73 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. What are some of the likely changes that PGI will make to energy weapons in the upcoming balance pass? What would you like to see changed and what would you recommend?

[OrmsbyGore]

I hope they triple the heat of all laser weapons, this long range laser poke meta makes me sick. At least gauss/PPC requires skill to use

[Monkey Lover]

After IS gets its er lasers to balance out I will be happy. I don't want any crazy changes.

Some small balancing to cerl(buff) is lpl (nerf)and is small(buff) I could see.

[Ruar]

I doubt we can guess. We don't know the stats of the new tech coming in and any balance they do now is going to be in relation to the new tech.

[Mcgral18]

Expected?

isLPL nerf
cSPL nerf


Aside from that, they also state:

Quote

provide better role definition between the different Energy types, and most importantly, foster a better baseline balance between IS and Clan Energy weapons.

Two things
Better baseline balance between the Clam and Sphere lasers means either completely Shafted clam Small class, or significantly buffed Spheroid smalls (by Mecha Cthulhu, they are complete trash)

But role definition between different Energy Types?
Does that include ER?

So, Standard Laser, Pulse Laser, and ER Laser

At the moment, all function identically
Burn, cooldown, refire

They played around with giving Pulse Lasers better DPS...but their previous example was a complete farce

Spoiler

Pulse Lasers
The Large Pulse Laser has proven to be fairly disruptive under the context of Energy Draw. We have attempted to maintain its previous weapon properties as much as we could under the previous directions, but it has become increasingly clear that something has to give; despite its increased Tonnage, having better Damage, better Beam Duration, and better DPS has made it the clear winner compared to other Large Lasers.

With this update we are going alter the Large Pulse Laser a bit and reinforce the previously stated design goals, with Pulse Lasers shifting to a greater focus on DPS. To that end we have decreased their Damage and Heat, while maintaining their superior Beam Duration, and are reducing their Cooldown Duration further to keep DPS comparable its previous weapon properties. We are also bumping the Energy Consumption of the Large Pulse Lasers back to a 1:1 ratio, as it still provides a very powerful stat line for what the weapon brings to the table.

With this update we have also taken a look at the Medium Pulse Lasers, and feel that they too can use a bit of a DPS boost.

We would like to stress that these changes are not final, as we are trying to find a spot where Large Pulse Laser excels at its intended 400-600m DPS role without invalidating similar weapon options.

Medium Pulse Laser
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.1 (from 3.3)

Large Pulse Laser
• Damage decreased to 8 (from 9)
• Energy Consumption decreased to 8 (from 8.1)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.2 (from 3.5)

Clan Medium Pulse Laser
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.1 (from 3.3)

Clan Large Pulse Laser
• Damage decreased to 10 (from 11)
• Heat decreased to 9 (from 10)
• Energy Consumption increased to 10 (from 9.9)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.2 (from 3.5)

https://mwomercs.com...w-pts-16sep2016

So, they reduced the Dam/tick, and gave it slightly higher DPS, but left the weapon unchanged, only calling it a "DPS Weapon" in name

A radical change would be cutting most values in half, but giving the cooldown 1/3
That would be a DPS weapon, firing considerably more often for more DPS, not just cutting a third of a second off the cooldown

[Jiang Wei]

There are counters to mechs that use all energy weapons....

Edited by Jiang Wei, 03 June 2017 - 03:40 PM.

[Paigan]

OrmsbyGore, on 03 June 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

I hope they triple the heat of all laser weapons, this long range laser poke meta makes me sick. At least gauss/PPC requires skill to use

Talking about skill:
Long range laser usage requires:
- choosing a tactically effective position
- choosing targets wisely
- knowing when to get out of cover and when to retreat
- plain aiming skill and a lot of it
- checking where the team members are and how to help them best (e.g. press enemies into cover)
- managing the enormous heat
- torso twisting

It requires the most skill in the game on multiple levels, for sure.

Storming forward mindlessly into a suicidal brawl and then complaining that the team didn't help does NOT require any skill whatsoever. Only a naive romantic notion of being a skillful hero while actually, the opposite is true.

Edited by Paigan, 03 June 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[Ruar]

Paigan, on 03 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Talking about skill:
Long range laser usage requires:
- choosing a tactically effective position
- choosing targets wisely
- knowing when to get out of cover and when to retreat
- plain aiming skill and a lot of it
- managing the enormous heat
- torso twisting

It requires the most skill in the game, for sure.

All mechs need to choose a tactically effective position
All mechs have to choose targets wisely
All mechs have to know when to get out of cover and when to retreat
ERLL with the long burn time does require better aiming than most weapons
All mechs have to manage heat
All mechs have to torso twist

The only skill required of long range laser users is proper aiming with the long burn times. That's it

[Summon3r]

cazidin, on 03 June 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. What are some of the likely changes that PGI will make to energy weapons in the upcoming balance pass? What would you like to see changed and what would you recommend?

Paul will make a sweeping change and they will be back to the drawing board all over again

[King Chimera]

Ruar, on 03 June 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

All mechs need to choose a tactically effective position
All mechs have to choose targets wisely
All mechs have to know when to get out of cover and when to retreat
ERLL with the long burn time does require better aiming than most weapons
All mechs have to manage heat
All mechs have to torso twist

The only skill required of long range laser users is proper aiming with the long burn times. That's it

You're also exposing yourself a lot more with ER Larges than Gauss + PPC trash. My Supernova equipped with 6 ERLarges has to expose itself for nearly 4 seconds if I want to fire all 6 without ghost heat, about 2.5 if I fire them 3 at a time rather than 2.

Gauss and PPC can be fired with much less exposure with the only drawback being that you have to aim slightly ahead of the enemy mech that probably won't be stopping on a dime.

[Jiang Wei]

Reduce the damage of all lasers by 0.5 damage. There you go. OR, implement the special reflective armor like MW4. Why is it so hard for devs to come up with these simple solutions.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 03 June 2017 - 03:43 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Reduce clan laser damage by 1 point, but with correspondingly shorter duration and heat.

[Ruar]

Xiyumos, on 03 June 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

You're also exposing yourself a lot more with ER Larges than Gauss + PPC trash. My Supernova equipped with 6 ERLarges has to expose itself for nearly 4 seconds if I want to fire all 6 without ghost heat, about 2.5 if I fire them 3 at a time rather than 2.

Gauss and PPC can be fired with much less exposure with the only drawback being that you have to aim slightly ahead of the enemy mech that probably won't be stopping on a dime.

You are also at greater range and usually not in direct observation. At least you shouldn't be getting noticed as soon as you step out from cover.

[Wintersdark]

Xiyumos, on 03 June 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

You're also exposing yourself a lot more with ER Larges than Gauss + PPC trash. My Supernova equipped with 6 ERLarges has to expose itself for nearly 4 seconds if I want to fire all 6 without ghost heat, about 2.5 if I fire them 3 at a time rather than 2.

Gauss and PPC can be fired with much less exposure with the only drawback being that you have to aim slightly ahead of the enemy mech that probably won't be stopping on a dime.

expecting to fire 6 ER Larges in pairs without being targeted? This isn't wanting skill, it's wanting a fantasy.

Years, Gauss+PPC is "easier" (note: aiming is harder with different projectile speeds and no ability to correct, as well as managing Gauss charge) but wanting to chain through 3 sets of long burn lasers is just dumb and never going to be very practical.

Also, not 4 seconds, fire 2, half a second into the beam fire two more, then half a second d later 2 more. Don't need to wait for the end of the beam.

[King Chimera]

Wintersdark, on 03 June 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

expecting to fire 6 ER Larges in pairs without being targeted? This isn't wanting skill, it's wanting a fantasy.

Years, Gauss+PPC is "easier" (note: aiming is harder with different projectile speeds and no ability to correct, as well as managing Gauss charge) but wanting to chain through 3 sets of long burn lasers is just dumb and never going to be very practical.

Also, not 4 seconds, fire 2, half a second into the beam fire two more, then half a second d later 2 more. Don't need to wait for the end of the beam.

I haven't had much trouble in the few time I've run Gauss+PPC, *shrug*

[GrimRiver]

OrmsbyGore, on 03 June 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

I hope they triple the heat of all laser weapons, this long range laser poke meta makes me sick. At least gauss/PPC requires skill to use

Lasers require alot of facetime just to output their full damage.

ERPPC+GR meta you can just poptart over a hill for little to no facetime to output it's damage.

Also ERPPC+GR you can spam shots as fast as you GR cooldown is because GR heat is only 1 vs lasers high heat requires you to keep an eye always on the scale.

[OrmsbyGore]

Ruar, on 03 June 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

(several great points)....The only skill required of long range laser users is proper aiming with the long burn times. That's it

Plus the punishment for being deficient in the aforementioned skills is punished less when you use erLL, maybe even LL depending on quirks+SkTr etc., but Gauss and PPC require you to lead targets or else you miss, you can always rake with lasers if your target jukes or whatever.

Also, why is it that whenever I say that I don't like hiding behind objects on the other side of the map people immediately counter with "charging head long into the enemy is stupid"? No kidding, I'm not advocating for that either. How about moving towards the enemy in cover until you get into effective range (unless you're a heavy or assault, then you need to be close enough to share armor quickly if things get hairy) and kill the enemy? how about being active and seizing the initiative and the favorable ground? I'm not calling anyone out in particular, but if I wanted to camp and snipe, I'd play one of the shooters that already exist. Giant mech face-smashing leaves my options limited.

[OrmsbyGore]

GrimRiver, on 03 June 2017 - 06:34 PM, said:

Lasers require alot of facetime just to output their full damage. ERPPC+GR meta you can just poptart over a hill for little to no facetime to output it's damage. Also ERPPC+GR you can spam shots as fast as you GR cooldown is because GR heat is only 1 vs lasers high heat requires you to keep an eye always on the scale.

sure, pop-tarting reduces exposure time, but high mounts on certain mechs make hill humping (or multiple arm energy mounts for corner peeking I guess) a much lower risk proposition than you make it seem

[Wintersdark]

Xiyumos, on 03 June 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

I haven't had much trouble in the few time I've run Gauss+PPC, *shrug*

Did I say you would?

Look, people don't neatly filter into "Guys who demand the current meta stay" and "guys who are fighting against the mindless meta!" (and good god, does that moronic argument get old)

All I'm saying is, you're not gaining Bonus Hardmode Points trying to use 6 ERLL's; you're just being kind of dumb. They can't "fix" the game to make it better for that; with that kind of burn time, heat, and damage, it's just not really a good build and it can't be. Not with tracer beams showing where you are during that whole burn.

This has nothing to do with gauss/ppc, or difficulty - it's just a silly idea.

[Necromonger Commander]

Thought it was my imagination that I had to get a lot closer to use my Clan SPLs.....