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It's The Quirks, Stupid... [playtest discussion]


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#1 The Jerol

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:02 PM

First, some disclaimers. I'm still a relative noob, but I know how the game works and how it plays. I admit to not studying the latest iteration of the Skill Tree system in any great detail. I was told not to buy and elite 3 variants of the chassis I like to play as it wouldn't be necessary in the "new" system. And, of course, that new system never came so I have had to spend the C-bills I was hoarding for the new system in order to buy and elite/master the mechs I want to play now. Fine. That's actually been fun.

The arguments going on in the General Discussion forum over module refunds and what not are very passionate, but seem to me to be completely off base. It seems that most mastered mechs currently in your garage will still be mastered in the new system. There is only one issue that should matter: IS mech quirk removal.

IS mechs are already woefully underpowered. For every IS variant I enjoy playing -- and there are many -- there is a Clan variant that's just better. Period. In every way. They're faster, do more damage, have better range, better survivability with the Clan XL engine. The only thing that keeps IS mechs even remotely competitive is the Quirk system.

So in a proposed system where every mech has access to 91 skill points, nerfing the already underpowered IS mechs by removing their quirks is a mind-boggling decision on PGI's part. I really want to know how PGI intends to restore some semblance of balance to an already unbalanced system that will clearly be made worse by quirk removal.


TJ

#2 Tesunie

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:31 PM

View PostThe Jerol, on 26 April 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

I really want to know how PGI intends to restore some semblance of balance to an already unbalanced system that will clearly be made worse by quirk removal.


Well, here comes the question... What about all that new tech coming out in a few months?

Though, true, if that is the case than IS quirks shouldn't be rolled back until then.

I also believe that IS mechs get more "oomph" for their skills in several spots, such as duration skills.

Beyond that... I'd rather play it and see how it work before I knock it. Speaking of, I need to get on that test server soon...

#3 Void Angel

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:53 PM

The new tech isn't the question: it's the answer. PGI has chosen to re-balance the game by introducing new tech to offset one of the more subtle difficulties in balancing the Clans - more hammers. Now, the Clans also enjoy somewhat better hammers, which is a huge off-topic subject. But, they also have more hammers; more tools. This isn't an advantage in itself: having the best options far outweighs having any number of (for the sake of illustration) inferior substitutes. But the Inner Sphere's total lack of say, Streak-6 launchers, has to complicate balance.

Now, there's other issues: there's really no IS Light to match the Arctic Cheetah as a light hunter, for example - but the ability of Streak-6 boats to almost hard-counter any close-range Light build ads a powerful, if specialized, tool to the Clan arsenal. That's important, because you now have a confounding variable with far-reaching impact - it's crappy brawling with things its own size or larger, even though it can sandblast Lights down, so there's uneven interplay outside of just making Inner Sphere Lights perform well against their counterparts in the Clan stable.

Advancing the tech base will help with this, and gives PGI the opportunity to rebalance the entire weapon lineup while still delivering additional content that's been consistently asked for for some time. We'll have to see how it works out.

#4 The Jerol

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:04 PM

Okay, so the new skill tree system is a nerf to already underpowered IS mechs due to quirk removal.

And the balance will be (re)created, we are told, with the introduction of 3060 tech. With all the debate about module compensation, if this is true, one critically important fact has been overlooked: all current IS tech becomes obsolete the day 3060 tech becomes available. To be competitive in IS mechs after the skill tree goes live will require completely refitting nearly every piece of equipment with the new tech. Otherwise, you'll have an unquriked (or reduced quirk) mech with access to the exact same skill tree that Clan mechs have.

If there aren't significant improvements in IS weapon and engine tech, you have a catastrophe on your hands as the disparity between Clan and IS only increases with the new system -- again, due to quirk removal. And if 3060 tech is successful in balancing the game, the added cost to IS pilots should be considered in any compensation model.

#5 McHoshi

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:09 PM

Quirk Removing of IS Mechs in the new Skill Tree? Damn you but there are still Quirks on the IS Mechs left on the PTS.

#6 Tesunie

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:23 PM

View PostThe Jerol, on 27 April 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

Okay, so the new skill tree system is a nerf to already underpowered IS mechs due to quirk removal.

And the balance will be (re)created, we are told, with the introduction of 3060 tech. With all the debate about module compensation, if this is true, one critically important fact has been overlooked: all current IS tech becomes obsolete the day 3060 tech becomes available. To be competitive in IS mechs after the skill tree goes live will require completely refitting nearly every piece of equipment with the new tech. Otherwise, you'll have an unquriked (or reduced quirk) mech with access to the exact same skill tree that Clan mechs have.

If there aren't significant improvements in IS weapon and engine tech, you have a catastrophe on your hands as the disparity between Clan and IS only increases with the new system -- again, due to quirk removal. And if 3060 tech is successful in balancing the game, the added cost to IS pilots should be considered in any compensation model.


The intention is to eventually have IS and Clan balanced to the point where quirks will no longer be needed to make that possible.

However, as far as the current changes, please refer to the posted announcement (linked here for you).

IS is going to have better Cooldown skills than clan does, making them better at the brawl compared to clan tech. On top of that, IS will also have better laser duration skills. Combined together are going to really make IS lasers more accurate and shoot a LOT faster. So the balance will start to become DPS and closer ranges vs more burst (Clans can typically mount harder hitting weapons) that has longer cooldown and longer beam duration.

So even in the Skill Tree, IS will be getting some additional benefits over clans. However, my concern now is, how will mechs operate when unskilled? This could be the crutch point of balance. If balance is only obtained by skilling out your mech, than we are going to see balance issues with new and unskilled mechs, or misskilled mechs...

#7 The Jerol

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:42 PM

View PostTesunie, on 27 April 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:


The intention is to eventually have IS and Clan balanced to the point where quirks will no longer be needed to make that possible.

However, as far as the current changes, please refer to the posted announcement (linked here for you).

IS is going to have better Cooldown skills than clan does, making them better at the brawl compared to clan tech. On top of that, IS will also have better laser duration skills. Combined together are going to really make IS lasers more accurate and shoot a LOT faster. So the balance will start to become DPS and closer ranges vs more burst (Clans can typically mount harder hitting weapons) that has longer cooldown and longer beam duration.

So even in the Skill Tree, IS will be getting some additional benefits over clans. However, my concern now is, how will mechs operate when unskilled? This could be the crutch point of balance. If balance is only obtained by skilling out your mech, than we are going to see balance issues with new and unskilled mechs, or misskilled mechs...


That's really helpful, Tesunie. Thank you.

Sadly, the very few differences are so small, that I fear the gap between IS and Clan will still widen. You get a 2.2% buff to cool down (IS relative to Clan) and a 5% duration advantage. Give me the 600 meter range, 13 damage Clan LPL all day over anything the IS has -- still.

Certain IS mechs just cease to exist in the new system. Take the MAL-MX90, for example. This is a good IS assault that takes advantage of some great ballistic quirks. It's no Kodiak-3, but it's good enough. Under the new system, it loses all its ballistic quirks (range, heat, velocity). If that happens, it's just bad.

As I only play solo QP, I think my opinion is askew. But the more I've played, the more I have tended to favor the high speed, high alpha, high survivability of Clan mechs over their IS counterparts. My great fear is that the new system will severely unbalance the game.

#8 Tesunie

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:59 PM

View PostThe Jerol, on 27 April 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

That's really helpful, Tesunie. Thank you.

Sadly, the very few differences are so small, that I fear the gap between IS and Clan will still widen. You get a 2.2% buff to cool down (IS relative to Clan) and a 5% duration advantage. Give me the 600 meter range, 13 damage Clan LPL all day over anything the IS has -- still.

Certain IS mechs just cease to exist in the new system. Take the MAL-MX90, for example. This is a good IS assault that takes advantage of some great ballistic quirks. It's no Kodiak-3, but it's good enough. Under the new system, it loses all its ballistic quirks (range, heat, velocity). If that happens, it's just bad.

As I only play solo QP, I think my opinion is askew. But the more I've played, the more I have tended to favor the high speed, high alpha, high survivability of Clan mechs over their IS counterparts. My great fear is that the new system will severely unbalance the game.


The balance is suppose to be IS have better closer range, clans have better longer ranges.

As for the difference between IS and Clan LPL, you'd be talking about a LPL that will be able to shoot more often over it's clan counterpart. The cooldown means actual faster reload times, and duration means more accurate (less spread) as well as better cooldown. This is because lasers don't start their cooldown until after their burn time (duration) is finished. So, IS actually are going to be sitting nice here, at least laser wise.

But, now tell me which tends to be more powerful in the game? DPS longer term engagements? Or mech disabling single high alphas?


There is suppose to be an asymmetrical balance (because perfect symmetrical balance is actually boring and stale, as much as it would be easier to balance) between Clans and IS. They aren't suppose to have any actual inherent advantages from one over the other, but the way this game is played it tends to favor Clan equipment. Sadly, I'm not too sure how they could be countered. Quirks only go so far, until you end up with "super-quirked" mechs.

What we need is some way to make DPS as viable as high alpha (burst) game play. And balance is always a tricky thing, at best. Go one way just a little bit, and it's all gone out of whack again. Basically, give an inch, and it goes the mile.


On note of new tech, I know the LFE will be very helpful for IS. It's not "as good" as a Clan XL, but it's the next best thing. Saves 1/4 of the weight, but can survive as much as a clan XL does. Will really make the Assaults gain a power boost, as well as most other mechs. Suddenly it's not "slow and heavy" standard engine, or "Fast. die young and make a pretty corpse" XL engine.

If I was PGI, I would try to create a "100% sell back for all engines" for a week (or even two) for IS when the new tech comes out. This would permit people who play IS to switch Std and XL engines to the LFE if needed/desired with more ease. All other tech be acquired the old fashioned way (because they also don't cost as much).

#9 B0oN

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:58 PM

Went to test PTS yesterday since all the "unbiased" threads in this forum piqued my interest .

Built a BLR ERLL-laservomit and a WHK 2UAC10 2SRM4 ... doesnt feel that different from live servers .
Yes, mechs drive a bit differently and might lose the one or the other slight touch somewhere, but gain on others .
Both mechs turned out as walking fortresses with about 180+ HP on the CT alone .
Furthermore, boating gets even more effective than it is now already, so prepare to keep the builds mostly the same but fiddle with their skillings ( you can change those skillings to either have brutal offensive with decent mobility/sensors and small defensive skillings, or you can alter those biases to wherever you like) .

Outcome is that one and the same mechloadout can have vastly different skillings due to pilots preferences (offensive/mobile/sensory/jumpy/defensive/multi consumables).
And lastly, I massively RECOMMEND to hop on the PTS and see for yourself, that skilltree thingie turned out to be quite interesting (thx Palfatreos for a highly entertaining afternoon !) .

P.s.: Im really looking forward to when the new tech hits ... I wanna see what a RAC Mauler does to others ^^

Edited by The Shortbus, 27 April 2017 - 11:00 PM.


#10 Koniving

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 05:46 AM

Damn it, my post never got sent... Posted Image

Anyway...

The IS has a lot of advantages (some of them insane) that the Clans do not, but many don't seem to realize this. All of these advantages have nothing to do with quirks.
  • First and foremost, the IS is the only side with a simple two weapon combination that can instantly kill Any and Every 'Mech with a single shot -- twin AC/20s to the cockpit. The Clans do not have such a combination.
  • IS LRMs fly in groups, ensuring that AMS is less effective against them as opposed to Clan LRMs.
  • IS weapons are almost universally colder.
  • IS weapons are more lax in the ghost heat department, with fewer restrictions and less ********.
  • Even without quirks, all of the IS weapons are universally faster (except SRMs and Streaks). Even when the cooldown is identical, as cooldown doesn't begin until the weapon has finished firing.
The way IS weapons are set up is to encourage "pop-and-squat" tactics at range and encircle-and-dispose tactics to get close where the IS advantages really pay off.

Examples
Spoiler

The way Clan weapons are set up is to be able to engage 'campers' at range while aggressively enclosing so that the IS threat is overwhelmed and destroyed before the Clanner gets too close.
A prime example.
Spoiler

Though Clanners have tremendous range advantages, their required beam times (which used to be a lot more forboding than now; thanks to all the blanket enhancements Clans have gotten to combat the ever growing threat of total IS superiority through quirks) actually made long range combat very non-preferable for Clan mechs due to the prolonged exposure times where a pop-and-squat IS mech could snipe them out using Gauss or ER PPCs or their much shorter ER LLs.

This video by the Perfect Screenshot thread's Lordred, while it lacks a musical score, unintentionally showcases exactly what I mean on both sides. Despite the fact that this is a group queue fight before most of the game's quirks, the IS and Clan mechs are mostly on par with each other and the mechs are being played to each side's strengths. The Clan mechs seem to prefer to be mostly in the open, hunting campers. The IS mechs generally try to find spots to camp and shoot from while some of the IS mechs that are more suited to brawling are holding off the Clan hunters. The Clan mechs that are not good at hunting resort to more long ranged roles to potshot at IS campers and brawlers.
Another quality example. Lordred's video again. Prior to IS quirks and Clan blanket buffs, we all preferred IS mechs despite the fact that a fan pumped out 240 dollars to make sure I had every Clan mech for the time. Time Index: 1:47 "The Inner Sphere is overpowered, I officially decree it." December 2014. 2 IS mechs had quirks (the worst ones), 2 more IS mechs had massive negative quirks (Victors and Highlanders), all Clan mechs had Omnipods where some had no quirks, some had positive quirks (encouraging FEW hardpoints) and negative quirks (discouraging MANY hardpoints).

Ways to deal with Clan mechs...




Go for the oversized center torsos. Every Clan CT can be hit from the front and sides. Take advantage of this weakness; their twisting is meaningless if you know where to shoot.

All Clanners (with two exceptions; Hellbringer funny enough being one of them) have GIGANTIC COCKPIT HITBOXES that you can see from Outer Space! Load up twin AC/20s and shoot 'em, one shot one kill. For extra fun, only bring 2 tons of ammo. Bam, enough ammo to kill everyone.

For those Clanner mechs that have high speed, well those legs look mighty pretty -- all the better to gawk at when they are broken!

Is the big bad mech gettin' scary? Well it's okay, most scary Clan mechs can't use their arms to go left and right. But almost all IS mechs can! Circle 'em!

Did you know that all chicken walkers have huge front hitboxes? The Clans have a lot of them, and so they unnel almost all that armor to the front. That's why they seem to be so tough to kill. Guess what usually has very little armor? Their backsides. This is true of both teams but Clans have more chicken walkers than not, so it is really worth pointing out.
"War, war never changes." (Link is for the reference.)

Why does all of this matter?



For the past two years, the Clans have been getting gentle blanket buffs to counteract all the overpowered nonsense that the IS mechs have from the plethora of quirks just thrown on them. And every new mech gets even more quirks than the last, perpetuating a never ending cycle known as power creep.

The removal of 'most' quirks is to do two things. 1) Remove a shitload of the power creep. 2) Allow you to choose your own quirks.

If they remove the quirks, they can remove the blanket buffs, and all the rapid kills can be majorly toned down again so that the game can again, potentially, be fun.

Fun like it used to be before quirks, where you didn't die instantly because you turned a corner and saw 2 enemies. Fun where you could be exchanging fire against someone within 300 meters of each other and have the time to pick up your drink, take a sip, put it down, type everything you just did to rub it in, and then tell him that it's been fun but it's time for him to die... and then make the kill.

For me that was a far more enjoyable social experience than what it is now. "H--" BOOM!, dead. "Jesus, can't even say hi before I get killed."

Note: Every single video I chose is before the "Quirkening," where IS mechs received a plethora of quirks, prior to that most IS mechs did not have quirks even while every single Clan mech did! And the IS was not only fun but at times still overpowered. This changed however when the Hellbringer brought Clans a heavy ECM and then everything hit the fan because every balance decision after had been reactionary. "This is too powerful!" buffs the opposing side. "ZOMG OVERPOWERED!" Buffs the previously too powerful side... "No more negatives!" Removes all negative quirks, dramatically increasing the deadliness of both sides. The mechs that used to have negative quirks suddenly become the best mechs in the game. Everything gets super quirks to counteract it. IS quirks are too great "ZOMG don't touch my quirks!"... Clans get steady blanket buffs every few patches to help counter the IS quirks. "ZOMG CLANS OP!" More quirks to IS.. More blanket buffs to Clans.

"War just isn't what it used to be." (Link is for the reference.)

(Edit 1: Added a bit more.)
(Edit 2: Realized the power creep video poofed. Added Lordred videos. Added mechlist.)
I currently have 246 mechs.
Of them...
29 IS lights
56 IS Mediums
48 IS Heavies
40 IS Assaults
16 Clan lights
19 Clan mediums
18 Clan heavies
20 Clan assaults

From what I have, with few exceptions the IS is generally superior in everything except range and laser damage, but more damage versus significantly shorter beam times, the shorter beam times to deliver the damage faster and in the right spots makes all the difference in the world.

If you fight in the open (Clan turf) as an IS mech, yes you're screwed seven ways to Sunday. Much like many Clan mechs are screwed if they fight in cluttered areas.

After this skill tree... "War has changed." (Link to reference.)

Edited by Koniving, 28 April 2017 - 07:09 AM.


#11 Koniving

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:03 AM

Had to fix various links as all the links went poof. I'm sure that didn't help the initial read so if you read it before with no videos to show, it may be worth re-reading now for context.

#12 Koniving

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 09:24 AM

This was rich.

Quoted name was changed.

View PostA Clanner crybaby, on 28 April 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

Does anyone else thing that the upcoming drop of futuretech will F&%$ things up royally?

Further Clan Weapon Nerfs with PTS, making modded Clan weapons and tech weaker than than IS in the categories of Cooldown and Laser Duration.

Max Heat gen quirk is getting nerfed across the board from 15% to 8%....WHY?

No word on max heat capacity. This could really nerf Clan Mechs that tend to run hotter.

Then look at the New Tech dropping. I don't care weather it is IS or Clan tech, I am concerned with the balance here. All Merc Units are going to go IS for the new tech and it is going to screw everybody.

Also, Why doesn't clan get more tech also?

Does Clan Tech Really need ANOTHER round of nerfs?

Don't play the lore card on this one, I love it also, but we all know it has nothing to do with MWO.

Thanks for reading - Note that While this is a Clan Account, I'm no stranger to playing IS. I'm concerned about the WHOLE GAME here, this is not about partisan party politics.


So, Jerol, I think you might consider that both sides believe they are getting majorly hit as a way of stamping down the amount of power creep currently in the game.

This quack's kinda missing that Clans are getting new tech. Quite a bit in fact. It's just the IS is getting new tech + their versions of the greater amount of tech the Clans already have which is why the IS tech list is longer.

#13 Koniving

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 09:41 AM

I believe he's also missed the numerous blanket buffs the Clans got.

Clan ER Medium lasers used to be 1.25 second beam time (not sure but wasn't this 1.5 seconds originally?). Currently 1.15 second.
Clan medium pulse lasers used to be 7 heat, now 6 heat. Used to be at 1 second beam time, now at 0.85 seconds.
(Funny enough, Clan ER and pulse small lasers are unchanged; but they are also the most quirked).
Clan ER Large and Large Pulse have received heat reductions compared to their original introduction and multiple damage increases, originally starting at 10 and 11.6, and now they deliver 11 and 13 damage. Why use a Clan ER PPC when you have a cold LPL that puts more damage to one spot per shot?

Clan autocannons (std and ultra) got changed to go from 2, 3, 4, 5 rounds for 2, 5, 10, and 20 ratings... to 1, 2, 3, 4 rounds for 2, 5, 10 and 20 ratings. That's going from 1 damage per bullet, 1.67 damage per bullet, 2.5 damage per bullet and 4 damage per bullet to the blanket buffed 2 damage per bullet, 2.5 damage per bullet, 3.33 damage per bullet and finally 5 damage per bullet.

IS Gauss -- in the face of extreme quirks enhancing ballistic range, got its 3x stated range reduced to 2x stated range, taking the 'sniper' out of the game's IS sniper rifles.

Both sides got massive crit changes, making the health of items more dynamic and lowering the health of the much lighter Clan equipment so that crits actually matter again (but hey, the IS is so weak against their Clan overlords, right?)

It's okay though. We just can't have nice things.

#14 Alexander of Macedon

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 12:39 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 26 April 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

The new tech isn't the question: it's the answer. PGI has chosen to re-balance the game by introducing new tech to offset one of the more subtle difficulties in balancing the Clans - more hammers. Now, the Clans also enjoy somewhat better hammers, which is a huge off-topic subject. But, they also have more hammers; more tools. This isn't an advantage in itself: having the best options far outweighs having any number of (for the sake of illustration) inferior substitutes. But the Inner Sphere's total lack of say, Streak-6 launchers, has to complicate balance.

Now, there's other issues: there's really no IS Light to match the Arctic Cheetah as a light hunter, for example - but the ability of Streak-6 boats to almost hard-counter any close-range Light build ads a powerful, if specialized, tool to the Clan arsenal. That's important, because you now have a confounding variable with far-reaching impact - it's crappy brawling with things its own size or larger, even though it can sandblast Lights down, so there's uneven interplay outside of just making Inner Sphere Lights perform well against their counterparts in the Clan stable.

Advancing the tech base will help with this, and gives PGI the opportunity to rebalance the entire weapon lineup while still delivering additional content that's been consistently asked for for some time. We'll have to see how it works out.


This is total nonsense. LFE is still flatly inferior to Clan XL. Clams still get more markedly better FF and ES alongside more space-efficient equipment. New weapon selections do nothing for the fact that most of the more heavily quirked IS 'mechs underperform for reasons unrelated to what the IS has for equipment: bad hardpoints, bad geometry, &c.

#15 ShooterMcGavin80

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:43 PM

Speaking as a newbie who is just starting and having alot of fun:

Why is PGI messing around with this game in such a fundamental way? Everything right now to me seems to be quite well balanced. Some clan mechs definitely might feel a bit OP, but it feels alright and the flavor is good.

To me the fundamental problem with the game right now is the difference between stock mechs and fully moduled and mastered mechs. I get that it is fun slowly improving and leveling up your mech (I've loved doing it for the five mechs I've done it on so far), but it feels a little wrong and it hikes up the learning curve tremendously for newbs. This is not a Roleplaying MMO where you are on a quest to collect magical items and level your character up. This is a game about teamplay tactics and futuristic military equipment. You got a skilled pilot in a tricked out mech versus a newbie in a stock mech without the various modules that improve situational awareness and survivability? New pilot doesn't stand a chance and vet players in the game will rag on him. I've heard it happen several times and it is unpleasant.

So I would say keep chassis quirks, but do away with the skill tree and weapon modules altogether. Or reduce the total improvement of any stat from stock to just 5%. Right now it is nuts the difference between a stock mech and fully mastered and weapon moduled mech.

Plus there is the time investment. Some of us would like to be able to compete on the battlefield without having to spend 8+ hours to improve a mech so that it is actually playable. It would be hugely more fun for those of us newbs just getting in to the game to be able to spend our time getting more different mechs rather than having to spend about six hours grinding and leveling up mechs to their full potential.

On Future tech:

Opening up new tech to EVERY mech model is, in my opinion, a huge can of worms that brings mech design complexity to a level of absurdity; and/or, it will simply create a few new weapon combos that become the new standard and make old loadouts obsolete. I think it would maintain the flavor of the game to only allow future tech on a new series of 'future' mechs; in essence introducing two new sub-factions of mechs; advanced IS and advanced Clan. Maybe introduce just four new 'future' mechs for each faction, and then slowly add more. That way all the builds we know and love can remain in the game and the future mechs will have their own flavor. 'Old' model mechs could have new 'future' chassis of the same mech re-modeled and introduced. Kinda like how you have the Marauder. Then the Marauder IIC. Then you'd have the Marauder 'future' IS, and Marauder IIC 'future' clan.

Edited by ShooterMcGavin80, 28 April 2017 - 07:45 PM.


#16 B0oN

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 02:34 AM

Mister McGavin, the sole reason for PGI mixing up MW:O in such a big way is : It is needed . Very much so .
Stale air needs to get replaced .

About the grind: we ALL had to go through it to get where we are now, equipmentwise spoken .
Think about how much you need to grind right now to get the CBills for a mech, it´s customisation, it´s engine, it´s weapons and it´s modules ( IS lights, somebody ? ^^ Triple the buying price to have an approximation about how much the whole equipment will cost on it (weapons, Endo, FF, DHS, XL engines).
I´m not fully sure about how fast the leveling process will be under skilltree, but my gut feeling tells me it could be a bit quicker to level up a mech under skilltree than it is now .

#17 Rogue Jedi

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 02:40 AM

View PostShooterMcGavin80, on 28 April 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Speaking as a newbie who is just starting and having alot of fun:

Why is PGI messing around with this game in such a fundamental way? Everything right now to me seems to be quite well balanced. Some clan mechs definitely might feel a bit OP, but it feels alright and the flavor is good.

To me the fundamental problem with the game right now is the difference between stock mechs and fully moduled and mastered mechs. I get that it is fun slowly improving and leveling up your mech (I've loved doing it for the five mechs I've done it on so far), but it feels a little wrong and it hikes up the learning curve tremendously for newbs. This is not a Roleplaying MMO where you are on a quest to collect magical items and level your character up. This is a game about teamplay tactics and futuristic military equipment. You got a skilled pilot in a tricked out mech versus a newbie in a stock mech without the various modules that improve situational awareness and survivability? New pilot doesn't stand a chance and vet players in the game will rag on him. I've heard it happen several times and it is unpleasant.

So I would say keep chassis quirks, but do away with the skill tree and weapon modules altogether. Or reduce the total improvement of any stat from stock to just 5%. Right now it is nuts the difference between a stock mech and fully mastered and weapon moduled mech.

Plus there is the time investment. Some of us would like to be able to compete on the battlefield without having to spend 8+ hours to improve a mech so that it is actually playable. It would be hugely more fun for those of us newbs just getting in to the game to be able to spend our time getting more different mechs rather than having to spend about six hours grinding and leveling up mechs to their full potential.

I often get great games in a brand new, completely unskilled, Mech. the biggest factor in improving a Mech is upgrading or replacing the stock loadout with something which works for me. yes having the skills can help but in many cases my first game with a chassis took weeks or months to beat.

Quote

On Future tech:

Opening up new tech to EVERY mech model is, in my opinion, a huge can of worms that brings mech design complexity to a level of absurdity; and/or, it will simply create a few new weapon combos that become the new standard and make old loadouts obsolete. I think it would maintain the flavor of the game to only allow future tech on a new series of 'future' mechs; in essence introducing two new sub-factions of mechs; advanced IS and advanced Clan. Maybe introduce just four new 'future' mechs for each faction, and then slowly add more. That way all the builds we know and love can remain in the game and the future mechs will have their own flavor. 'Old' model mechs could have new 'future' chassis of the same mech re-modeled and introduced. Kinda like how you have the Marauder. Then the Marauder IIC. Then you'd have the Marauder 'future' IS, and Marauder IIC 'future' clan.

Sorry but I cannot agree with restricting the tech to a few Mechs
if the future tech was restricted to new chassis that would literaly obsolite the older chassis. I
agree balence could become problematic for a month or 2, but dominant weapons combnations have happened many times in the past 5 years, almost every weapon (exceptions AC2, Flamer, Machine Gun) have gone from being considered useless to to overpowered to about right, and in some cases that has happened several times. each time a weapon value is changed that alters what "meta" players bring, the same happens with chassis when their quirks are changed.

#18 Void Angel

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 10:52 AM

View PostThe Jerol, on 27 April 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

And if 3060 tech is successful in balancing the game, the added cost to IS pilots should be considered in any compensation model.

Not at all; what you're asking for is completely unworkable in the first place, and unreasonable in the second. "Compensation" for fixing balance issues? Please.

View PostAlexander of Macedon, on 28 April 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:


This is total nonsense. LFE is still flatly inferior to Clan XL. Clams still get more markedly better FF and ES alongside more space-efficient equipment. New weapon selections do nothing for the fact that most of the more heavily quirked IS 'mechs underperform for reasons unrelated to what the IS has for equipment: bad hardpoints, bad geometry, &c.

Actually this is nonsense, because you are arguing against a claim I haven't made - that the advance of the tech timeline will cure all balance problems. This is a straw man fallacy, and an egregious one: you're discrediting yourself. What I actually said was that advancing the timeline will help with some aspects of balance by reducing the asymmetrical toolkit problem that's currently confounding balance issues.

When we read to understand, rather than to argue in favor of our pre-concieved opinions, we embarrass yourselves much less frequently.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 April 2017 - 09:38 PM.


#19 Insanity09

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 07:50 PM

Not all quirks are being eliminated with the upcoming changes, some are being reduced.
Many of the mobility quirks (accel/decel/turn rate, etc.) are being removed because they are being rolled into weight class, chassis hidden values, and the whole engine decoupling thing.

I cannot speak to values and balance from when clans were first introduced, I started after that.
From my observations since I started, and personal experience playing mostly IS and a few clan mechs, the clans currently have the edge. How much of an edge and why exactly is debatable.
The advantage may also be in part due to the proliferation of more long range styles, which clearly cater to the clans strengths, and maps that support that play.

I do know that, for reasons I have never understood, games devs are prone to tuning their games with a sledgehammer, rather than a simple screwdriver. Changes happen and things break. Case in point, our current battery of upcoming patches.

I do agree that scaling things back would seem to be the wisest course right now, but my pleas to do it gradually fall on deaf ears.

#20 The Jerol

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 10:13 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 29 April 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

Not at all; what you're asking for is completely unworkable in the first place, and unreasonable in the second. "Compensation" for fixing balance issues? Please.


I don't think it's unworkable -- and it's certainly not unreasonable. PGI has sold huge numbers of mechs and equipment to IS pilots over the years. They then introduced Clan mechs and realized they were overpowered. To balance this, they introduced quirks. The quirk system, while imperfect, did succeed in restoring some semblance of balance to the game and it did so at no added cost to IS pilots. Now they're scrapping all that and in order to remain competitive, many mechs will need to refit. Whoever is running an IS XL engine the day LFE is released, for example, is obsolete. Meanwhile, Clan mechs continue to run their superior XLs, with their superior ranged weapons with their superior damage. Making players pay for "fixing balance issues"? Please.





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