99 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Seeing that the IS has much larger skill tree bonuses across the board, are the inherent quirks really necessary anymore?

I think the innate agility on some mechs is too high as it is right now, and there are certainly some mechs that really do not need armor buffs with the advent of an armor skill tree. There are some serious offenders as well...like the BLR-2C. A mech that moves like a TW that has agility quirks, while not have any mobility tree itself, is ridiculous. Especially when that mech is 10 tons heavier and carries a 55 pt alpha that can be discharged completely in ~0.5 sec.

In the search for balance, if we are going to a skill tree that gives quirks in varying amounts...we need to move away from quirks entirely and balance from base values.

[FupDup]

If you gigabuffed the IS skill tree values, sure. Otherwise, this is a massive nerf to the faction as a whole since the "base" quirks are still generally stronger than skill tree quirks.

[Shifty McSwift]

Quirks are fine as an extra way to add some variation between chassis variants. I agree with the idea of just boosting (or nerfing for low to no quirk mechs) most base stats and limiting the quirk list to a concise set for that specific reason. They were way overused as a bandaid for boosting mechs and for some there are just mounds of bandaids that have built up over time.

[Y E O N N E]

The IS has larger bonuses in laser duration and cool-down to the tune of 5% each. Everything else is exactly the same.

Let's not exaggerate things, now.

[Shifty McSwift]

FupDup, on 24 May 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

If you gigabuffed the IS skill tree values, sure. Otherwise, this is a massive nerf to the faction as a whole since the "base" quirks are still generally stronger than skill tree quirks.

He is saying to incorporate them into the base stats too, but I am quite sure the IS skill tree already has some bonuses at the moment too.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 May 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

The IS has larger bonuses in laser duration and cool-down to the tune of 5% each. Everything else is exactly the same.

Let's not exaggerate things, now.

not really Cooldown is 12%(IS) & 9.6%(Clan)

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 May 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

The IS has larger bonuses in laser duration and cool-down to the tune of 5% each. Everything else is exactly the same.

Let's not exaggerate things, now.

This is Gyrok we are talking about. Exaggeration and Clan bias is in his blood.

Gyrok, on 24 May 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Seeing that the IS has much larger skill tree bonuses across the board, are the inherent quirks really necessary anymore?

Of course quirks are still necessary. Huge amount of of IS mechs and some Clan mechs are inherently inferior in design--which means quirks are needed to bring them up to competence.

Gyrok, on 24 May 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

I think the innate agility on some mechs is too high as it is right now, and there are certainly some mechs that really do not need armor buffs with the advent of an armor skill tree. There are some serious offenders as well...like the BLR-2C. A mech that moves like a TW that has agility quirks, while not have any mobility tree itself, is ridiculous. Especially when that mech is 10 tons heavier and carries a 55 pt alpha that can be discharged completely in ~0.5 sec.

In the search for balance, if we are going to a skill tree that gives quirks in varying amounts...we need to move away from quirks entirely and balance from base values.

Ideally PGI should balance base tech first, such as IS XL vs. Clan XL, and IS Endo/Ferro vs. Clan Endo/Ferro. Only then IS mechs will require less quirks. Right now Clan tech superiority simply means those mechs need the quirks to stay relevant.

As for BLR-2C, it is an outlier and something needs to be done about it, but that's one variant out of hundreds in IS. Also, the total time for BLR-2C's 55 damage alpha is 0.67 + 0.5 = 1.07 second. Not 0.5 second. MAD-IIC can shoot 68 damage alpha in 1.15 second, in comparison, from longer range.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 May 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 24 May 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

not really Cooldown is 12%(IS) & 9.6%(Clan)

That's me seeing 7.5% in two places and not counting the number of nodes, heh.

So, the difference is even smaller then.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 May 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

The IS has larger bonuses in laser duration and cool-down to the tune of 5% each. Everything else is exactly the same.

Let's not exaggerate things, now.

They get higher cooldown values as well, higher base agility, higher base accel/decel, more structure quirks, and more weapon quirks on the mechs.

The BLR-1G can get +30% range between quirks and skill tree...

I mean, seriously?

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 24 May 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

This is Gyrok we are talking about. Exaggeration and Clan bias is in his blood.




Of course quirks are still necessary. Huge amount of of IS mechs and some Clan mechs are inherently inferior in design--which means quirks are needed to bring them up to competence.




Ideally PGI should balance base tech first, such as IS XL vs. Clan XL, and IS Endo/Ferro vs. Clan Endo/Ferro. Only then IS mechs will require less quirks. Right now Clan tech superiority simply means those mechs need the quirks to stay relevant.

As for BLR-2C, it is an outlier and something needs to be done about it, but that's one variant out of hundreds in IS. Also, the total time for BLR-2C's 55 damage alpha is 0.67 + 0.5 = 1.07 second. Not 0.5 second. MAD-IIC can shoot 68 damage alpha in 1.15 second, in comparison, from longer range.

You can alpha for 55 damage over ~0.5 seconds and hit 70% heat. I know, I tried it multiple times last night....on my way to a sickening amount of ridiculous score games in group queue. I ran ADRs for the rest of the evening because I felt so dirty for driving the BLR-2C for those 3-4 matches.

[Scyther]

It's Gyrok, exaggerate is pretty much all he does.

Well, other than talk about how Clan pilots are simply better, and IS has no tech disadvantage and needs to stop complaining about it. Until something like an IS bonus crops up of course, in which case all his posts become "IS mechs are now uber, pls nerf".

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

The BLR-1G can get +30% range between quirks and skill tree...

I mean, seriously?

It's +25%. 10% from quirks and 15% from skill tree. And unlike BLR-2C, it doesn't have super durability quirks, and must rely on fragile IS XL. In comparison, all Clan mechs can get +19% range thanks to skill tree + TCMK1.

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

You can alpha for 55 damage over ~0.5 seconds and hit 70% heat. I know, I tried it multiple times last night....on my way to a sickening amount of ridiculous score games in group queue. I ran ADRs for the rest of the evening because I felt so dirty for driving the BLR-2C for those 3-4 matches.

Alphaing 5LPLs severely cuts down on your overall DPS. I'd be glad if my opponents do it all the time. And your Assault Class leaderboard in this season is mediocre. I doubt you did as well as you claimed to.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 May 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[Koniving]

Andi Nagasia, on 24 May 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

not really Cooldown is 12%(IS) & 9.6%(Clan)

So I can shoot 2.4% faster and if I'm using a laser, I might get an extra 5% faster since cooldown doesn't start until the laser finishes.

That's amazing! We must nerf the IS, after all if our IS laser does 5 damage and theirs does 7 damage...wait a minute...

Well what about large pulse lasers? Surely we should nerf the IS because our LPL does 11 damage and theirs does...13?
Huh. You know in tabletop it's 9 and 10 for LPL, meaning 1 digit apart... but Clan gets 2 digits superior to us, and the better range and all the other perks of being Clan at base stats...

Why are we talking about nerfing the IS again?

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 27 May 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

It's +25%. 10% from quirks and 15% from skill tree. And unlike BLR-2C, it doesn't have super durability quirks, and must rely on fragile IS XL. In comparison, all Clan mechs can get +19% range thanks to skill tree + TCMK1.







Alphaing 5LPLs severely cuts down on your overall DPS. I'd be glad if my opponents do it all the time. And your Assault Class leaderboard in this season is mediocre. I doubt you did as well as you claimed to.

IS TCs are coming as well...do we really need to go there?

Koniving, on 27 May 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

So I can shoot 2.4% faster and if I'm using a laser, I might get an extra 5% faster since cooldown doesn't start until the laser finishes.

That's amazing! We must nerf the IS, after all if our IS laser does 5 damage and theirs does 7 damage...wait a minute...

Well what about large pulse lasers? Surely we should nerf the IS because our LPL does 11 damage and theirs does...13?
Huh. You know in tabletop it's 9 and 10 for LPL, meaning 1 digit apart... but Clan gets 2 digits superior to us, and the better range and all the other perks of being Clan at base stats...

Why are we talking about nerfing the IS again?

You do your 11 damage with full double fall off over 0.5 sec with duration quirks.

We get horrendous fall off and apply our damage over 1 sec...for 2 extra damage...that means you trade much better than we do.

EDIT: You can also fire 3 at a time safely for 33 damage. We cannot do that either.

Edited by Gyrok, 27 May 2017 - 09:46 AM.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

I'd like to think PGI is laying the groundwork for the timeline jump. When IS gets all those sweet new toys, I expect some of the remaining quirks will push some mechs into OP country (LFE + crazy structure quirks, etc.). I imagine nerfs will follow.

And I expect there will be a lot of players trying to hang on to that advantage, especially since the IS has spent so much time holding on to the shjtty end of the stick as far as balance goes. Look around; you can see them in these forums, laying the groundwork for that struggle, even now.

One sympathizes.

[Koniving]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

You do your 11 damage with full double fall off over 0.5 sec with duration quirks.

We get horrendous fall off and apply our damage over 1 sec...for 2 extra damage...that means you trade much better than we do.

If we have the duration quirks. Ahem. I mean, uh, "da Skillz"
But assuming we do compared to yours, that's 2.4% better cooldown and 5% shorter duration provided the lack of quirks. Yes it's a bit shorter but that's the trade off for significantly less range and a bit less damage.
Compared to your superior range.
Compared to your lighter equipment.
Compared to your engine.
Etc...

But ironically the real reason you get 2 points extra damage instead of one is pretty simple.
It's a sleeper buff from before the skill tree, because the IS power creeped with the ghost heat allowance and all the god damn quirks.
<.<

In all seriousness though... I'm sure you'll note over the last two years the Clans have had a series of buffs to weapons. AC/UAC shot count. LBX spread. LPL damage buffs, all Clan lasers getting their durations reduced compared to when first released (exception being Clan ER LL). Shorter cooldowns on all Clan missiles across the board. Sure, some necessary engine effects. But for the most part PGI's been trying to combat IS superiority for quite a while.

....except with the significant removal of most quirks, it isn't necessary for the Clans to have so many buffs.
(Keeping the AC shot count buff on the Clan ACs but removing them from the UACs would go a long way to make the ACs viable.)

Edited by Koniving, 27 May 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

IS TCs are coming as well...do we really need to go there?

Of course we must go there. Because IS TC coming up = IS energy range quirk nerfs. Clan tears will ensure that. As is, a lot of IS mechs got their energy quirks removed and reduced in the new ST.

Heck, just the fact IS have heavier and bulkier weapons/equipment/upgrades means Clans by default sacrifices less to mount TC in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 May 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Tarogato]

Gyrok, on 24 May 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Seeing that the IS has much larger skill tree bonuses across the board

Did you even read the patch notes?

InnerSphereNews, on 15 May 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

As mentioned above, the physical layout and core content of all Skill Trees are identical between Clan and Inner Sphere 'Mechs and between weight classes.
Any differences in Skill Node values will be displayed in a table below each section when applicable.

[...]

Node	IS value	Clan value
Range	1%	1%
Cooldown	0.75%	0.60%
Velocity	2%	2%
Heat Gen	0.75%	0.75%
Duration	3.75%	2.50%

I've reformatted the table because PGI's was awful, but go look at it.

All two differences! In cooldown, and laser duration. So much for "larger... across the board."

[The Lost Boy]

to the op,

no.

[Tarogato]

If Gyrok wanted to argue that IS gets larger bonuses from the skill tree "across the board", he should have pointed out how the IS durability quirks compound with the skill tree for an additional 1-3% more HP... across the board.

But he didn't. He missed it. Even though it's kind of a big deal.

But hey whatever floats his boat. Buff clan, I guess. I can get on that train. I don't really play IS mechs anyways. I guess it's okay to chase away the (more than?) half of the loyalist playerbase that does. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯