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Skill Tree...new Pilots, The Price Is High


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#21 Felbombling

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 10:38 AM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 26 May 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

Mechs without skills are actually worse for vets than new players. At least before we had the modules already, so your guns had their range and cool down already added. Now you have nothing. You gain 1 - 2 skill nodes per match played, which is garbage. That's 46 matches to master a mech, plus c-bills. I bought the 5P and did it the hard way, which took me over 8 and a half hours of non-stop play. Add in that the skill tree is a maze of deception and broken promises and you have a recipe for disaster for new players. No one wants to play 46 matches just to master 1 mech.


Were you not playing just as many games, if not more, to Master a Mech under the three to Master system? I have plenty of examples of three to Master taking me around 60+ games over the three chassis. I'd generally stop at Elite with the other two and move forward with my favourite. I know I am tier 3 and all, but it didn't feel as though it was a brutal grind at all. That 46 game estimate seems like a breeze to me, now.

#22 Mechteric

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 10:41 AM

I do like I don't have to buy 3 variants anymore, since often I would just sell off the lesser two of the lot anyway after I used them up for basic. The new system at least does away with that useless need.

#23 R Valentine

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 10:51 AM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 26 May 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Were you not playing just as many games, if not more, to Master a Mech under the three to Master system? I have plenty of examples of three to Master taking me around 60+ games over the three chassis. I'd generally stop at Elite with the other two and move forward with my favourite. I know I am tier 3 and all, but it didn't feel as though it was a brutal grind at all. That 46 game estimate seems like a breeze to me, now.


Definitely less games under the old system. Basic goes super fast, and once all mechs are basiced you only needed the play the variants you wanted. 91 skill points was always a stupid number. They should have lowered it long before they considered sending it to testing, let alone live.

#24 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:01 AM

What are you kidding me OP? To fill a skill tree it is like 4 million, that is less expensive than 1 of the better modules, and that doesn't include the cost considerations of buying 2 additional mechs to skill them out and the other 3 modules that vary between 2 and 6 million each.

Could have sworn this would be a cazidin post but the OP seems serious Posted Image

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 May 2017 - 11:04 AM.


#25 Rodrigo Martinez

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:08 AM

Most good thing in the old system - you can't go wrong. You weren't being punished for your wrong decisions.

#26 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:15 AM

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Most good thing in the old system - you can't go wrong. You weren't being punished for your wrong decisions.


Not really, if you took hill climb or capture accelerate you were definitely worse off than if you took seismic or radar dep.

Even if you make "bad" choices in the skill tree you are still getting advantages, you can't spend 91 SP and end up with no bonuses.

#27 Mechteric

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:19 AM

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Most good thing in the old system - you can't go wrong. You weren't being punished for your wrong decisions.


Most bad thing in the old system - everyone had everything. Mobility, firepower, seismic, radar dep, everyone could easily have all of that. And it was boring.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 26 May 2017 - 11:20 AM.


#28 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:20 AM

Consider that to be fully efficient in the old system, and have a dropdeck of 4 mastered mechs with modules in you are looking at between about 200 million and 400 million, depending on your mech and module choices, but assuming you are using the good ones of course.

The new price of buying and leveling up a dropdeck is about 35 million to 70 million.

Nuff said.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 May 2017 - 11:25 AM.


#29 Rodrigo Martinez

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 12:40 PM

But now I have to pick up things I don't want. Flexibility in the old system were better

View PostShifty McSwift, on 26 May 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:


Not really, if you took hill climb or capture accelerate you were definitely worse off than if you took seismic or radar dep.

Even if you make "bad" choices in the skill tree you are still getting advantages, you can't spend 91 SP and end up with no bonuses.


I can easyly revert anything in old system by switching modules. If I take a cooldown module and after one-two battles I see that it's not as good as I expeced I just remove it. But now I can unlock the whole survival tree and then understand that it's not what I want, maybe mobility will be better. After all I decide that the full sensor tree can improve my efficienty. And etc etc. How much time I have to play with every mech to unlock all nodes and then back to builds I had?

Before the patch for any mech I needed 1750 GXP and some modules to test different builds and to understand if I will keep a mech or if I don't like it. With module system I could get almost max mech performance even on basic level. Now I've lost the possibility to test mechs with good efficienty without playing 40+ matches.

I tried to start play in a newbie mode. With a mech I don't know and don't have any SP on it. Getting 1-3 SP per match. Now I'm sure only in the operations tree and maybe weapon. After 7-8 matches I'm not sure do I like this mech or no. But I still have to play many more matches to get at least max weapon performance.

Or maybe I should do as some people do - have 3 KDK-3, 3 NTG-D, 3 TBR-C and some ACH?

#30 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 12:52 PM

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

I can easyly revert anything in old system by switching modules. If I take a cooldown module and after one-two battles I see that it's not as good as I expeced I just remove it.


You still paid 3 million for it.

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

But now I can unlock the whole survival tree and then understand that it's not what I want, maybe mobility will be better. After all I decide that the full sensor tree can improve my efficienty. And etc etc. How much time I have to play with every mech to unlock all nodes and then back to builds I had?


If you unlocked every node in the survival tree without thinking it through, particularly more than once then I don't know what any system can do for you... Did you used to test buy hillclimb modules on all your mechs previously too? Just for the testing purposes? I mean c'mon.

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Before the patch for any mech I needed 1750 GXP and some modules to test different builds and to understand if I will keep a mech or if I don't like it. With module system I could get almost max mech performance even on basic level. Now I've lost the possibility to test mechs with good efficienty without playing 40+ matches.


1750 GXP? For all the skills for 3 mechs for mastery and the XP cost of modules? What patch was this? Even basic skilling a mech was some 15k XP, the modules were something else entirely, some 4000 GXP (and 3 million cbills) to unlock level 5 weapon modules. More for the good enhancement modules. What am I missing here?

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

I tried to start play in a newbie mode. With a mech I don't know and don't have any SP on it. Getting 1-3 SP per match. Now I'm sure only in the operations tree and maybe weapon. After 7-8 matches I'm not sure do I like this mech or no. But I still have to play many more matches to get at least max weapon performance.


It is likely true the grind is longer for skilling an individual mech to "basic" levels is longer, but mastery is much cheaper and faster overall.

#31 JC Daxion

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 12:54 PM

well, I bought a warhawk, and direwolf.. the money i saved not buying 2 more of each i have enough cash to skill up 15 mechs.

#32 JC Daxion

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 01:07 PM

View PostRodrigo Martinez, on 26 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:



I tried to start play in a newbie mode. With a mech I don't know and don't have any SP on it. Getting 1-3 SP per match. Now I'm sure only in the operations tree and maybe weapon. After 7-8 matches I'm not sure do I like this mech or no. But I still have to play many more matches to get at least max weapon performance.




You needed the same amount of XP to unlock your skills as you had before.. (and then add on another 70k on mechs you might not even play just so you could unlock elites..) Play a few matches, unlock a box, play a few more under the old.. New is play a few matches add 4-5 skill points, play a few more. I see zero difference.

Modules were an add on after the mech was mastered, and tough crap if you had more than one weapon, you had to choose which one got a boost, and some mechs you only had one module in the first place. the module system let you add cool down to one weapon, now you get it to all, for about the same price as single wepaon module. (there were well over 30 weapon modules then mutliple that if you played both IS and clans.. Just having a single weapon module of each was over 200m


By the time you play 40 matches, about what you would take to unlock elites under the old system, you would have the mech mastered. I have zero clue how this way takes longer.

Under the new system i have skilled up 4 new mechs complete, 2 nova's and a warhawk and dire from scratch.(that is almost done) My clan account has no GSP.

Having had the account for a year now, i still barely had weapon modules i needed unlocked. I had enough modules to use on a couple of mechs as long as they had either lpl, mpl, ML or uac10.. and i just started buying them almost a year after starting the account as i bought some mechs first to have a little variety.

Now, i have 4 new mechs skilled up, enough points to skill up another 15 mechs that i masterd under the old system.

SO 1 year, i had enough modules to load up a few mechs. and many moudles not even unlocked yet. After 4 years, i had finally unlocked my last weapon module on my Main account. thats 4 YEARS!!!!

after the switch i have a bank load of cash because it took me about a yaer to get to the point i actually had the money and GXP to unlock things. Another 2 weeks my entire account of 36 mechs will be finished.. and i got 100m in the back, and 5 new chassis. Under the old, minus 5 chasis, and no money, and a good 6 months to a year grinding c-bills to get to around 8-10 fully kitted mechs, just to load up my 2 standard drop decks, and maybe a mech or two for quick play fun.

Edited by JC Daxion, 26 May 2017 - 01:10 PM.


#33 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 01:10 PM

View PostJC Daxion, on 26 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

well, I bought a warhawk, and direwolf.. the money i saved not buying 2 more of each i have enough cash to skill up 15 mechs.


Even with the price variation in mechs and ignoring the three mech rule entirely. It was still substantially more expensive to grind out all the skills and modules for a new player's first mech. With module swapping that comes down eventually, but if you wanted to "test" all the modules in the previous build you are talking some ridiculously high price that isn't even worth calculating.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 May 2017 - 01:10 PM.


#34 Rodrigo Martinez

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 01:46 PM

View PostShifty McSwift, on 26 May 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:


You still paid 3 million for it.



If you unlocked every node in the survival tree without thinking it through, particularly more than once then I don't know what any system can do for you... Did you used to test buy hillclimb modules on all your mechs previously too? Just for the testing purposes? I mean c'mon.



1750 GXP? For all the skills for 3 mechs for mastery and the XP cost of modules? What patch was this? Even basic skilling a mech was some 15k XP, the modules were something else entirely, some 4000 GXP (and 3 million cbills) to unlock level 5 weapon modules. More for the good enhancement modules. What am I missing here?



It is likely true the grind is longer for skilling an individual mech to "basic" levels is longer, but mastery is much cheaper and faster overall.


I buy a module only once. And it's a thing which I can put on any of my mechs. Time investment which stays with me. I agree, that mastering and configuring well known mechs is better now. But I like to play new mechs or even strange builds which I've spotted on youtube. 1750GXP - basic cooling wich was enough for me to start playing any mech.

About the surv. tree. There is mechs with armor and structure bonus. What's better - improve armor and structure or invest in a mobility? It's not a choosing between hill climb and rad. dep cuz it's obvious that rad. dep is a best choise.

For me new system much worst than previous. I'll say again, that I would like current tree but if I can reset it and get all points back.Then it will be real customization with acceptable amount of grind.

#35 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 02:22 PM

View PostChados, on 26 May 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

I'm tweaking a Rifleman, the only mech I'm actively dropping nodes here and adding nodes there on. The rest get what looks to me to be an optimal nodeout for their role and done.

Dropped 9 nodes when I realized that I needed more heat management and decided not to spend GSP. I used the mech's personal HXP/MXP pool. I had 180,000 MXP on the mech at the patch so I have plenty.

9 SP cost over 400,000 Cbills.

It's gonna be a very long time before a stone noob can manage to make her first million. It was over a year in the old system before my balance broke a million and two years plus several events before it broke 100 million. The learning curve just leaned past vertical into negative territory. The difference between a skilled out 91 node mech and a brand spanking new one is tremendous. Noobs won't earn jack for a very long time in an unskilled mech. PGI, please figure out a way to give noobs at least one mastered mech at the end of the Academy.


If it took you a YEAR to get a million Cbills, then you are on the wrong forums because you weren't playing MWO. This is also obvious because MWO has a new player cadet bonus worth several million Cbills. I have to report this as a troll thread since it is so blatantly incorrect.

#36 JadePanther

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 06:47 PM

well the skill tree is gonna be most brutal on noobs that buy stuff think its bad and then have to buy other stuff then have to go back and re activate **** wasting tons of XP time money etc..

not to mention the skill tree gap between them and anyone who has skills on thier mechs..

#37 pzUH

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 07:55 PM

At least it has some kind of progression & achievement. Even though a single node's effect is negligible. But still, if I can buy something just after won 1-2 QP, then it feels better.
Unlike the old system while I need a long grind for nothing.

#38 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 08:08 PM

View PostChados, on 26 May 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

I'm tweaking a Rifleman, the only mech I'm actively dropping nodes here and adding nodes there on. The rest get what looks to me to be an optimal nodeout for their role and done.

Dropped 9 nodes when I realized that I needed more heat management and decided not to spend GSP. I used the mech's personal HXP/MXP pool. I had 180,000 MXP on the mech at the patch so I have plenty.

9 SP cost over 400,000 Cbills.

It's gonna be a very long time before a stone noob can manage to make her first million. It was over a year in the old system before my balance broke a million and two years plus several events before it broke 100 million. The learning curve just leaned past vertical into negative territory. The difference between a skilled out 91 node mech and a brand spanking new one is tremendous. Noobs won't earn jack for a very long time in an unskilled mech. PGI, please figure out a way to give noobs at least one mastered mech at the end of the Academy.


It doesn't take a year to get a million C-bills. Even a noob is going to earn 50k C-bills per match without premium and don't forget the Cadet bonus.

However, the problem with the skill tree is how long it take you to get your mech into some type of competitive shape.

Under the old system, 750 XP bought you Cool Run....7.5% cooling efficiency right there. That is less than the cost of one node now. 1000XP more and you had heat containment that gave you 10% higher heat threshold. Another 1000 XP and you got a 22.5% Acceleration Bonus. 1500 XP more and your decellerating 25% better. 3500 XP got you a 10% turning bonus. Basically 7750 XP, something even a bad player would be able to knock out in 15 matches or so would give them a huge huge bonus to their mechs performance.

Now under the new node system 7750 would only buy you 9 nodes. What the hell do you get with 9 nodes? Barely nothing that is what. Now under the new system you would have to invest something like 40 nodes give or take to get the same benefit as the 7750 XP would have gave in the old system. That is 32,000 XP or more than 4 times the amount of XP to get to the same point. So lets say 60 matches if your a new player barely getting by.

So the reality is, mastering a single mech is much cheaper in C-bill cost due to the removal of the 3 mech rule, but the XP grind on that individual mech is fairly brutal. If you do it the hard way, your going to be grinding alot of matches with a gimped mech before you can even remotely bring it up to a somewhat competitive level.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 26 May 2017 - 08:10 PM.


#39 BurningDesire

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 08:55 PM

there where some pros to the old system. Like maybe one of the three variants you buy is something you would never normally play only to find you love it over the one you though was going to suit you.
of the three variants you buy you could sell the ones you disliked using and regain some cbill loss. With the new system you start spending cbills in the skill tree ontop of the mech only to realise you hate it, so you finish leveling it and want to sell it all that cash wasted on a mech you wont keep with your four mechbays.
Hell i remember when i started i couldn't afford a ER PPC so i had to make do with what i had and it took me ages to afford one. Put that ontop of the fact you are getting pounded into the dirt cause you haven't worked out the learning curve yet. Earning bugger all cbill cause you suck only to have to spend even more cbills on skill tree nodes cause without it your experience only makes you start to resent playing a mech, to then not have enough cbills to afford even one new variant.

With the old system it was ages before i could afford a radar derp mod, and i was so thankful when i had saved enough to afford one. I was also thankful i could swap it. Now what i see i cant get people to stick with ther game because lurm spam in lower tiers is real

#40 Jubblator

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 09:38 PM

Actually incrementally adding smaller bonuses to your mechs as you play, looking for what the biggest issue with the mech is for your playstyle and then improving that aspect with the skill tree one step at a time is extremely satisfying for me ( i even do that with mechs i can outright master) and something i highly recommend for anyone playing with their mech first time with the new skill tree.

Tbh outright mastering a mech is the most stupid thing you can do right now without proper testing imo, because you might not need that 0.75 heat but you might have really needed some other node.
I for one only take 40% radar dep, instead of the 60% that i thought i needed, this alone saved me a investment of 2 points (3 if i count avoiding seismic) since that is all i need to have no issues with LRM rain.

If you think 7 points to get radar dep is expensive then i dont know what planet you live on. That stuff was freaky expensive before, im not talking about the c-bills that was easy but grinding the Gexp for it was straight out painful.

Another thing people overlook frequently, you had to chose what cooldown modules to use for your weapons, you had 3 or 4 different ones then you were mostly screwed. Now it can affect all of them, same with range etc.
Not to mention the skill that gives more ammo per ton. Seriously this skill tree makes for a HUUUGE improvement over the old.

The old was, "fill this in because everyone else will to be competetive" to the new that allows you to min max your mech to complement your playstyle. I do think that there will be some cookiecutter setups for mechs eventually but i will not feel like i have to pick 60 or even 100% radar dep since i make due with 40, where some might not. Now i have the choice and i seriously like it.

So overall im very happy with the current development of the game and hope to support it for a long time.





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