55 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

One of the things I am wondering about regarding the evolution of the Battletech technology is - where the Clans (and even the Helm Memory Core technology) just built in to sell new material via power creep, or did it also address perceived flaws about the game so far?

Basically with XL Engines and Endo-Steel, mechs can start loading up more weapons than before ,and with double heat sinks they can also afford to do it. Mechs can also get faster. Clan Tech even add additional range to most weapons.

These are clear examples of power creep, but if BT veterans look back - was it also more enjoyable to play the game with such mechs? Did the original rules feel limiting?

[Wildstreak]

Why Clans were invented is actually a better question for one of those HBS streams where you can ask Weisman or someone who was around back then about it. Happened when someone asked how the Awesome's name came about at PDXCON recently.

As to more enjoyable, depends on you.
Some like myself prefer the simplicity and balance of 3025 era.
Some like the Clan Invasion era and it is probably the most popular one.
Some like Jihad.
Some Dark Age.

As for limiting, not really. They were more open and flexible, creative people could invent ways to deal with things. Sad the RPG never got much attention. There were a few things going even back to core rules that were broken.
- Boating was actually allowed even back in core rules, just hardly anyone did it.
- They never put out rules for making FrankenMechs.
- While the 3025 society was portrayed as suffering tech wise and scavenging for parts, if you got into the RPG, you found this strange thing where average techs would quite often be really good at repairing things and your unit repairs went quite well.
- They originally portrayed some Mechs having interesting problems like lasers that did more heat and less damage plus locations that could not carry full armor and structure. This was to reflect the nature of the era. Again, if you got into the RPG and learned how it handled techs repairing things, you would find no rules to simulate these problems and repairs were much better than described.

[MustrumRidcully]

I figure people that played the game for a long time might notice if they thought somethnig was missing. of course, it's a multi-dimensional problem and hard to reduced to one factor.

But look at a mech like the Charger. A "Scout Assault" mech might be a weird idea in the first place, but if we go with it: To get a decently fast Assault Mech, a STD 400 Engine is really heavy. There isn't much tonnage left for the mech's weaponry. Of course, picking 5 small lasers might be the worst idea to use for that limited tonnage, but even a more "realistic" loadout of 3 or 4 medium lasers isn't really much. This means the rules definitely limit your mech design space.

With an XL Engine, you could suddenly cram in something like an extra 20 tons of weaponry on the mech, making it a bit more interesting to play.

Quote

- Boating was actually allowed even back in core rules, just hardly anyone did it.

I think boating is not very important in the table top rules, since every wepaon requires its own to hit roll and its own hit location roll, and the Pilot's first attack is as good as his 10th attack in a turn. Once you try to translate the game into real time with a single player having to manage all that, this isn't true anymore. Trying to manage 3 different weapons with different bullet drop and usage characteristics is actually hard.
Even if every weapon would need to be chain-fired in MW:O, this would still encourage boating. But since we can fire them as groups, it gets extra effective to do so.

If I were to remake Battletech rules, I would probably put in some rules that model this. (You can group-fire identical weapons, and additional attacks would become harder).

To enocurage mixed loadouts, I would probably adjust the construction rules.
(Something like: "If you install even more energy weapons, the whole mech's wiring gets more complicated and needs stronger components so you don't get short-circuits or melting cables." or "If you install even more ballistics, the ammo transport system in the mech will get a bit more complicated and need extra space and tonnage.")

[James The Fox Dixon]

Not for me it isn't. I didn't like the huge power creep that occurred with the introduction of the clans. I also didn't like what they did with the clans by turning them from Republic loving dedicated to freedom and liberty to Stalinist Marxists with warriors being the top dogs.

I will always stick with 3025 and earlier eras like the Star League era under the Cameron's. The tech is just balanced and the Star League tech didn't overpower regular tech. With clan tech, anything made by the clans is 10 times better than what the SLDF fielded and it never passed the logic test. That logic test is that when the SLDF left they didn't have any of the schematics for any of the tech they had. Reality and logic said that they should have progressed back to the stone age as they attempted to recover the base IS tech from existing mechs. By the time they invaded they should have been on par with the IS not overpowering them.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 01 June 2017 - 07:00 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

Not for me it isn't. I didn't like the huge power creep that occurred with the introduction of the clans.
*snip*
will always stick with 3025 and earlier eras like the Star League era under the Cameron's. The tech is just balanced and the Star League tech didn't overpower regular tech

If the Clan technology had been the baseline/only tech from the beginnig, what would you think? There wouldn't be a power creep in any sense of the word, but the power level of individual mechs would be higher - more guns, faster speed.

[Metus regem]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

If the Clan technology had been the baseline/only tech from the beginnig, what would you think? There wouldn't be a power creep in any sense of the word, but the power level of individual mechs would be higher - more guns, faster speed.

Along those lines, my gorup has re done the clans, rather than give them clan spec equipment, we gave them full IS tech 2, upto 3068. We found that this made them more balanced against IS tech 1 and early tech 2 mechs. For instance rather than a 200 series CN9-A or a 300XL CN9-D, the "Star League Crusade Force" as we called them, ran with a CN13-O Centurion that used a 250 LFE, Endo, 11 DHS, 1 UAC/10 with 2t of ammo, 2 IS ERML and 1 x ALRM/5 with 1t of ammo all wrapped up in 10t of LFF armour. This proved to be a logical progression to the CN9-A, that we felt would be reasonable for a group that left the IS, would have to establish a working society and tech base, while at the same time advance tech over time. We did civil war tech updates and effective tweaking on a lot of mechs, as well as making them all Omni mech versions of older IS mechs.

After that was all done, we found that everything was much more balanced between IS and the "SLCF" and that the games we much, much more fun.

[James The Fox Dixon]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

If the Clan technology had been the baseline/only tech from the beginnig, what would you think? There wouldn't be a power creep in any sense of the word, but the power level of individual mechs would be higher - more guns, faster speed.

I think it would have been a terrible design choice to make IS tech much worse in comparison. Like I said, logically the clans would not have such a huge tech advantage since they didn't have any of the schematics for the tech they had. They should have been on par with IS all things considered.

[MustrumRidcully]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

I think it would have been a terrible design choice to make IS tech much worse in comparison. Like I said, logically the clans would not have such a huge tech advantage since they didn't have any of the schematics for the tech they had. They should have been on par with IS all things considered.

Oh, you misunderstand me - I mean there is no IS level of tech. Everyone has Clan level of technology from the start. No tech difference basically, but the tech at the level of the Clans. Meaning more heat sink capability, less engine weight, more rangem, more damage.

[James The Fox Dixon]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Oh, you misunderstand me - I mean there is no IS level of tech. Everyone has Clan level of technology from the start. No tech difference basically, but the tech at the level of the Clans. Meaning more heat sink capability, less engine weight, more rangem, more damage.

That destroys the flavor of the universe for me and makes it like Robodreck. I like the fact that mechs are invaluable and human life is cheap. I like that mechs have built in flaws ala IS 3025 tech. I don't like tech that does away with the flaws. I might as well play Robodreck by Palladium.

[MustrumRidcully]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

That destroys the flavor of the universe for me and makes it like Robodreck. I like the fact that mechs are invaluable and human life is cheap. I like that mechs have built in flaws ala IS 3025 tech. I don't like tech that does away with the flaws. I might as well play Robodreck by Palladium.

I am not sure what you mean with built-in flaws. 3025 IS Tech has no flaws in and on itself, does it. Only when you compare it to Clan technology does it seem weak.

There could still be faction difference, but for the sake of the argument, let's say we're in 3025. There are no Clans to compare to. But the Hunchback 4G would have something like the Hunchback IIC Stats, the Marauder would have the Timber Wolf stats, the Cataphract would have the Summoner stats. (OR alternatively, the Hunchback 4G comes with an Ultra AC/20, 2 Medium Pulse Lasers and a ER Small Laser, it's structure weighs only 2.5 tons instead of 5 tons, and its walk speed is 1 hex faster due to a larger engine. )

[James The Fox Dixon]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

I am not sure what you mean with built-in flaws. 3025 IS Tech has no flaws in and on itself, does it. Only when you compare it to Clan technology does it seem weak.

There could still be faction difference, but for the sake of the argument, let's say we're in 3025. There are no Clans to compare to. But the Hunchback 4G would have something like the Hunchback IIC Stats, the Marauder would have the Timber Wolf stats, the Cataphract would have the Summoner stats. (OR alternatively, the Hunchback 4G comes with an Ultra AC/20, 2 Medium Pulse Lasers and a ER Small Laser, it's structure weighs only 2.5 tons instead of 5 tons, and its walk speed is 1 hex faster due to a larger engine. )

Flaws as in heat generation, movement speeds, etc... all in the name of compromise.

[MustrumRidcully]

James The Fox Dixon, on 01 June 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Flaws as in heat generation, movement speeds, etc... all in the name of compromise.

Well, it shoudn't be that hard to make such flaws with Clan tech. It would all be at a higher level. (And if I am not mistaken, there are very hot or slow Clan mechs).

[STEF_]

I enjoyed everything in BT, except after 3060.

Dark and jihad were cancer.

[Metus regem]

Stefka Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I enjoyed everything in BT, except after 3060.

Dark and jihad were cause cancer.

FTFY

[C E Dwyer]

3025 because it was for me the whole point of the Franchise.

As soon as the tech came back, I lost interest

[Karl Streiger]

Stefka Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I enjoyed everything in BT, except after 3060.

Dark and jihad were cancer.

See my signature

I like the post apocalyptic setting - so 3rd Succession War
From the narrative perspektive the Jihad is great if you are not a single minded purist.
Dark Age another catalyst - but very enjoyable to play - you have mixed tech and a boat load of offensive and defensive systems

Well strictly I like all eras but the time frame covered by the 60 novels

3028-3067 the era of Mary Sues space magic and Ponys


About flaws
4G left Torso - 1st crit=kill
11 heat sinks Urban Mech
Riflrman not enogh armor and heatsinks
Sentinel, Hermes II - Mechs with AC5 as primary weapon - most would be better with Large Laser or PPC
.

About the Charger- engine weight was to balance the 5/8 movement that was above average together with solid armor to hard to beat - plus physical combat - Charge of a Charger had damage potential of 64 points - or combined fire power of 6- 7 LRM15

[Metus regem]

Karl Streiger, on 01 June 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

See my signature

I like the post apocalyptic setting - so 3rd Succession War
From the narrative perspektive the Jihad is great if you are not a single minded purist.
Dark Age another catalyst - but very enjoyable to play - you have mixed tech and a boat load of offensive and defensive systems

Well strictly I like all eras but the time frame covered by the 60 novels

3028-3067 the era of Mary Sues space magic and Ponys


About flaws
4G left Torso - 1st crit=kill
11 heat sinks Urban Mech
Riflrman not enogh armor and heatsinks
Sentinel, Hermes II - Mechs with AC5 as primary weapon - most would be better with Large Laser or PPC
.

About the Charger- engine weight was to balance the 5/8 movement that was above average together with solid armor to hard to beat - plus physical combat - Charge of a Charger had damage potential of 64 points - or combined fire power of 6- 7 LRM15

Out of the Charger family, I found that I prefered the slower A5 over the A1... The fire power difference was staggering.

A1
5 x SLas

A5
1 x AC/20
2 x SRM/6
1 x MLas

All that was traded was 1 walking MP for a massive jump in 0-9 hex damage possibility... Then there was the A9, when used with A5's made for a fantastically powerful combo...

A9
1 x SLas
4 x MLas
2 x LRM/20

Take 2 A9's to cover the advance of two A5's and you get a great 1-2 punch against an opposing lance.

[STEF_]

Karl Streiger, on 01 June 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

About the Charger- engine weight was to balance the 5/8 movement that was above average together with solid armor to hard to beat - plus physical combat - Charge of a Charger had damage potential of 64 points - or combined fire power of 6- 7 LRM15

Always hoped PGi were going to implement at least charge (and DFA), if not every melee. It would have been a big plus for the Executioner, for instance.

[evilauthor]

Stefka Kerensky, on 01 June 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Always hoped PGi were going to implement at least charge (and DFA), if not every melee. It would have been a big plus for the Executioner, for instance.

I can only imagine what that would do in your typical MWO traffic jam. Half a team could fratricide each other just leaving the drop zone before they ever catch sight of any OpFor.

[MustrumRidcully]

I suppose one could minimize that if Charge only dealt extra damage against enemies, as non-realistic as that might seem.


Overload (a Descent successor) has a charge attack, too. IIRC, When you activate the abilty your other weapons are locked out, and then hitting an enemy deals (more) damage. Something similar could work even in MW:O if there are no new animations. The weapon lockout prevents it from being "always on". And makes it obvious when to use it - when you stand around disarmed on the battlefield and can't do much else.