26 replies to this topic

[GotShotALot]

Looking at the Sensor tree, Target Decay is measured in seconds, but Radar Deprivation is in %. So does 100% Radar Deprivation cancel out all target decay or only part of it.

Because if 100% Radar Dep. cancels all Target Decay then there's not much point in me taking any of it.

Edited by GotShotALot, 18 May 2017 - 08:49 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

sorry but I do not know the answer to this and if there has been no answer as yet it is likely that none of the regular new player helpers know.

that said I strongly suspect the 100% RD equates to loosing the lock 3 seconds faster than without RD but I would need to test it in a private match to confirm this, which I am unlikely to be able to do for the next few days.

[Koniving]

RD was a module and things that were abilities provided by modules have that "100%"
It's a very stupid way of telling us what it does as it requires prior knowledge as if players would have that.

100% is breaks lock as soon as you're out of sight, just like before. As Rogue says, that's 3 seconds faster than without.

Target Decay adds seconds. So it'll let you hold the target after the Radar Derp slips out of your sight but it depends on how many seconds.

Note: If it is possible to get Radar Derp 200% (as I found out it is possible to get Seismic 200%), that basically means that unless Target Decay is coming in 3 second intervals and can be stacked twice, that super radar derp is gonna derp your target stuffs. 200% radar derp is -6 seconds to your ability to hold him as a target after he flies off the handle out of sight. Hard to compete with that.

Edited by Koniving, 18 May 2017 - 05:53 PM.

[Scyther]

You can only get Radar Deprivation to 100%.

Seismic is actually in metres, not %. So the two Seismic nodes are +100m each, for a total of 200m Seismic detection range.

The question is, does 'Reduces the duration of time you remain targeted after breaking line of sight' at 100% effectively mean 'as soon as you break LoS you break target locks'? No matter how much that time is increased by Target Decay it would be broken. (Reducing something by 100% eliminates it, regardless of absolute values).

Unfortunately I don't know the answer, and googling it doesn't provide definitive info post-Skill Tree.

Edited by MadBadger, 19 May 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[Koniving]

I see, 5x 20%...
And yeah Seismic just says 100. They should put in "M"

Who knows what 100% could mean without further explanation, I assume that 100% though would mean the instant you leave sight the lock is lost unless someone has target decay... Yep...

....They made it even more confusing.

[TooDumbToQuit]

THERE ARE 11 SKILL NODES YOU ARE FORCED TO GET TO GET RADAR DERIVATION.

I WAS TOLD THAT "101 ON BUYING MODULES" THAT YOU GET RADAR DERP FIRST.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Target Decay: This makes it so that when you lose line of sight (LOS) on a target, they remain targeted for longer than normal (with both module upgrades, it increases it from 2 seconds to 3.5). This is situationally a good module, but I emphasize situationally strongly. It is practically a must-have for LRM boats and can be useful for lights who are spotting for LRMs and sort of nice for Streak Boats, but it provides a very minimal benefit for anything other than those 3 types of mech. When not in an LRM boat, it can still be useful though. Maintaining a target lock on someone for an extra second and a half can mean that you get target info on their build when you otherwise wouldn’t, it means you can track their movements better (whether they run away or get ready to peek out again so that you can pre-aim your weapons), and it also keeps the target locked for LRM boats if they didn’t have the enemy targeted themselves. Overall, it’s not a bad module, but it also isn’t good enough to be taken over other modules in most situations.


Radar Deprivation: This module is the exact opposite of Target Decay, and makes it so that whenever you break LoS between you and any enemies who have you targeted, they lose their target on you. This is incredibly useful as a counter to LRM boats and is nice even if they have no LRM boats in order to deny targeting information and to keep information about your movements hidden from the enemy for those extra few seconds. There is no mech on which this is not useful, and it is practically a must-have for PUG matches.

http://metamechs.com...ot-skill-guide/

[Koniving]

LikeUntoGod, on 19 May 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

THERE ARE 11 SKILL NODES YOU ARE FORCED TO GET TO GET RADAR DERIVATION.

I WAS TOLD THAT "101 ON BUYING MODULES" THAT YOU GET RADAR DERP FIRST.

That's why you are forced to go through a maze to get to them.
As a module that you could just get, it was extremely overpowered.

Now it's a choice to weigh against other things.
...Problem is it still isn't really a choice.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Full target decay is stronger than full radar derp. So even with full radar derp you won't break the lock immediately when the enemy has full target decay.

Previously LRM boats had often full target decay. But now they might not have it as full, because it takes so much nodes. In same way brawlers often had full radar derp, now not as much.

Previously mixed builds with some LRMs didnt have target decay. Now they have a bit at least. In same way just about everyone will have some radar derp.

I think it's more or less equal, or neutral, these skill tree changes with LRMs.


Biggest change I've noticed with my LRM boats. Previously my LRM range was better than my sensor range, on many mechs. Now it's easy to have significantly longer sensor range, than the LRM range.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 19 May 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Exard3k]

Teer Kerensky, on 19 May 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Full target decay is stronger than full radar derp. So even with full radar derp you won't break the lock immediately when the enemy has full target decay.

How long is *insert time in seconds* -100%? The result is always 0.

[cougurt]

Koniving, on 19 May 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

That's why you are forced to go through a maze to get to them.
As a module that you could just get, it was extremely overpowered.

Now it's a choice to weigh against other things.
...Problem is it still isn't really a choice.

it's a little annoying to me that these filler nodes exist at all. i had previously foregone radar deprivation on my ECM mechs in favor of target info gathering, but now it's simply not worth the investment unless you're going for those stronger nodes anyway.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Exard3k, on 19 May 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

How long is *insert time in seconds* -100%? The result is always 0.

The 100% reduction is from stock time.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5207581

[TooDumbToQuit]

If I have ECM, do I need Radar Derp?

And how important is the extra ECM? To get "Enhanced ECM", I have to get 3 "Target Info Gathering", 5 "Senser Range", 1 "Target Retention 2" (do you need target retention 1 for 2 to work?) and .....2 "Radar Deprivation".

So is the 2 x enhanced ECM worth getting 11 other nodes including "only" 2 radar derp? (it was worse in the PTS)

[TooDumbToQuit]

Looking at it, what does Enhanced ECM + 22.5% even mean?

I can't take a picture to explain what it says.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

All ECM mechs should get at least one ECM node, most should get both. Lights specially long range ones, I think should get two nodes. Because they are fragile and have to often expose themselves to be useful. Same as assults and slow heavies, because they are priority targets for LRMs, specially if they are not long range. I think brawlers and maybe fast mediums like Shadow Cat can make do with one node, depending on what else they can use the nodes for.

Radar derp should be useful for brawlers and such, for longer range ECM mechs no need to take any extra, just then ones you get when you take ECM nodes.

For the ECM nodes and ranges, the above should cover all. It's important to stress that most LRM boats should have quite a lot of sensor range from nodes and probe, and with only one ECM node, they can stll target the ECM mech or it's nearby friends from about 800 meters. You don't want that.

Related to ECM and locks, the hotfix corrected a bug where ECM was not slowing down locks.

https://mwomercs.com...96#entry5742296

Teer Kerensky, on 16 May 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

ECM skill node affects the range at which mechs protected by your ECM are targettable.

Not the ECM bubble range. So normal sensor range is 800. ECM protected mechs were targettable at 200 meters.


(Clan ecm)
The game displays ECM range 90 meters, that's the bubble range. I think it's also the jam range, at which ECM mech jams targetting and target sharing of enemy mechs. Or is the jam range little bit more, I vaguely remember so, but maybe way much older rules?

It displays target range reduction 30%. With two ECM nodes, you can increase it by 2x 22.5%, up to original 75%. So the remaining 25% of 800m is the said 200 meters.

With no nodes, ECM protected mechs are targettable from 800x.07(30% reduction) =560 meters. So no ECM, targettable from 800 meters, with ECM but no nodes, 560 meters.


Probe increases the sensor range so ECM mechs without any nodes, at targettable from quite a far, specially by mechs with probe and sensor range nodes.

In a game just now, I targetted some enemy ECM mech from maybe 800 meters or so. I had probe and much sensor skills, making my sensor range 1224(CAP gives 25% and nodes 28% more, calculated from the base 800m). ECM mech without any nodes, is targettable from 856m. Heh.

Also I had myself ECM with one node. With retreating from a LRM supernova, he managed to fire his LRMs on my back from quite further away than normally. LRM mechs pretty much always have probe and quite many sensor range nodes as well. My Mad Dog LRM boat has same sensor range as my ECM light, 1224.

So he might have managed to target me up to 642 meters. At that range the probe should not counter ECM, so it will slow down the lock, but he will get it.

[Insanity09]

I hadn't realized they made stock ECM so low-value now.

That's a shame. Aside from being a major ECM nerf (for little reason), since most folks now have some amount of sensor range boost, that means if your ECM carrier is to be at all effective you simply must have both ECM skill nodes.

(If the 30% to 560m range is accurate, one skill node would get your detection range down to 380m, which would be marginally acceptable. However, for an enemy who has gotten the 4-5 sensor range nodes to get full radar dep (you could take one decay instead), your detection range is at ~486m or 513m, which is not good at all.)

Sigh. Once again PGI has managed to construct it such that the mists surrounding the illusion of choice are clearing back to the clear reality of forced build.

Edit: I guess this means I go back and rebuild those of my ECM mechs, the ones I'm still skilling up, to remove the ECM device until I've got enough SP to get at least one ECM node, preferably two.

Edited by Insanity09, 19 May 2017 - 05:45 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

As a player that love ECM mechs, And whose Clan account has only ECM mechs with two "all ecm" drop decks, it sucks balls to realize that I have to put skill nodes in a place I did not think they would have to be used.

PGI did not (they never do) explain that ECM was being nerfed.

[GotShotALot]

Okay TY for excellent replies. Now I hate to nitpick, but in previous testing, Adv. Target Decay was at essentially 100% and Radar Deprivation was at 100%. Now, Target Decay comes in 5 'chunks of 0.7 seconds each, and Radar Dep in 5 '20%' chunks.

So, I have a workable answer now - 100% Radar Dep cancels 100% or 3.5 seconds of Target Decay, if I understand correctly, and puts you back at being detected for 2.25 seconds after breaking LoS.

And, if spotter has no Target Decay, you break LoS you vanish. So to me that looks like 100% RadarDep cancels 3.5 seconds of Target Decay. If a player has normal target lock and 2 nodes of Target Decay (meaning 3.65 seconds of target tracking out-of-LoS), then you disappear 'almost' as soon as you break LoS if you have 100% Radar Dep. If spotter has 4 nodes you would stay visible for @1.55 seconds.

So that would make Radar Dep be:
1 Node 20% - Cancels 0.7 seconds of Target Decay (1/5 of 3.5 seconds cancellation)
2 Node 40% - Cancels 1.4 seconds of Target Decay (2/5)
etc.

So 3 nodes of Radar Deprivation (2.1 seconds) just about cancels 'normal' target tracking time (2.25 seconds), and the remaining 2 nodes are needed to offset part of anyone's Target Decay nodes.

If I have misunderstood this or something needs further testing please correct/update me, thanks!

[Rogue Jedi]

LikeUntoGod, on 20 May 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

PGI did not (they never do) explain that ECM was being nerfed.

they did explain that, but that was in the notes for the PTS, I do not think it was in the patch notes, which I agree was a significant oversight.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Rogue Jedi, on 20 May 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

they did explain that, but that was in the notes for the PTS, I do not think it was in the patch notes, which I agree was a significant oversight.

This was something that I was worried about yet I could not get a straight answer about it.

So to get the normal full effects of my ECM, I need to also use two skill nodes for Radar Derp, four sensors skill nodes, four for Targeting Info Gathering and one for Target Retention 200.

So just to fully use the ECM I already have in my Mech, I have to use/waste another 11 skill nodes (and this is part of my point) JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO DO THE SAME THING. We are all building the same mech to a certain extent.

So EVERYONE who has their correct ECM nodes also has the exact same thing as all the others. I was hoping that we would be able to make unique designs but we cannot.

Questions:

Does 40% Radar Derp help a Mech with full ECM?

And does a Mech with ECM need Radar Derp now?

I can't really tell.