Jump to content

Higher Speed Is Higher Acceleration


9 replies to this topic

#1 MMoonSetW

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 44 posts

Posted 29 April 2017 - 07:30 PM

This thread is about how higher top speed is directly tied to higher acceleration in a vehicle with legs. In short, higher speed alone means more force is used due to the nature of how a vehicle with legs moves, and more force equals more acceleration.

When a mech moves, the length of a step is constant, because the legs have a fixed length and they can only swing the legs forward and backward by so much. The only way to run faster is to swing the legs at a higher frequency. As you will notice in game, for the same chassis a bigger engine with a higher top speed, your cockpit will shake more frequently because you are stepping forward more frequently.

Swinging your legs more frequently also means that your legs have less time to make each swing. Since the legs on a mech need to DECELERATE to stop at full travel and ACCELERATE backward from full travel, more force is needed to make the legs finish a swing. So, the faster a mech moves, the more actual force will be applied to the legs so that they can swing fast enough.

More force applied = more acceleration to the mech because the same legs that swing back and forth are used to accelerate your mech, and Force=mass*acceleration where m, the tonnage of your mech, cannot change, so acceleration increases linearly with force.

A mech with a smaller engine has lower top speed because it fails to provide enough force (fail to drive the myomer enough) to swing the legs quickly enough, and the lack of force will result in a lack of acceleration.

ENGINE DESYNC DOES NOT MAKE SENSE

#2 cazidin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 4,259 posts

Posted 30 April 2017 - 08:56 AM

...You realize that this game is based on technology we had in the 80's and that most robots are powered by compact nuclear reactors, with long range missiles that barely go out a kilometer, particle cannons that are slower than sub-light speed, lasers that don't disperse in an atmosphere, etc?

#3 MMoonSetW

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 44 posts

Posted 30 April 2017 - 09:27 PM

View Postcazidin, on 30 April 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

...You realize that this game is based on technology we had in the 80's and that most robots are powered by compact nuclear reactors, with long range missiles that barely go out a kilometer, particle cannons that are slower than sub-light speed, lasers that don't disperse in an atmosphere, etc?


Sure yeah, and that is not a reason we should get even more ridiculous physics in game.

#4 SmokedJag

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 371 posts

Posted 01 May 2017 - 02:56 AM

View Postcazidin, on 30 April 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

...You realize that this game is based on technology we had in the 80's and that most robots are powered by compact nuclear reactors, with long range missiles that barely go out a kilometer, particle cannons that are slower than sub-light speed, lasers that don't disperse in an atmosphere, etc?


Armor values that completely ignores surface area...

View PostMMoonSetW, on 30 April 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:


Sure yeah, and that is not a reason we should get even more ridiculous physics in game.


If you want anything resembling real physics, the top-heavy Heavy and Assaults will walk like people in orthopedic rehab at best and no one of any tonnage will be cornering like current Lights do.

Edited by SmokedJag, 01 May 2017 - 02:57 AM.


#5 GotShotALot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 124 posts

Posted 01 May 2017 - 04:40 AM

Actually even in present-day engineering, maximum acceleration and/or top speed is not directly tied to engine power. Torque, gear ratios, tire/tread/contact area, stress limits on parts, power transfer limits, engineering limitations all factor in. Plus, since nothing currently compares to myomer muscle technology it's sort of odd to make claims based on the 'physics' of unknown technology.

In fact, it's sort of odd that you would want the tech in an imaginary future semi-sci-fi setting to make sense at all. Sort of like figuring out how 'the Force' can't actually work the way they show it in the movies, because 'physics'. It's almost like you are stretching for a flimsy excuse to support your preferred position on engine desync...

Edited by GotShotALot, 01 May 2017 - 04:41 AM.


#6 Xaims Andrews

    Member

  • Pip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 18 posts

Posted 05 May 2017 - 08:49 PM

View PostGotShotALot, on 01 May 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

In fact, it's sort of odd that you would want the tech in an imaginary future semi-sci-fi setting to make sense at all. Sort of like figuring out how 'the Force' can't actually work the way they show it in the movies, because 'physics'. It's almost like you are stretching for a flimsy excuse to support your preferred position on engine desync...


LOL 'physics'

#7 Insanity09

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Death Wish
  • 551 posts

Posted 06 May 2017 - 12:43 AM

That may be true, but there is also this little thing called inertia that needs to be overcome. The legs may be capable of a particular speed when already in motion, but they are fighting a lot of weight (and friction), so it will still take time to get up to max.
That is why, even for humans, we don't instantly hit our flat out sprint speed, it takes a few strides to get there.

That said, yes, a more potent engine would probably be capable of overcoming inertia more quickly, so yes, faster accel seems likely.

#8 The Basilisk

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,056 posts
  • LocationFrankfurt a.M.

Posted 06 May 2017 - 01:10 AM

View PostMMoonSetW, on 29 April 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

This thread is about how higher top speed is directly tied to higher acceleration in a vehicle with legs. In short, higher speed alone means more force is used due to the nature of how a vehicle with legs moves, and more force equals more acceleration.

When a mech moves, the length of a step is constant, because the legs have a fixed length and they can only swing the legs forward and backward by so much. The only way to run faster is to swing the legs at a higher frequency. As you will notice in game, for the same chassis a bigger engine with a higher top speed, your cockpit will shake more frequently because you are stepping forward more frequently.

Swinging your legs more frequently also means that your legs have less time to make each swing. Since the legs on a mech need to DECELERATE to stop at full travel and ACCELERATE backward from full travel, more force is needed to make the legs finish a swing. So, the faster a mech moves, the more actual force will be applied to the legs so that they can swing fast enough.

More force applied = more acceleration to the mech because the same legs that swing back and forth are used to accelerate your mech, and Force=mass*acceleration where m, the tonnage of your mech, cannot change, so acceleration increases linearly with force.

A mech with a smaller engine has lower top speed because it fails to provide enough force (fail to drive the myomer enough) to swing the legs quickly enough, and the lack of force will result in a lack of acceleration.

ENGINE DESYNC DOES NOT MAKE SENSE


Please not an other "IS THIS REALISTIC??????!!!1111" thread.

A Battlemech is driven by Myomer fibres posing as Muscles for its Legs and Arms assisted by hydraulic and electrodynamic motivators.
So the speed of a mech is defined by the ability of the myomers to contract with a myomer inherent maximum force over a defined maximum length at variable maximum frequency from min contraction to max contraction.
(thats the definition of power output of a machine (P=F*s/T))

Since the maximum contraction force and speed of the myomers is fixed and the maximum way is fixed by the physical proportions of the mech the only variable left for increasing the speed of a mech is the frequency between contractions aka the frequency of the mech pace.

How I see the things from a practical robotics point of view is, that in addition most bi- or multipedal locomotive systems never move with maximum speed of its legassemblys.
So lets just say myomers never contract with maximum speed and the contraction speed can be also be increased to a certain degree (enginecap)

So the only thing you can increase by inserting a bigger power source into a mech is walking speed of a mech but not the force (that would make the mech accelerating faster) with that its limbs are acting.

To increase the force of its limbs you would have to alter the Battlemechs struckture and activatorphalanx --> skilltree movement/mobility section.

So actually enginedesync makes an effin lot of sense.

Edited by The Basilisk, 06 May 2017 - 01:20 AM.


#9 MMoonSetW

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 44 posts

Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:43 AM

View PostThe Basilisk, on 06 May 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:


Please not an other "IS THIS REALISTIC??????!!!1111" thread.

A Battlemech is driven by Myomer fibres posing as Muscles for its Legs and Arms assisted by hydraulic and electrodynamic motivators.
So the speed of a mech is defined by the ability of the myomers to contract with a myomer inherent maximum force over a defined maximum length at variable maximum frequency from min contraction to max contraction.
(thats the definition of power output of a machine (P=F*s/T))

Since the maximum contraction force and speed of the myomers is fixed and the maximum way is fixed by the physical proportions of the mech the only variable left for increasing the speed of a mech is the frequency between contractions aka the frequency of the mech pace.

How I see the things from a practical robotics point of view is, that in addition most bi- or multipedal locomotive systems never move with maximum speed of its legassemblys.
So lets just say myomers never contract with maximum speed and the contraction speed can be also be increased to a certain degree (enginecap)

So the only thing you can increase by inserting a bigger power source into a mech is walking speed of a mech but not the force (that would make the mech accelerating faster) with that its limbs are acting.

To increase the force of its limbs you would have to alter the Battlemechs struckture and activatorphalanx --> skilltree movement/mobility section.

So actually enginedesync makes an effin lot of sense.


You mentioned the myomers never reach max speed, that means the only thing determining the current speed is the acceleration (it always starts from stop at full travel), which only comes with force. So the only way you can make legs swing at a higher frequency is to increase the force applied, and that greater force will make the mech accelerate faster. The thing is a mech's legs, unlike the mech(torso), is always accelerating and decelerating whenever the mech is not standing still, so making the leg movement more frequently means more force is needed.

#10 Marmon Rzohr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Fearless
  • 769 posts
  • Locationsomewhere in the universe, probably

Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:24 AM

View PostMMoonSetW, on 29 April 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

ENGINE DESYNC DOES NOT MAKE SENSE



It makes even less sense when you consider that it's just a blatant global mobility nerf.

It makes doubly less sense when you consider how much this is will lower TTK, especially for lighter mechs.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users