53 replies to this topic

[SmokedJag]

Khobai, on 28 April 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:

except im not buying anything from PGI ever again if I dont get a full cbill refund (or at least 50% cbills and 50% GSP) for my modules.

so theyre losing at least one customer if they proceed with this unsatisfactory compensation plan.



And im not entirely unsympathetic to that. Which is why I would settle for 50% cbills and 50% GSP.

Since I can sell my modules for 50% cbills anyway, the cbill economy would be no worse off if PGI just gave 50% cbills and 50% GSP. And giving me the 50% GSP in exchange for taking half cbills on my modules and the inconvenience of switching to the new system seems fair. I would feel fully compensated then.

I feel that is a reasonable compromise.

So you're quitting unless you get bonus compensation? Seriously???

Your module is worth 50% of its purchase price in Cbills as is because there is no mechanic to resell it for full purchase price. You're saying you want that 50% in Cbills like if you sold it today AND GSP equivalent to 3 million Cbills (not to mention attendant XP). Why on Earth should they give you that?

[Lily from animove]

SmokedJag, on 28 April 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

So you're quitting unless you get bonus compensation? Seriously???

Your module is worth 50% of its purchase price in Cbills as is because there is no mechanic to resell it for full purchase price. You're saying you want that 50% in Cbills like if you sold it today AND GSP equivalent to 3 million Cbills (not to mention attendant XP). Why on Earth should they give you that?

because the module cost 6million, so 3 million in cbills and the equivalent of 3million in GXP is that 6m people spent, quite soem basic math oif you ask me.

selling the module for 50% is an active choice, but we have no choice because PGI isselling it for us forcefully.
Just imagien PGI woudl sell all your mechs and say: "well you can rebuy them" because that is what happens, sxcept the new mechs you have to rebuy come stripped (which is also fitting since amodule is way better than those SP we get for them).

[Bud Crue]

Monkey Lover, on 27 April 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

Im not going to get into if the way they are refunding is good or bad . What I want to think about is how much is this going to hurt them financially.

Im getting back over 500k gxp. this is over 100 bucks worth.
Im getting so many gsp back i will never have to grind again.
They're giving people back consumable MC refunds.
Then we are getting some cbill module refunds.


Tons of people are going to skip spending cash for the mc-xp to gxp converter.
They are going to skip buying few extra mech bays because they got free mc now.
Lastly they're going to skip buying a mech pack because they have the cbill to buy a few other mechs now.


I just can't see this being a good business plan.

TLDR: Not only is it a bad business plan, its a bad plan in light of their own goals

4 Stated goals of the skills tree were originally:
1) Increase mech diversity,
2) Improve player choice,
3) Provide means to aid players into transitioning from a 3 mech model to a 1 mech model,
4) dramatically reduce quirks.

Goals that are implied by more recent statements and the latest PTS announcement:
5) improve long term balance by determining a new base line of mech performance.
6) ensure player retention and satisfaction by providing a refund scheme that lets players of all types maintain their XP and module based "progress" on all their current mech without flooding accounts with excess c-bills with which players can buy mechs with rather than impulse purchase with real money.

Now those are the stated and implied goals.

Does the skills tree and all its accompanying dross (nerfs, decouple, refund, etc.) achieve any of these goals? Are these goal ALL even achievable buy the system proposed? Answer is No, and No.

By drowning the community with HSP and GSP there is no motivation to even play the game, and certainly not to play or "grind" mechs that are in any way less than optimal or meta.

By flooding players with all this artificial currency, the goal of increased diversity is blown (goal 1), improved player choice is avoided (goal 2), there is no need to worry about 3 mechs vs 1 mech since all those currencies ensure it will be no problem to acquire 1 or in some cases 100s of mechs and level them with clicks rather than by play or purchase (goal 3). Right there three of the four original PGI stated goals are tossed aside by this refund scheme. Don't believe me? Consider the poke'mech player or even someone that likes to collect a nice cross-section of mechs. They have now all this GSP just sitting there. No need to buy 3 but so what, they can buy every...say Vindicator variant...with little effort (they may even now have plenty of cbills too) apply some fraction of their GSP hoard to leveling them, and viola: Fully skilled out low tier mechs that they have no need to "grind". Maybe they play once or twice for the novelty, but this player knows Vindicators are garbage tier so why bother? The collection has been added to, the mechs are all instantly leveled. The player can go back to their Hunchback IIc with a smile on their face and the ability to say "yeah, I leveled every Vindicator in the game". Has this increased diversity of mechs being played? Did some in game motivations encourage the player to try something new, to make real choices that affected the game in a positive way? No? Well then there is a problem with a couple of the goals we are trying to achieve here is there not?

Now consider the two implied goals of a new data driven base line, and player retention and satisfaction by refunding all this artificial currency.

If player can now acquire a mech and level it without playing it...or at least not be required to play it via the "grind"...what kinda data is PGI going to get from what little low tier, less desirable mechs are resultingly played? Really f**king skewed data that's what. What do ya suppose that highly restricted data set is going to do for the establishment of that baseline? Now add to that the nerfs that represent the fourth original goal of the skills tree (the drastic reduction of quirks). Bad mechs made worse are not going to get played...EVER in an un-fully leveled state, and even leveled only rarely and probably only by those players playing them as a mere novelty. Now back to that "data" and "base line" and "balance". Good luck with that.

And now the final implied goal of player satisfaction and retention. So in this system, most of your fairly stable population of players can play whatever they want in a fully leveled state with no need to experiment or try new things. Well that sounds like a plan for a diverse experience just full of viable options... or maybe it is actually the essential definition of stagnation. If you think it is going to be a satisfactory gaming experience to provide a system where only a select few of the best mechs (mechs that are being made better by original goal #4 relative to all others) are played then I would like to sell you some PGI stock, just as soon as they go public.

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 April 2017 - 03:54 AM.

[Natred]

The amount of money some people put into this game players should get a 3d printed 2 foot tall timberwolf hand painted by canadians. If you noticed some players potentially getting back more mc because they actually play the game and the events. No need to get jelly bro. Jelous Lololol

Edited by Natred, 28 April 2017 - 07:09 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Natred, on 28 April 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

The amount of money some people put into this game players should get a 3d printed 2 foot tall timberwolf hand painted by canadians. If you noticed some players potentially getting back more mc because they actually play the game and the events. No need to get jelly bro. Lololol

Do people really buy mc modules? Only time I have is because I screwed up lol

[Marquis De Lafayette]

I am not worried about the C-bill economy being over-flush with c-bills (with a full refund) for the following reasons;

1. The only people who will have 500 million+ c-bills will be long-time, regular players. These people MOST deserve to be treated fairly for their loyalty. Personally..I am regular, but only in just over a year...so I don't meet these qualifications. However, without these people this game may have gone under before I got involved in it.

2. It doesn't cost PGI real $ or threaten their business model. Long time players don't buy c-bill packs for $. They don't have to...They can just grind in game to get what they need. Those are the people who would be getting massive refunds. C-bills isn't even really a competitor for mechpacks either. I order the ones I am excited about and will order them no matter my c-bill balance. I don't want to wait. The ones I am not excited about I would forgo on rather than buy for $....if I had 200 million I would still buy the ones I would buy if I had 1 million. So, the real money sales $ isn't really impacted by c-bill balances. The only people buying old (c-bill available) mechs for real $ are new players (I did it). They are jumpstarting their stable, which older players don't need to do. Newer players won't be getting a giant bundle of c-bills back.

3. I could easily spend 200 million+ C-bills just getting the mechs (that were less pressing needs) and engines that I didn't get before...as I spent my c-bills on modules. Might be like 300 million.. If I did I would have to buy 20 mechbays. This would wipe out about 4x my refund MC. A win for PGI...as I would need to spend real $ on getting MC to do it. I suspect I am not the only one who would do this.

4. Anything left over will be put towards "the mother of all c-bill sinks"..,timeline jump. New weapons, new engines. The c-bill cost will be astronomical. Some of these players who would get 500 million in c-bills back would probably go through it all buying new mechs now and with the timeline jump. Again, this doesn't cost PGI real money, but it does save some of the longest term and most loyal players real grind.

My GSP refund is within the usable range. Might take me a year or 2 to use it. So, I am not really concerned about myself. Just let's not mess over those who have been loyal for a long time.

[Coolant]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

It may very well affect sales or income flow from them, which may motivate them to either add new methods of monetisation or currency (including XP) sinks. It isn't going to cause the project to get shut down or anything.

There are almost limit-less ways of earning income. They will find a way. It is their livelihood.

[Monkey Lover]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 28 April 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I am not worried about the C-bill economy being over-flush with c-bills (with a full refund) for the following reasons;

Lots of good points thatk you for the post.

[Calcite]

[Spheroid]

Of course it is idiotic. Can anyone support with any evidence that twelve cheap players exist to replace one player who otherwise would have bought the standard Kodiak package as a means to the KDK-3? I sure as hell can't. Unless it is twelve or more the total profit will be less.

I would say fire the marketing department, but you know the decision came straight from the top.

Business wise it makes zero sense, the problems of skill tree had nothing to do with the three variant requirement. Do people who don't have time to grind have time to be forum warriors? Who are the supposed aggrieved?

Edited by Spheroid, 28 April 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Alex Morgaine, on 27 April 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Waiting for 20-25,60 and 85-95 ton mechs that interest me. Will probably still... Um... What's a semi whale? A dolphin?

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 08:35 PM, said:

A manatee.

Yo momma?

Sorry, couldn't resist

[Bud Crue]

Coolant, on 28 April 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

There are almost limit-less ways of earning income. They will find a way. It is their livelihood.

Yeah.

They could make CW worth playing in the manner Bryan once touted. I'd throw money at them if it were.
They could make mechs competitive with one another the way Paul once asserted. I'd throw even more money at them if they did.
They could make a truly immersive mech warrior experience of the type Russ used to claim was coming soon. I'd probably just give them my Amex number if they ever did.

Yeah, lots of ways for them to get me to start spending again. But instead of doing any of those things (things they themselves used to claim as being important to the game) we are have a CW which was supposed to be focused on going on month 5 of no substantive changes. Game play which is dominated by 4-5 clan mechs and 2 IS mechs, and 2 weapons in particular. And immersion that is limited to dots on a map and little stories they provide with some of the hero mechs.

Skills tree?

Meh.

[DAYLEET]

Monkey Lover, on 27 April 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

Im not going to get into if the way they are refunding is good or bad . What I want to think about is how much is this going to hurt them financially.

1) Im getting back over 500k gxp. this is over 100 bucks worth.
2) Im getting so many gsp back i will never have to grind again.
3) They're giving people back consumable MC refunds.
4) Then we are getting some cbill module refunds.


5) Tons of people are going to skip spending cash for the mc-xp to gxp converter.
6) They are going to skip buying few extra mech bays because they got free mc now.
7) Lastly they're going to skip buying a mech pack because they have the cbill to buy a few other mechs now.


8) I just can't see this being a good business plan.

1) How do you even translate that into cash?
2) Great news! You can start having fun with your mech and focus on testing loadout. Its not like we play to grind, we have to.
3) and? You're getting back how much? A few thousands? What can you do with a few thousands of mc? Its cool that they refund, knowing that most mc consumable were given in events. Its a gift, a small one but a cool gesture is a cool gesture.
4) Some is the key word. It will quickly disappear with the Civil War. At worse people will be able to equip XL and LFE in each mech instead of switching them like modules. Less hassle, more time for fun.

5) Converting xp was always kind of a dumb move. I think ive done it twice to unlock a module i wanted now! rather than tomorrow and always for a ridiculously low amount of mc's i had left. Can't imagine that anyone, or enough people, would use it so hard as to make a difference in pgi earning.
6) It's a good thing that mechbays are only 300mc. Less than 2 bucks when you get the worst mc pack. Maybe the event giving 100 and 200 mc lured you into thinking it was valuable.
7) I buy mech pack the the Patterns, the cbill boost and Hero Variant. Some(not me but i imagine 90% of the spenders) also do it for the exclusivity of playing it earlier than the cbills variant.


8) Knowing how pgi seems to listen to money more than anything else, i think they have done the math already. Those "loss" seems to be from things the majority would not do: buy consumable mc, convert xp.

[DAYLEET]

Satan n stuff, on 28 April 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

The consumable refund is going to give me about 25 tons of hero mech worth of MC at those prices, that's probably going to be put towards another mech at some point.

Thats just chump change but isnt it cool? Isnt great that people who did the events and got mc consumable get the mc refund? If they get a hero with it, everybody wins in my book. Its good to have another reason to play.

[C E Dwyer]

Monkey Lover, on 27 April 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

Im not going to get into if the way they are refunding is good or bad . What I want to think about is how much is this going to hurt them financially.

Im getting back over 500k gxp. this is over 100 bucks worth.
Im getting so many gsp back i will never have to grind again.
They're giving people back consumable MC refunds.
Then we are getting some cbill module refunds.


Tons of people are going to skip spending cash for the mc-xp to gxp converter.
They are going to skip buying few extra mech bays because they got free mc now.
Lastly they're going to skip buying a mech pack because they have the cbill to buy a few other mechs now.


I just can't see this being a good business plan.

*shrugs* It's a bad business plan removing the rule of three, and that is going to hit them harder in the bank account long run, than a few mech bays

[Weeny Machine]

Alexander of Macedon, on 27 April 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

You sound as if you think there is logic or reasoning behind any of the decisions made at PGI.

I heard these dudes are heavily taking a hand in their decisions.

[Mole]

Whatever happens from this point forward this whole refund situation is already going to go down in the annuls of PGI history as one of the greatest blunders that their customers will never let them forget. Ever.

[Clownwarlord]

Funny ... some threads are bitching about not getting enough back and now we have threads bitching about too much. This is why PGI shouldn't listen to us the community because we as a collective can't make up our own damn minds.

[Monkey Lover]

DAYLEET, on 28 April 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

1) How do you even translate that into cash?
3) and? You're getting back how much? A few thousands? What can you do with a few thousands of mc? Its cool that they refund, .

#1 due to talking about cost it's how much it would cost in mc to convert to gxp.
#3 most I'm guessing mech bays.

As for everything else I will just say, how much do you think on average people spends on this game?
Let's just say 100 bucks, when you say only 2 bucks you got to think this is 2% of Pgi income.

[Bud Crue]

Clownwarlord, on 28 April 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Funny ... some threads are bitching about not getting enough back and now we have threads bitching about too much. This is why PGI shouldn't listen to us the community because we as a collective can't make up our own damn minds.

If they can be as inconsistent and contradictory with their stated goals for the skills tree, it shouldn't be a surprise that the community's reaction to it is just as schizophrenic.

As for me:
I could not care less about my huge refund of various currencies. If balance is shot as bad as I think it is about to be, then the mechs I normally play are going to be dramatically worse (relatively to the meta) than they were before, so I will likely just stop playing them. All 150. So all the HSP they get back for nodes is useless. At least the GSP will allow me to insta-level the new Night Gyr and Hunchback IIc I'll be purchasing. So that's nice I guess.