34 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Nightmare1, on 29 April 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

It's just annoying. Look at the following:

Option 1: Buy Level 1 Torso Twist for 1 point. Buy Level 2 Torso Twist for 3 points. Etc.

Option 2: Buy Level 1 Torso Twist for 1 point. Buy Level 1 Arm Pitch for 1 point. Buy Level 1 Fall Protection for 1 point. Buy Torso Twist for 1 point.

Suddenly, it feels bloated and almost like someone is trying to stop yo from acquiring your skills. I know that's not the case, but it's not very clean, creates a mountain of mouse clicking, and engenders a feeling of resentment that you're being "forced" to buy something you don't want.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, mind you. I'm just explaining the reasoning.

Yes, I get that.

I get that it's annoying, and that it adds clicks.

But you (not you specifically, people in general) needs to understand that there's levels of severity.

This is a quality of life issue, NOT in any way a balance issue. It's an annoyance but it does not harm gameplay once your on the battlefield. This doesn't make it ok,but it does mean it's less important than matters like the refund scheme that was worked on, as that materially impacted players. It's less important than balance issues - whether a skill or worse, whole tree, is worth taking or not, for example.

I'm fully behind cutting the skill tree way back; hell I'd like to see half the skills (and twice the effect per skill, half the skill points) to simplify the whole matter.

---

This is why I feel Mischief's approach in the OP is counterproductive.

He's really upset about skill BALANCE, but he's complaining about a annoyance that isn't the cause of the balance problem. PGI is going to look at it that way - just a QoL problem, not a more serious balance problem. Removing skill gating won't impact balance.

[Dollar Bill]

Wintersdark, on 28 April 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

Needing to take the other skills to maximize cooldown/range/heat gen is fine; it's a clever way to balance the inherent disadvantages of mixed builds. Just don't maximize those skills then. Or accept there's diminishing returns for a boated build maximizing those things.


Skills like Hill Climb being necessary works to increase the cost of what would otherwise be high value skills. It'd be exactly the same if they just assigned different values to some skills instead, rather than needing a Hill Climb to get a Speed Tweak, Speed Tweak would just cost two SP. At least we get *something* along the way here.

Ok, enlightened one. But what is a missile node good for on a ballistics/laser mech build?

Typical PGI White Knight apologist. The salt PGI is getting is for a good reason!

Dude, wake the F up!


Edit: And why is it always that these PGI White Knights apologist aren't in Tier 1? Is it because they die fast and blame it on meta builds, or boating? Or something other than their poor game skills or mech builds? Or both?

This guy has well over 10,000 post (14,000+), so he (or she) has been playing for a long time. But can't get to Tier 1. Why is that?

I ask because I think a lot of these PGI White Knights apologist equate Time to Kill (TTK) to everything else, other that to the fact that they suck at this game.

Something to think about.

Edited by Dollar Bill, 01 May 2017 - 07:47 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Dollar Bill, on 01 May 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

Ok, enlightened one. But what is a missile node good for on a ballistics/laser mech build?

Typical PGI White Knight apologist. The salt PGI is getting is for a good reason!

Dude, wake the F up!

...? Wasn't I clear? It looks clear to me.

Quote

Or accept there's diminishing returns for a boated build maximizing those things.

As I said earlier, its a somewhat clever if clumsy way to help give a leg up to mixed builds. Run lasers and ballistics, AND you really want to maximize your cooldown/range/heat, then you get minor dimishing returns on Skill Nodes purchased vs. useful returns. It's worse if you're just running a single weapon build. On the other hand, the more weapon types you run, the more efficient the firepower tree is for you. This still doesn't make up for the inherent losses due to a lack of weapon synergy, but it DOES serve to help those mechs that basically force 3 weapon types to be more effective vs. a boated/high synergy build than it would be otherwise.

In short: That missile node doesn't help you at all, that's my point. It's functionally identical to just making the top cooldown/range/heat nodes cost 2 Skill Points instead of 1.

Quote

Edit: And why is it always that these PGI White Knights apologist aren't in Tier 1? Is it because they die fast and blame it on meta builds, or boating? Or something other than their poor game skills or mech builds? Or both?

This guy has well over 10,000 post (14,000+), so he (or she) has been playing for a long time. But can't get to Tier 1. Why is that?

Wow! At last! I always wondered if someone would bring this up, and I'm pretty surprised nobody has until now.

Not that it matters - I could give precisely zero f**ks what you think of me - but for science's sake, the reason is readily apparent with a quick look at the publicly available stats. See how many matches I've played in the last few seasons.

You know how you make an XP bar move? Earn XP. You know how you make it stay still? Play Rimworld/Fallout4/Andromeda/Dishonored 2 instead.

But, you do you. You go on believing whatever claptrap fits your infantile narrative.

Quote

I ask because I think a lot of these PGI White Knights apologist equate Time to Kill (TTK) to everything else, other that to the fact that they suck at this game.

Something to think about.

? I can't recall ever saying anything of the sort, or even being particularly concerned about TTK at all. I *have* always been very up front about my abilities and limitations, though, and have been playing quite long enough to know exactly what I am, and am not good at - and why.

It's a nice strawman, though. Congrats on that much at least!

Edited by Wintersdark, 01 May 2017 - 08:55 PM.

[Dollar Bill]

Oh, did I hit a little too close to home?

Dude, the Skill Maze is a steaming pile. You, like the other PGI White Knights, trying to justify it is just making you look bad.

Out.

[B0oN]

#popcorn time

[Lancwen]

Dollar Bill, on 01 May 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

And why is it always that these PGI White Knights apologist aren't in Tier 1?

It is nice to know you have to be Tier 1 to be able to talk...

By the way, you can get to Tier 1 given enough time and a good team even if you are bad as hell

Edited by Lancwen, 02 May 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Wintersdark, on 01 May 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

Wow! At last! I always wondered if someone would bring this up, and I'm pretty surprised nobody has until now.

Not that it matters - I could give precisely zero f**ks what you think of me - but for science's sake, the reason is readily apparent with a quick look at the publicly available stats. See how many matches I've played in the last few seasons.

You know how you make an XP bar move? Earn XP. You know how you make it stay still? Play Rimworld/Fallout4/Andromeda/Dishonored 2 instead.

Lucky one - I don't know how often I have been attacked in the same way, but the reasons are similar.

However, if you want to increase the cost of a skill why not simply increase it?

Instead of a tree with billions of nodes - why not a simple slider with each additional point costing more than the previous point.

Ok we could also drop all the currencies and stay with only c-bills and mcs and get rid of xps and gxps and hxps and what ever.... I tried to understand many chances in the past - Ghostheat; calculation; but since energy draw I'm done.
I don't give a damn about quirks anymore; and I don't even try to understand the system behind the Skill Tree - when it comes life - i look and either spend some points or don't

[Wintersdark]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

Lucky one - I don't know how often I have been attacked in the same way, but the reasons are similar.

However, if you want to increase the cost of a skill why not simply increase it?

Probably a mechanical limitation with how it's designed at this point; from the start I'd assume they where aiming for "simpler" where nodes cost the same.

Quote

Instead of a tree with billions of nodes - why not a simple slider with each additional point costing more than the previous point.

Ok we could also drop all the currencies and stay with only c-bills and mcs and get rid of xps and gxps and hxps and what ever.... I tried to understand many chances in the past - Ghostheat; calculation; but since energy draw I'm done.
I don't give a damn about quirks anymore; and I don't even try to understand the system behind the Skill Tree - when it comes life - i look and either spend some points or don't

Yeah - I've never been a full supporter of the skill tree; there's a lot that could be better.

I'd strongly prefer at least half as many nodes (and half as many points) to reduce the insane number of nodes... Or lots of other potential things.

I in no way feel the Skill Tree is perfect, or even ideal. But I HATE the old skill tree so much, it desperately needs to be replaced. I'd have chosen so many other ways, but this is what we have and all we're gonna get. They're not going to make fundamental design changes at this point.

I've been around long enough to know the sorts of things they'll change, and the sorts of things they won't. So, while I said what I don't like before - I give full feedback - I'm not going to rail on about stuff that while not ideal isn't game destroying. *Shrugs*

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 May 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[B0oN]

Lancwen, on 02 May 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

By the way, you can get to Tier 1 given enough time and a good team even if you are bad as hell

Like I did ^^
#carry me, Im old and decrepit

Edited by The Shortbus, 02 May 2017 - 07:34 AM.

[Cato Phoenix]

Lancwen, on 02 May 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

It is nice to know you have to be Tier 1 to be able to talk...

No; but an argument about the state of the game is only realistically going to be considered if:

1) You are actually playing said game
2) You are playing at the tier level of the relevant commentary. I'm sorry; but someone in a T4 environment is not playing the same game despite the proclivity of the matchmaker algorithm to sacrifice them in the tier 1 salt pits.

It's not that his opinion isn't valid, it's just that contextually, it's not valid if it's offering suppositions on the context of current-MWO mechanics at Tier 1 gameplay.

The argument that white knights are lower tiers is questionable, and not an argument I've used. Anecdotally, it seems to the case, but there's no hard evidence of this and it's a slight predominance if anything. However, you could theoretically state that on the average, Tier 1 players are likely to have a better understanding of the game's mechanics and their outcomes.

[Karl Streiger]

Cato Phoenix, on 02 May 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

No; but an argument about the state of the game is only realistically going to be considered if:

1) You are actually playing said game
2) You are playing at the tier level of the relevant commentary. I'm sorry; but someone in a T4 environment is not playing the same game despite the proclivity of the matchmaker algorithm to sacrifice them in the tier 1 salt pits.

It's not that his opinion isn't valid, it's just that contextually, it's not valid if it's offering suppositions on the context of current-MWO mechanics at Tier 1 gameplay.

The argument that white knights are lower tiers is questionable, and not an argument I've used. Anecdotally, it seems to the case, but there's no hard evidence of this and it's a slight predominance if anything. However, you could theoretically state that on the average, Tier 1 players are likely to have a better understanding of the game's mechanics and their outcomes.

Well i know its OT but actually you don't need to play the game to present statements about balance. If your arguments are founded on data or stats.
OK its impossible to get refined data but what you get might allow some insight.

However from the feel the games of todays MWO era feel wrong, when it was elo i had a better clue how a game will evolve
Sometimes i think everything is fine and suddenly the game is lost. This is something that might come back when I'm able to play 20 or more games per season.
But usually i have i idea about a Mech a loadout and drop to test it.
By no means i would say that things need tweaking by my exp in chaos solo pug system, on the other hand i would not say that any balancing decission should be based on player exp - neither top down or bottom up. You don't balance skill.
Average damage/shot for the Clan erlaser is ~4.7 is er laser at 4.5 average.
In a long range duell you loose all the time using Clan er Lasers you might shout OP but unless you can't rate the damage of your performance and that of your foe things are impossible for you to solve - maybe you had a rating of 4 and the other was full concentrated with rating of 6.
So reason you did loose was skill and should not be balanced.

[Lolo van Trollinger]

hey PGI, why do i have to pick up all that trash again ?
i want radar deprevation, advanced zoom and advanced sensor range, as well as large laser cooldown and full mobility on my raven or locust sniper. how am i going to do that with this new system ? (not at all).
why do i need to farm crappy skill nodes and waste hard earned cash on that pile o rusty leftovers again ?
waaaait - what ? i have to spend all that time to test and reskill stuff i already skilled ? might be the right time to hire out stupid AP farming and reskilling through some kind of amazon mechanical turk i guess. tz tz tz, you really doing me a favour there, saves a lot of time and makes space for family activities... and you guys really expect me to pay again after that "highly interesting" (not !) update and the heap o civil war trash and a plssibility for devlin stoned induced insaniostupidity on the horizon ? really - what have you been smoking, soccer field demarcation powder ? you running a french salt & whine store on the side ?

*G*

god i love you all... this is going to be the most interesting season in any game forum ever....
free belfast cocktails and lighters, free clubs and bats - everyone only one piece.
ten c-bills per spectator seat !

challenge unlocked: find a setup that breaks playability without using dakka wheeeedakka and annihilator in the same... wait, hasnt that bushwhacker 4 ballistic... sshhhhhh...
*insane giggle, trawling/trolling into the off*

... and two morrow, we gonna take over the world...
bwahahaha

[Insanity09]

I think one of the things that saddens me about the new skill system, one among many, is the lack of specialization.

I had thought that one of the goals of the new skill tree was to promote diversity of build, and thereby have greater variety on the battlefield.
How can a skill tree (web? maze?) that allows every single person access to the exact same nodes accomplish that?

In the firepower tree, there is no customization for weapon type (excepting LBX and gauss). I cannot be an AC10 specialist any more than any other AC user. I certainly cannot focus and be better with MG's or pulse lasers, or SRM's, or streaks. The bonuses I can get are far too generic.

In the survival tree, I cannot turn one arm into a shield arm or bolster my CT only because I plan on running a STD engine, I can only add structure and armor across my whole mech. (as a total OT tangent, why is the AMS, a weapon, buffed only in the survival tree, and with no ammo/range improvement?)

In the agility tree, what can a light mech do, bonus wise, that an assault cannot? (at least in the survival tree, the structure/armor numbers vary by weight class).

In the sensor tree, I cannot distinguish myself as a significant ELINT platform.

Etc., etc., you get the idea.

I was hoping the new skill tree would really add role warfare back into the game, instead it has just smeared everything together in one big mish-mash. Trying to specialize seems so un-worthwhile (too many useless or at best marginally useful nodes to make that a reasonable goal), so the likely result will be cherry-picking, as best can be done in the maze as a whole, with a little more in some trees than others, depending on your specific goal/build.
<Sigh>

I don't hate the tree, per se, but I am very disappointed. All the lofty goals, all the seemingly attainable ones, and it achieves... none?

Edited by Insanity09, 05 May 2017 - 02:13 PM.

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

Insanity09, on 05 May 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

I think one of the things that saddens me about the new skill system, one among many, is the lack of specialization.

I had thought that one of the goals of the new skill tree was to promote diversity of build, and thereby have greater variety on the battlefield.
How can a skill tree (web? maze?) that allows every single person access to the exact same nodes accomplish that?

In the firepower tree, there is no customization for weapon type (excepting LBX and gauss). I cannot be an AC10 specialist any more than any other AC user. I certainly cannot focus and be better with MG's or pulse lasers, or SRM's, or streaks. The bonuses I can get are far too generic.

In the survival tree, I cannot turn one arm into a shield arm or bolster my CT only because I plan on running a STD engine, I can only add structure and armor across my whole mech. (as a total OT tangent, why is the AMS, a weapon, buffed only in the survival tree, and with no ammo/range improvement?)

In the agility tree, what can a light mech do, bonus wise, that an assault cannot? (at least in the survival tree, the structure/armor numbers vary by weight class).

In the sensor tree, I cannot distinguish myself as a significant ELINT platform.

Etc., etc., you get the idea.

I was hoping the new skill tree would really add role warfare back into the game, instead it has just smeared everything together in one big mish-mash. Trying to specialize seems so un-worthwhile (too many useless or at best marginally useful nodes to make that a reasonable goal), so the likely result will be cherry-picking, as best can be done in the maze as a whole, with a little more in some trees than others, depending on your specific goal/build.
<Sigh>

I don't hate the tree, per se, but I am very disappointed. All the lofty goals, all the seemingly attainable ones, and it achieves... none?

Well said, If i tried to write this I would be using far more colorful adjectives