should be scaled back.

#13 suit1337

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 01:53 PM

View PostCed Riggs, on 26 April 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

Diablo II had 100. Don't get me started on Path of Exile, or Skyforge. You'd probably die in Neverwinter Nights, where you could get upwards of 10 skill points per level, with 40 levels as the cap. So, no, 91 isn't too many for a videogame.


Correct me, if i'm wrong - but in Diablo you have a few Characters you play with and not 50 or more.

If you have, for example, multiple identical mechs for FP/CW (which is not uncommon) you have to skill every single one of them. Currently you have to basically click on 8 skills + 1 mastery per Chassis - in the future you have to make 91 choices per mech. Sounds like an Overkill to me.

#14 50 50

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:13 PM

View PostCommEE, on 26 April 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The current number of clicks to master a mech is 15 (10 basics, 4 elites, 1 master).

The proposed system takes more that 6 times that. I like that we are given options, but the number of nodes available and skill points needed to reach mastery should be scaled back.

Not quite.
You had to confirm if you wanted to spend mech XP or GXP and I think there is then a confirmation click as well.
So maybe 30 or 45?
Maybe not as much as 91 clicks, but many people find the whole 'yes I clicked it' confirmation thing pretty annoying.

#15 suit1337

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:17 PM

i was not talking about 91 clicks, i was talking about 91 skills

the System is way to granular to be usefull - before you had 8 (or 9) generic skills + very granular weapon modules - now we have hundreds of very granular skills which we can choose 91 from - though the tree Needs basically mandatory branching, thats why the Illusion of free choice is basically gone, so we are at what we were before: everyone has the same "8" Basic skills and a few others to pick from, but way more complicated and intransparent

#16 MookieDog

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:26 PM

Drop below 50? 90 too many? Please put your bong down. I cant even get a Marauder-3R in 2.0 back to what I currently play in. Lets see: hill climb you must take... laser duration.. must take... nerf on the heat scale.. must take. Do I want I want good lasers or good dakka its one or the other. I am glad I dont have a Marauder 5D and have both missiles and jump jets. Or.. I can do the 5M only jump jets and dakka and lasers. This issue can be applied to any mech in the IS which has more than one type of weapon system. Unlike...

But if I was a clanner and decided to laser boat this is the tree (shrub) for me. Hello Onmipods.I want Night Gyr dakka, easy switch. The player just needs to buy two if they want to laserboat from that platform. So basically the clanners just need to grind 8 mechs and boat that particular weapons platform.

IS can do it.. but most of our specialty mechs have been nerfed due to over performance.. Warhammer, Black Knight, Quickdraws, and the list goes on..

So the idea of 50 points on the skill tree... ya keep playing with your supermechs and clubbing the noobs and drive away more of the already small playerbase.

#17 Pinkie Pie

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:44 PM

91 is way too much, I think it should be closer to 1/4th that.
https://mwomercs.com...grades-edition/
And rather than copy what I said on the matter, I'll just link it.

#18 oldradagast

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:57 PM

They've clearly learned nothing.

We went over this last time - we don't need 91 shades of grind in a skill maze. GRIND is NOT CONTENT.

All they need to do is create a handful of roles - things like; Brawler, Fire Support, Scout / Stealth, and Skirmisher - with about 20 skills in each role with no gated skills - pick whatever you want. You pick 1 role per mech and 12 skills active at any given time, and that's it. You can eventually unlock all roles and skills, and there's no respec cost for changing them, but you can't have them all active at any time. Finally, display the role on a given mech on your team next to it when you press "Tab" to see your team.

Amazing - instant "role warfare" and more useful team information to plan your battles.

But this would be too easy, and somebody at PGI is in love with the tangled skill maze grindfest, probably thinking they'll earn a ton of money from people buying premium time to regrind their mechs or some crap. It's not going to happen.

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 26 April 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:


But didn't Diablo II let you just increase a single skill node beyond just one point? That way it didn't look like a large mess of a tree like we have here.


Yes, it did, but that game dates from about 2000, and PGI isn't there yet in game development terms. Give them 10 years or so.

Edited by oldradagast, 26 April 2017 - 02:56 PM.


#19 MookieDog

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 03:21 PM

View PostPinkie Pie, on 26 April 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

91 is way too much, I think it should be closer to 1/4th that.
https://mwomercs.com...grades-edition/
And rather than copy what I said on the matter, I'll just link it.


Thats your opinion.

#20 Dee Eight

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:13 PM

First world gamer entitlement problems...complains about clicking a mouse 91 times... but types out several thousand key strokes to complain about having to click the mouse....





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