330 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

So among my merc unit that swaps sides about once a month "Clans OP" is our running joke.

We realize that IS has some absolutely terrible builds and their XLs are trash, but we just don't use them, just like how we don't use ERLL for Clan mechs or boat LBX2s or streaks.

Whenever we play on IS we bring good builds, we crush Clan teams. Whenever we play on Clan we bring good builds and we crush IS teams.


Mechs like the Kodiak have been nerfed about 10 times since they came out after getting its overpowered 4 UAC10 build nerfed into oblivion then just got beat down from there to push it in line with the other Clan assaults that no one uses. In faction play having the quad UAC10s actually made it worth the 100 ton weight in a 265 ton drop deck, after the nerf and the drop to 240 ton drop decks you might as well not put all your eggs in one basket. (I'd like to note that my Kodiak gets similar scores to my Hellbringers and Summoners now based on my stats, so definitely no need to waste the 30-35 extra tons with dropdeck limits so tight)

In scouting people whined about streakcrows until PGI banned 55 ton mechs for clanners, meanwhile Griffin 2Ns and Shadow Hawks had always been very capable of killing them quick. Now they whine about Huntsmen while the Bushwacker comes in with more variety for crushing Clanners.


Throughout all this IS have a few top tier mechs rarely seen since Merc Star's activity died down that put Clan mechs of equal weight in their place.

Any good IS unit can just bring in ultra heavy or ultra armor quirked brawler waves and run clanners over or bring in triple LPL builds and stomp when trading.


This forum generally asks that any well performing Clan mech be nerfed, as we saw with the Kodiak, Summoner (really though, a 70 tonner who's main claim to fame was 2 ERPPCs?), Huntsman, and Hunchback IIC just to name some recent examples.

Justifications tend to just be that IS pugs are being devastated by meta builds in their LRM locusts, urbanmechs, vindicators, and stalkers and that the IS XL is terribad.


Honestly my unit and I just find it funny and get a good laugh out of it all. In a week or two we'll be on IS trying out triple Dragon 1C+Battlemaster 2C decks. Does it really not seem a little over the top to anyone else here? Does everyone just go right into the Clans OP narrative without making good builds for themselves, taking them out to fight, only to realize most of the builds around you as an IS pilot outside of a unit happen to be that of what you'd see in an average T5 match?

[FupDup]

People using horribad IS mechs/builds does exasperate the situation, but let's not pretend that the best Clan gundams aren't more than a match for the best IS gundams.

[Nighthawk513]

FupDup, on 06 May 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

People using horribad IS mechs/builds does exasperate the situation, but let's not pretend that the best Clan gundams aren't more than a match for the best IS gundams.

At least clan mechs die when you shoot them...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

FupDup, on 06 May 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

People using horribad IS mechs/builds does exasperate the situation, but let's not pretend that the best Clan gundams aren't more than a match for the best IS gundams.

The thing is here is that the best of each doesn't matter one bit in faction play, it matters in quick play in which you don't want to have certain OP mechs.

In faction play if your faction's best mech is 100 tons and you only have a 240 ton deck (and no 25 tonners) you can only bring one of that best mech. If the other team has 265 tons and their best mech is 85 tons they can bring 2 of that mech.

With dropdecks you will rarely see things like a Kodiak. For Clans the max for Night Gyrs is 2 followed by 90 tons worth of mechs, so at best a 65 tonner and then the Mist Lynx. For IS you can bring a Battlemaster 2C followed by 3 Dragon-1Cs (which currently are the best IS heavy based on quirks, 275 STD and 3 LPL and those quirks mean you tank more than a Timber Wolf and your LPL are heavily quirked ontop of agility boosts)

Now consider that the Dragon *is* tankier than a Night Gyr and its not even the tankiest mech that the IS team is bringing and IS has 3 of them while Clan has only 2 of their precious Night Gyrs. The Night Gyrs may have the advantage in alpha strikes (though not DPS if running dual gauss builds [9.69 DPS for the Dragon and 8.97 DPS for the Night Gyr.]) but they are slower and have less armor.

IS gets speed, DPS, and armor, but loses in range and alpha strike damage here... when we compare a 60 tonner to a mech 15 tons heavier while having 25 extra tons to use in the dropdecks.

There is absolutely no reason why IS should be losing right now other than bringing the wrong builds and being out played coordination wise.

[Y E O N N E]

It also matters in organized play, which FW often is.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

It also matters in organized play, which FW often is.

In organized play the IS team takes full advantage of their tonnage, armor quirks, and best weapons and can stomp a clan team through having more health to chew through while simultaneously having more DPS resulting in a mathematical disadvantage for the Clan team in both total team HP and total team DPS.

[Kubernetes]

The funny thing is that the IS also has the most devastating CW builds for long range maps too. The BLR-1G w/ 6 ERLL and the GHP-5P w/ 5 ERLL are stupidly strong. The only Clan counter is very accurate Gauss/ERPPC fire... but there aren't too many teams that are that good with gauss and peeps.

Seriously, get your whole team to drop with those two mechs on Boreal defense and you'll find that the Clanners can't even open the gates.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kubernetes, on 06 May 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

The funny thing is that the IS also has the most devastating CW builds for long range maps too. The BLR-1G w/ 6 ERLL and the GHP-5P w/ 5 ERLL are stupidly strong. The only Clan counter is very accurate Gauss/ERPPC fire... but there aren't too many teams that are that good with gauss and peeps.

Seriously, get your whole team to drop with those two mechs on Boreal defense and you'll find that the Clanners can't even open the gates.

Not to mention that gauss max range was nerfed so if an IS ERLL mechs with quirks and modules is firing at their optimal the gauss will be dealing about half damage. Gauss being the Night Gyr's main weapons would lead to the Night Gyr dealing 15 from the gauss and 10 from the ppc (with 2.5-5 points of splash).

Wonderful 25 damage trade compared to grass hopper's 45 damage with 5ERLL.

Night Gyr loses by 20 damage per trade while being a 5 ton heavier mech while being slower so that the Grasshopper can kite it. [25 ton drop deck disadvantage intensifies]

Edited by Dakota1000, 06 May 2017 - 07:10 PM.

[R Valentine]

Nighthawk513, on 06 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

At least clan mechs die when you shoot them...

Right, you mean after you kill both side torso or a CT? Because IS mechs fall over with just 1 side torso unless they're std. engine, in which case they have no guns.

[Nighthawk513]

Don't forget that IS has a 20 ton mech where clan lightest is 25, and the 20 ton mechs outperforms the 25 and is almost as good as the 30 ton mech.
So that 25 to difference is actually 30-35 tons.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 May 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Right, you mean after you kill both side torso or a CT? Because IS mechs fall over with just 1 side torso unless they're std. engine, in which case they have no guns.

Have a nice look at the math and realize that a Dragon with an STD engine has more DPS than the meta build Night Gyrs while also having more total armor+structure while also being faster, then come back to me with a real argument.

Honestly, the STD engine = no guns thing is just a bad meme by now.

Edited by Dakota1000, 06 May 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[Novakaine]

Clanners....

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

Have a nice look at the math and realize that a Dragon with an STD engine has more DPS than the meta build Night Gyrs while also having more total armor+structure while also being faster, then come back to me with a real argument.

Seriously soooooo why are they extinct?
Your argument is moot and disingenuous.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Novakaine, on 06 May 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

Clanners....
Seriously soooooo why are they extinct?
Your argument is moot and disingenuous.

Because no one on the IS adapts to meta changes until the meta has changed again. Dragons got gigabuffed a couple patches ago to have super armor ontop of high offensive quirks. Check the stats.

[Nighthawk513]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 May 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Right, you mean after you kill both side torso or a CT? Because IS mechs fall over with just 1 side torso unless they're std. engine, in which case they have no guns.

Funny, I never had much of an issue in ripping apart clanners in the trail Zeus on the alt I made, much less a 5lpl battlemaster. Play both sides, then talk.
Or can you not place all that frontload damage on the clanners and twist away their massive damage spreads?

[Requiemking]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 May 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Right, you mean after you kill both side torso or a CT? Because IS mechs fall over with just 1 side torso unless they're std. engine, in which case they have no guns.

Erm, Clans are kinda good at dealing lots of spreadable damage, which seems OP at first glance, until you realise that, unless you're fighting a 100% CGauss build, it's relatively easy to redirect and minimise said damage.

[Dryderian]

Ahhh, the clan apologists, nice to see you guys and great that your unit did find the sweet spot of dragons and battlemasters, congrats. You realize that many matches in this game are not unit against unit and are not that organized, many groups are formed on the fly. But I appreaciate that IS should from now on play two mechs in a specfic constellation with a leader that calls out targets as yours and be coordianted as yours.

Slow clap...

Edited by Dryderian, 06 May 2017 - 07:30 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

Because no one on the IS adapts to meta changes until the meta has changed again. Dragons got gigabuffed a couple patches ago to have super armor ontop of high offensive quirks. Check the stats.

Well, even then, the Dragon 1C is still not actually good-good, its geometry is still a huge drawback. I've had that one for quite a long time. I'll still take a Rifleman over it more often than not, since the DRG doesn't come into its own unless the match drags a bit.

[Mcgral18]

I would have liked to try a few Spheroid dropdecks.
I like isLPLs
They're powerful weapons


We've come across a few who beat us
Only one due to Terribad Skittles (5 sub 800 damage, to our 7 Man...great)
Against a pair of 4 mans, and Skittles


Boreal both, incidentally.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nighthawk513, on 06 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

At least clan mechs die when you shoot them...

L2A?

Never met a mech, Clan or IS that didn't die, if you knew how to aim.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 May 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

L2A?

Never met a mech, Clan or IS that didn't die, if you knew how to aim.

He may be talking about the fact that Structure Quirks don't show up on the Paperdoll

IE, that Crimson Red Fatlas actually has 20+ HP left
It gets annoying. Of course, not the Fatlas, but maybe the BM2C, a potent robot