43 replies to this topic

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Hello: My PSR is in the first half of a Tier 1 so still learning. I had managed to move my K/D ratio from worst ever of .18 to nearly .60 in the current season, mainly using assaults (the meta: Mad IIc, BLR and KDK-3). But I wanted to branch out and use some ballistic IS heavies and got the Rifleman and Rougneck. I've been having a lot of trouble with them especially the Rifleman (3N and LK) which dies quickly in my hands. ( I've actually suffered a reversal in kills in the assaults too, despite dealing heavy damage, but that's not the main question here.). My question is: how do I keep the Rifleman alive while getting in hits and killing enemies. I know about using cover, using a standard engine not XL, torso twisting, staying back in second line, watching mini map, focus fire (when the team cooperates), and watching target damage, etc. But it seems to me like the enemy is focusing on me even when Assaults are ahead of me bearing down on them. Perhaps I need to wait longer before engaging, but I've learned that the team that hides together dies together. So basically I seem to have hit a wall in my progression as a pilot and my stats are in a nosedive. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Edited by DeloresAbernathy, 13 May 2017 - 08:10 AM.

[Koniving]

Need more information:

What's your armor allocation?
XL or STD engine?
Do you use FLD (Front Loaded Damage as in shoot and it's done) or DOT (shoot and hold it on target) weaponry?

Well you have that you're using a STD engine. How fast?

[Koniving]

Under concentrated fire, no amount of torso twisting will help you. Case in point the Jagermech that tries to protect himself through torso twisting, my superior DPS rig basically makes torso twisting worthless. (ignore the stuff about heat thresholds, PGI will never fix it).

Assault mechs soak a lot of damage, but they eventually overheat (often a lot faster than my demonstrated SHS Atlas). The end game is that assault mechs will exhaust themselves, they do not have endurance. But while the team focuses on the assaults, heavies such as your Rifleman can cool off if your weapons are hot, and even if they are cold that just means you can fire almost indefinitely. In tier one only fools focus the Assaults, it's the heavies and mediums that present the real threats.

Case in point, this four mech lance of two assaults and two heavies, the real threat are the heavies. The one assault is a damage soak and the other is loaded with more LRMs than an entire Field Artillery Battalion of MLRS would have at their disposal.

Edited by Koniving, 13 May 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Koniving, on 13 May 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Need more information:

What's your armor allocation?
XL or STD engine?
Do you use FLD (Front Loaded Damage as in shoot and it's done) or DOT (shoot and hold it on target) weaponry?

Well you have that you're using a STD engine. How fast?

Thanks Koniving .. I'll post details of the build as soon as I get logged back in to the game. But generally speaking as I recall: My speed is in the mid to high 60's. On the LK I have 2xLBx10 with four lasers (ML I think). With the 3N I've tried different ballistics, but right now it's 2xAC10s with four lasers (not sure whether MPL or ML). So I'd say it's a mix of FLD (ballistics) and DOT (lasers). I prefer MPL for lowerfacetime of course but had trouble fitting them on these mechs. I have to check the armor stats. More later. Thanks!

[Koniving]

I assume you are losing your CT more often than STs, given the stated speed? Or is your torso twisting helping by allowing them to take the STs first?

Also -- this might seem unconventional, but have you tried mix-and-matching ballistics? An LB-10x and an AC/10 compliment each other extremely well.

For a multi-ballistic build, an LB-10X and twin AC/5 compliment each other extremely well.

[Koniving]

From what has been stated, however, here's what I can surmise based on the information already given:

Your weapons require you to be fairly close to have their full effect. You hit hard and likely use cover when you can.

It is unknown whether you pop out of the same place each time you shoot (and if you do, stop doing it; tier 1 isn't fun, it's hardcore and unlike many of the lower tiers there are thinking people who are not drunk on the other end of your barrels and they didn't get there by being push overs, they got there by using shitbuckets and by eating, drinking and screwing nothing but MWO.).

What happens when you use said buckets and eat/drink/screw MWO.

There is a long period between firing cycles for all your weapons. This is great for pop-and-squat tactics and good for torso twisting tactics, but this also means you're on equal footing with anyone else using the same tactic, and if you're in a 2 vs 1 scenario you're screwed. There isn't a lot you can do about this using a Rifleman, however. Its just a fact of life.

My biggest concern is that you need to be too close to be effective, and Riflemen draw a lot of attention due to their function as second line batteries and their easy to kill nature. (this is true of any 70 ton mech, they always seem easier to kill than 65 ton mechs).

If you gotta get that close, you could front load all your armor akin to this vid of a Quickdraw with twin AC/10s and a Large Laser going 60+ kph). The trick is then to wait for the right moment to arrive, as you're also slower than mollasses. Everything about the success shown is due to impeccable timing.

This brings us to the second big concern, your mech is slow. This isn't a bad thing. But it also means you aren't tricking anyone either, they know you're rocking it STD. It's too obvious. It also means that if you backpedal, you are not going to be traveling at your 60+ kph either but an even slower speed, thus the only choice is to turn around which is what gets most mechs killed. You could use some alternatives. Sadly I don't have any to provide without knowing more specifics.

Some loose conjecture suggestions could be:

• to have weapons more suitable for long range,
  
• to increase the size of your engine at the cut of something else [aim for 70 kph at least],
  
• potentially gain a better sense of positioning or timing (your weapons are super effective if the enemy is already battered, but you might as well carry peashooters if you arrive too early, especially since you have a standard engine which means not a lot of ammo or heatsinks to back it up).

Edited by Koniving, 13 May 2017 - 10:31 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Koniving, on 13 May 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

My biggest concern is that you need to be too close to be effective, and Riflemen draw a lot of attention due to their function as second line batteries and their easy to kill nature. (this is true of any 70 ton mech, they always seem easier to kill than 65 ton mechs).

RFL is 60 tons, not 70,

Looking up the hitboxes it may be even worse suited for an XL than the Jagermech, however to carry decent firepower and speed it needs an XL.
my rule of thumb for an XL engine is I try the Mech, if I am usualy loosing sides first I go for a standard, if I am loosing the CT first 3 games in 4 I will usualy take an XL.

if you are struggeling with the RFL due to lack of tonage and judge it too risky to take an XL it may be worth considering putting it aside for now and coming back to it in July after the Civil War update, the Light Fusion Engine could be what it needs, the LFE is about 25% lighter than the Standard engine as opposed to the XL engines 50% the weight ^{(discounting the weight of in engine heatsinks)}, and like Clan XL engines it can suvive 1 side torso loss.

I do not own the Rifleman, but if I owned the LK and wanted to run it with a standard engine I would probably forget balistics and run it with large energy weapons and maybe 4 Machine Guns to use up the B hardpoints, ether that or an AC20 with 2 ML and an LPL.
however I am not a tier 1 player so do not know how those would work in tier 1

[Koniving]

That explains it (the fragility). I'm thinking of the Archer in terms of tonnage. Been comparing the Archer and Cataphract a lot lately and how the Cat needs a hitbox update. Though truth be told Riflemen never seemed to be worse than Jagermechs.

Side note: That makes the Quickdraw video even more special, as that's a 60 ton mech walking slower than a snail, sporting twin AC/10s and a large laser, and tanking ungodly amounts of damage while engaging 6 mechs directly.

Edited by Koniving, 13 May 2017 - 10:35 AM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Hi Koniving -- This is all extremely helpful, as always. Thank you. I need to correct something .. I said "Tier 1" so you are assuming I am at a very high level. I meant "Tier 5" -- I was confused because Tier 5 is the first tier you enter. Sorry about being misleading (unintentionally) about that. But here is a link to my RFL 3N loadout -- and you are right it is a close range build. I had forgotten I had to use Small Lasers to have full armor and a STD engine. So it may just not be the right mech if I can't run it with an XL; unless I am prepared to die. Here's the link in case it matters. I will post the RFL LK next. Thanks again!
<a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=387&l=03ce07d182143ab0b68d810423b7bed736e5958a">RFL-3N AC10 4xSL</a>

In case that link is broken heres another I tested:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3b7bed736e5958a

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

HEre is the legend killer: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d7c86770e08f855

This one is 4xML. Again, seems like I need the XL. But let me know your thoughts if you have time.

Thanks again!

[Spheroid]

The 3N needs to be built around AC-5s. Play semi-cautiously at medium range and you will do fine. Unfortunately the Rifleman is going to lose a lot quirks Tuesday which will hurt it greatly.

[Rogue Jedi]

Spheroid, on 13 May 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

The 3N needs to be built around AC-5s. Play semi-cautiously at medium range and you will do fine. Unfortunately the Rifleman is going to lose a lot quirks Tuesday which will hurt it greatly.

The 3N gets -5% cooldown ^{(5% faster rate of fire)} for AC5 but 5% is not realy a game changer so why does the 3N need to be built around AC5?

[Spheroid]

@Rogue: Because ballistic -5%, the loss of fast fire and AC-5 cooldown module five all add up to a serous loss of DPS. Plus with only two ballistics twin AC-2 is too weak. If not AC-5 what else? I stand by my statement. You want another build use a Jager.

Edited by Spheroid, 13 May 2017 - 03:06 PM.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Long story short, the Rifleman was never designed to survive being shot at. From its initial conception, it was built as an anti-aircraft turret with legs which they eventually realised could also shoot at enemy mechs. You're correct in saying that any significantly powerful build requires an XL, but this will decrease your already limited durability. This is in most respects a good example of a mech being balanced.
To make the most of the mech, take advantage of the high positions of the guns - when walking over a hill, you'll be able to shoot earlier and without exposing as much of your mech. That said, I've been known to brawl in practically everything, including the Legend Killer with a pair of LB-10X. The advantage there is that ballistics cause screen shake with every hit, so with any luck you'll blind the other person enough that they can't get a clean shot on you

[Mercworks]

The Rifleman can carry good firepower but it still is basically a beefy medium. Focus on high Alpha and then taking cover instead of DPS. You can spend enough face time with other mechs to really get the licks in. Use an XL for increased firepower and speed, and try to stay far enough back to avoid being the target of focus fire. If the going gets tough, the tough get going....to the nearest patch of cover.

[Koniving]

Heya. Sorry, real life happened.

DeloresAbernathy, on 13 May 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Hi Koniving -- This is all extremely helpful, as always. Thank you. I need to correct something .. I said "Tier 1" so you are assuming I am at a very high level. I meant "Tier 5" -- I was confused because Tier 5 is the first tier you enter. Sorry about being misleading (unintentionally) about that. But here is a link to my RFL 3N loadout -- and you are right it is a close range build. I had forgotten I had to use Small Lasers to have full armor and a STD engine. So it may just not be the right mech if I can't run it with an XL; unless I am prepared to die. Here's the link in case it matters. I will post the RFL LK next. Thanks again!
<a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=387&l=03ce07d182143ab0b68d810423b7bed736e5958a">RFL-3N AC10 4xSL</a>

In case that link is broken heres another I tested:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3b7bed736e5958a

Tier 5, mkay. Crap's a lot easier. Chances are if you're getting killed even when assaults are leading the charge it could just be fear of the assaults (If you don't know how to quickly kill a mech, an assault is absolutely terrifying). I know in tier 4-2, assaults tend to be the focus of all the fire but in tier 1 the goal is to rapidly put enemies down and heavies drop faster than assaults.

So about your 3N... it's worth noting you also do not have full armor. Thankfully not many people go aiming for legs in tier 5. You could shift your small lasers into 2 mediums and shove them into the arms for the same weight. The rear armor is a bit of a joke so there's definitely no retreating...

Is the ammo meant to have two half tons?

Anyway, this is extremely basic. Raised engine to a STD 250 and removed the no longer necessary heatsink (it went from 39% cooling efficiency to 40% cooling efficiency with the change after removing the heatsink; always try to have a 250 engine minimum whenever possible). Enhanced the armor on the legs significantly, reduced the armor on the head a little bit, got you an AC/10 and an AC/5 with two tons of ammo each, an AMS with half a ton of ammo, and changed your small lasers to 2 mediums mounted on the arms (doubt you use the arm crosshair, but this means you 'could' use them to aim high up and down. Useful if you ever wanna try fighting from rooftops or on top of mountains.) I recommend a 3 button mouse, but you can tie the two ACs together if you want.

DeloresAbernathy, on 13 May 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

HEre is the legend killer: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d7c86770e08f855

This one is 4xML. Again, seems like I need the XL. But let me know your thoughts if you have time.

Thanks again!

Here you go.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...968c1e4eebad15b
Traded the 4 MLs for 2 MPLs, traded the STD 240 for an XL 290. Kept both of your LB-10xs but I have also added in 2 MGs. Leg armor was only slightly improved, 1 LBX ammo was traded for 1 MG ammo. Tie the MGs on the same fire button as the MPLs, in terms of mechanics they are almost identical and compliment each other well. 50% cooling efficiency means this thing is good for endurance brawling even on Terra Therma.

I haven't really got any major tips for improving your gameplay beyond waiting a little longer before getting into the fray. And if possible, come at your enemies from the side or even the rear rather than the front.

Edited by Koniving, 13 May 2017 - 05:44 PM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Koniving: I really appreciate you going through this trouble to help someone new. It's really amazing. I had not upped the engine because I had not considered the benefit of the internal heatsinks and looked only at the speed gain. Also I would not have thought to mix the ballistic weapon types or or added MG. Thanks for the build ideas and all the othe rhelp as well.

I do use the arm crosshair (the dot), rather than arm lock -- but its a good reminder that it is especially useful on this mech.

I hope that after all my attention to this the Rifleman is not nerfed to oblivion in the skill tree update. BUt I suppose in theory if I have sufficient Skill Nodes on the mech I can get it close to where it was.

Thanks again, D.

[Paqu]

I was struggling a lot with Riflemans as well, especially with the 3N. I tried several builds with AC5's and 6 med lasers to AC10's and LXB paires with medium lasers and with all of them it really felt like I need way too much facetime to do any meaninfull damage. It really only worked as long as enemy was too busy shooting someone else, but the moment they focused on my the Rifleman simply dies super fast. So eventually I began to hate the whole thing and forgot about it.

However as of late I just decided to give it a go with pair of AC20's... and I have to say its now propably one of my favourite mechs! 20% cooldown and 40% velocity quirks really makes those weapons shine. It runs cool and you require very little facetime. If needed you can alpha twice without overheating (will oneshot fresh Locusts), but if you keep 0,5 second pause with your shots you can keep firing long time even on hot maps. Its still not really a brawler but it can do that as well if it goes to it.

The new skill tree will nerf it and you will lose some velocity and cooldown, but in return you will get more ammo and armor so I think it will still work very well.

I can post you the specific build Iam running bit later once I get on a computer if you are interested?

[Koniving]

DeloresAbernathy, on 14 May 2017 - 03:44 AM, said:

Koniving: I really appreciate you going through this trouble to help someone new. It's really amazing. I had not upped the engine because I had not considered the benefit of the internal heatsinks and looked only at the speed gain. Also I would not have thought to mix the ballistic weapon types or or added MG. Thanks for the build ideas and all the othe rhelp as well.

I do use the arm crosshair (the dot), rather than arm lock -- but its a good reminder that it is especially useful on this mech.

I hope that after all my attention to this the Rifleman is not nerfed to oblivion in the skill tree update. BUt I suppose in theory if I have sufficient Skill Nodes on the mech I can get it close to where it was.

Thanks again, D.

You're welcome and it won't be. Sure the ballistic quirks will go down a bit but the skill tree will pump them back up. Personally I'd go a different direction with some of my "Skuirks" Skill quirks? Quirk Skills? Quills? Heh. Anyway. Velocity is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but we also gotta keep in mind a lot of base weapon stats will also be changing in the upcoming months, too so they might not be as necessary.

What I'm thankful for is that despite the low engines you'll be able to torso twist much faster after that next patch.

Besides, honestly your 3N has the crap end of quirks anyway; lots of weapon quirks but no health quirks, unlike the other Riflemen including the LK.

Far as mixing weapons, well... If you ever get a Jagermech DD, try something crazy like this.

It's a shame that in PGI's interpretation of Battletech/Mechwarrior, the lack of lower arm actuators denies you the ability to aim left and right or you would see a lot more utility out of those arms. (How does lacking an elbow take away your shoulder's ability to pivot? You just wouldn't be able to do it as far as a shoulder + an elbow.)

Imagine if your Rifleman could aim side to side with the arms, like this?

(I do appologise for blasting music, usually I have the music low while I talk over the game but my mic only worked for a fraction of the match so I shrugged it off and just blasted MWO trailer music and some Mechwarrior 2 music by Timothy Seals [whom does a lot of modern remakes of the MW2 music])
A neat thing to pull from this, is that missiles can lock via the + or the o crosshair.

I'm gonna try to make a Rifleman video today.

My own LK.

I'm a bit of an endurance brawler, known for fighting much like this.

Edited by Koniving, 14 May 2017 - 07:57 AM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Wow nice video Komiving. Very intense. I've never seen a flames in action before ... I'm going to give that a try.

And Paque I will try the AC20 on the 3N as well as the AC10/5 build with lasers that Koniving recommended, but my concern is Ghost Heat. I don't think I'll be able to time the shots right when things are happening, and having only one shot to fire at a time seems to me a little limiting, even if it's a big one. Maybe AC20 and AC10.

Thanks again to all for the help!