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Engine Decoupling Is Going Unnoticed


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#1 Commander James Raynor

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:12 AM

So I wanted to compare the torso twist speeds of my mechs in the live server and the PTS, with engine decoupling, and these are the results:

https://www.dropbox....rison.xlsx?dl=0
https://scontent.fsc...f5b&oe=598E5977

I made it just with twist speed because it's a very important agility measure and because the acceleration in the live server is not clearly shown, and it's a function of current speed instead of a fixed value, so it's harder to compare, but for what I was able to gather from a quick look, it behaves in sort of the same way as the torso twist speed, so I'd say you could use the last one as a proxy. These numbers are from mechs without any bonuses, be it from the old skill system or the new skill tree. It includes only the mechs I own, since making a complete analysis would be too time consuming.

Anyway... as you can see from the sheet, most mechs are receiving a decrease in their agility. That will be specially true for people not investing points in the mobility tree, since you would go from the old values with the old system bonuses to the new values without any bonuses. The biggest losers under then new system are the KGC, the KDK and, surprisingly, the MDD.

It is my opinion that these changes are too big to be ignored, since they will impact the game at least as much as the skill tree will. Furthermore, the way in which the values were set seems arbitrary. I know it wasn't arbitrary, but it sure looks that way. For example: why would a 90 ton mech (Cyclops) be so much more agile than an 85 ton mech (MAD IIC). Wasn't it supposed to be based on weight? And what's the deal nerfing the MDD so hard? Was anyone complaining about it? It's not an OP mech by any measurements, but now it is clumsier than so many heavier mechs, like the Grasshopper, Cyclops, Zeus, and Black Knight. What possible reason would there be for that? And the KGC... it was pretty slow and clumsy before, and now it's going to be worse. I never heard anyone sayin it needed a nerf, specially when it comes to agility. Under the new system, it will be a 100 tons mech which is REALLY not worth its weight. Actually, no 100 tons mech will be worth its weight, since it will be so much easier to take them appart before they can twist to get you. Why the hate on the heavier mechs, when other lighter assaults are pretty much untouched or buffed? I know my math, and I know those values are not proportional to the tonnage, not by a long shot.

Edited by Commander James Raynor, 26 April 2017 - 07:13 AM.


#2 Ruar

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:12 AM

The decoupling will hit assaults and heavies much more than lights. In fact it should help bring some balance back to the lights because the big guys won't be able to torso twist or spin as fast.

I agree that decoupling should have happened separate from the skill tree. It would have been great to test decoupling two weeks ago and then skill tree now, but oh well. However, the decoupling concept seems solid and the only question is whether or not they implemented it correctly without any bugs.

#3 Monkey Lover

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:49 AM

View PostSource Mystic, on 26 April 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Engine Decoupling AND TAKING OUT ACCELERATION/DE-ACCELERATION QUIRKS TOGETHER IS ABSURD.


2 x THE SLOW 2 X THE NERF = SUCCESS IN PGI EYES


IF THE LIGHTS WERE BAD OFF BEFORE THE ASSAULTS AND HEAVY'S WILL EAT WELL NOW.

. [/size]


Most of the quirks from what I can tell are still there . They just moved them. Like I said in a other post. Highland2c had a 45% acc quirk. It's now at around 20 acc. Supernova of the same tonnage only had a 10%(as I remember) quirk and its affiliates is now 11ish.

I will agree with you this will hurt a lot of lights as they run max engines most the time. They're going to have to buff them.

#4 Ruar

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:55 AM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Most of the quirks from what I can tell are still there . They just moved them. Like I said in a other post. Highland2c had a 45% acc quirk. It's now at around 20 acc. Supernova of the same tonnage only had a 10%(as I remember) quirk and its affiliates is now 11ish.

I will agree with you this will hurt a lot of lights as they run max engines most the time. They're going to have to buff them.


They are changing the default agility based on weight instead of tying it to engine. Which means lights don't have to run big engines to be agile, they'll have it from the beginning. Look at the video of the urbanmech with 60 engine and see how the before and after compare.

For some reason there is a myth floating around that decoupling means lights all of a sudden have crap agility when the truth is they will have the best agility as a baseline independent of engine while the heavies and assaults will have the worst agility as a baseline that can't be improved with engine.

#5 BlueFlames

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:12 AM

What I don't get is that PGI is unsatisfied with TTK being as fast as it is, so they're going to encourage people to take smaller engines and more guns (since we all run nearly max armor all the time anyway).

How is that supposed to work again?

#6 Ruar

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:15 AM

View PostBlueFlames, on 26 April 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

What I don't get is that PGI is unsatisfied with TTK being as fast as it is, so they're going to encourage people to take smaller engines and more guns (since we all run nearly max armor all the time anyway).

How is that supposed to work again?


I think you'll find the changes to heat dissipation are such that taking more guns won't be a great option either. You are also ignoring how the skill tree can be used to buff weak areas which will make decisions like engine size or additional armor have more relevance.

#7 Monkey Lover

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:20 AM

View PostRuar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:


They are changing the default agility based on weight instead of tying it to engine. Which means lights don't have to run big engines to be agile, they'll have it from the beginning. Look at the video of the urbanmech with 60 engine and see how the before and after compare.

For some reason there is a myth floating around that decoupling means lights all of a sudden have crap agility when the truth is they will have the best agility as a baseline independent of engine while the heavies and assaults will have the worst agility as a baseline that can't be improved with engine.


For me when I pilot a light there is a sweet spot around 130kph+. if I don't get over this I can't outrun the mechs twisting and maybe even something to do with hitreg. So if I ever have to go slower than this I would run say an added and just go for firepower.
So it will hurt the way I pilot lights but maybe not everyone you are correct.

#8 Ruar

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:23 AM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

For me when I pilot a light there is a sweet spot around 130kph+. if I don't get over this I can't outrun the mechs twisting and maybe even something to do with hitreg. So if I ever have to go slower than this I would run say an added and just go for firepower.
So it will hurt the way I pilot lights but maybe not everyone you are correct.


I'm confused. You will still be able to get an engine that lets you go 130+ if you want. The difference is if you were to get a smaller engine your agility would be just the same as with the bigger engine. So how does decoupling change your engine choice for top speed?

#9 Monkey Lover

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:56 AM

View PostRuar, on 26 April 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:


I'm confused. You will still be able to get an engine that lets you go 130+ if you want. The difference is if you were to get a smaller engine your agility would be just the same as with the bigger engine. So how does decoupling change your engine choice for top speed?


Basically everyone who runs lights run engines to keep a speed over 130. Any light with this engine "today" will have less agility when the patch comes out at the same speed.

Only a few lights will fell better or the same, ie kitfox/adder.

For most people this is a nerf to lights. Just as its a nerf to most people running kdk as its standard to run a 380-400xl.

Everyone should test for themselves on the pts. Im finding lights(fast) are much worse but my slow assaults are much better :)

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 April 2017 - 11:58 AM.


#10 Ruar

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:02 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:


Basically everyone who runs lights run engines to keep a speed over 130. Any light with this engine "today" will have less agility when the patch comes out at the same speed.

Only a few lights will fell better or the same, ie kitfox/adder.

For most people this is a nerf to lights. Just as its a nerf to most people running kdk as its standard to run a 380-400xl.

Everyone should test for themselves on the pts. Im finding lights(fast) are much worse but my slow assaults are much better Posted Image


You have test data that shows the new agility baseline causes lights to be less responsive compared to when they were running large engines? I know I haven't seen any data to support that theory and I've only seen people guessing what will be the results. I'd do the testing myself but I don't run lights so I have no experience to determine how the mech feels pre and post changes.

If you have tested then please post your testing methodology so it can be repeated by others to verify.

#11 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:09 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Basically everyone who runs lights run engines to keep a speed over 130. Any light with this engine "today" will have less agility when the patch comes out at the same speed.

Which is bad, lights needed to have a higher baseline than stock engines unlike heavies and assaults which could roughly be in that position. That and the turn rate nerf across the board still makes me confused.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2017 - 12:11 PM.


#12 Monkey Lover

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:12 PM

View PostRuar, on 26 April 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:


You have test data that shows the new agility baseline causes lights to be less responsive compared to when they were running large engines? I know I haven't seen any data to support that theory and I've only seen people guessing what will be the results. I'd do the testing myself but I don't run lights so I have no experience to determine how the mech feels pre and post changes.

If you have tested then please post your testing methodology so it can be repeated by others to verify.


Only pgi can really test this and compare the match score of thousands of matches .

Its easy to see they're less agile running them around the city. They turn less, they speed up slower and stop slower.

But all weight classes are getting nerfed so does the assault nerfs make up for the light nerfs? I can say in 4v4 lights would be hurting, I have a :feeling: even in 12v12 but im not sure.

I would put my money on a meta change back to sniper lights.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 April 2017 - 12:14 PM.


#13 naterist

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:16 PM

i think lights just benefit more from the agility tree then other mechs. fully up the agility and skeletal. get in some heat management nodes and a few consumable nodes for support or sensor nodes for scouting. thats just the best thing for it to fully maximize it. lights have never been about weapons anyways, theyre dot. you cant skill it out like an atlas and expect it to work .like a light, which is one of the interesting things about this.

also, those OP mechs that are assaults that feel like big heavies will be brought back in line with other mechs their size and class (lookin at you mad2c, kodiaks, and battlemasters).

Edited by naterist, 26 April 2017 - 12:17 PM.


#14 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:17 PM

View Postnaterist, on 26 April 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

you cant skill it out like an atlas and expect it to work

Not sure why you think the Atlas won't take the exact same skills....he may not bother with speed tweak, but all the other mobility skills and durability skills are just as important to assaults. Same with the heat containment and cool run skills, just as important, and the same with auxiliary skills for double UAV, double coolshot.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2017 - 12:19 PM.


#15 Ruar

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:19 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Not sure why you think the Atlas won't take the exact same skills....


You can, but it won't have the same value as those skills on a light. Just like a light taking a bunch of firepower skills for their three med lasers won't have as much value as an Atlas taking them for his arsenal.

#16 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:20 PM

View PostRuar, on 26 April 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Just like a light taking a bunch of firepower skills for their three med lasers won't have as much value as an Atlas taking them for his arsenal.

Taking a bunch of firepower skills on an Atlas will be the exact same waste because of how deep you have to go into the tree to get enough useful skills. The most important firepower skills aren't even in the firepower tree, they are in operations or whatever (heat containment and cool run).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2017 - 12:21 PM.


#17 naterist

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:20 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Not sure why you think the Atlas won't take the exact same skills....he may not bother with speed tweak, but all the other mobility skills and durability skills are just as important to assaults. Same with the heat containment and cool run skills, just as important, and the same with auxiliary skills for double UAV, double coolshot.


id rather use those skills to make sure my atlas doesnt overheat after the third alpha. its already a boss basic'd when its positioning turns out good.

#18 Monkey Lover

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:21 PM

View Postnaterist, on 26 April 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

i think lights just benefit more from the agility tree then other mechs. fully up the agility and skeletal. get in some heat management nodes and a few consumable nodes for support or sensor nodes for scouting. thats just the best thing for it to fully maximize it. lights have never been about weapons anyways, theyre dot. you cant skill it out like an atlas and expect it to work .like a light, which is one of the interesting things about this.

also, those OP mechs that are assaults that feel like big heavies will be brought back in line with other mechs their size and class (lookin at you mad2c, kodiaks, and battlemasters).


agreed,

Armor on lights is all so a buff as for now they're not taking away any of these quirks.

If we look back to the arctic cheater when it came out it had a few armor quirks and it made it really op. So nodes here could be a big deal.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 April 2017 - 12:22 PM.


#19 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:23 PM

View Postnaterist, on 26 April 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

id rather use those skills to make sure my atlas doesnt overheat after the third alpha.

Again, that's why you take heat containment and cool run, otherwise you are taking mobility skills (to help you spread damage by twisting it away) and durability skills (obvious reasons) to ensure you even GET that third alpha. The problem with the Atlas isn't lack of firepower, it is surviving to get close enough to even use it.

That said, even mechs like the Kodiak and Whale which have longer ranged firepower will still take the same skills because the extra durability and mobility you get far outweighs anything you get from the stupid firepower tree outside of maybe the velocity skills.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2017 - 12:25 PM.


#20 Monkey Lover

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:24 PM

Atlas 4x6srm_heavy gauss and dont worry about heat Posted Image (hopefully there is 1 extra slot of case haha)

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 April 2017 - 12:26 PM.






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