44 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

Nah....this wasnt a major nerf at all.

Because there has just been a gigantic superbuff for cheetahs.

With the survival tree almost or entirely maxed out the cheetah can survive much longer, take much more grazing shots or even full hits and not crumble immediatly. It has become terribly effective. No....it was effective before. Now its outright lethal.

Even if they would have nerfed cspls more.

The major strength of lights wasnt insane dps to facetank down an assault.

Surgical assassins like the cheetah can hit exactly where it hurts, can move to any position, get into flanks or backs immediatly.

Now they arent glass bombs anymore. They are actaully (lightly) armored mechs.

I love the cheetah. Its a formidable killing machine.

But I played it extensively after the skill tree.

It was totally op in its current setup.

Totally op. Like super op.

Its still though now. Like still pretty much op. Just a little less hehe. Just a little less. But op it is.

[vibrant]

oneda, on 18 June 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

But I played it extensively after the skill tree.

It was totally op in its current setup.

Totally op. Like super op.

Its still though now. Like still pretty much op. Just a little less hehe. Just a little less. But op it is.

I remember playing against you a couple of times... one of the few players I remember, because you single-handedly kicked my *** both times in lights. That rarely ever happens... you're an exceptional player.

Most people though... don't fare so well in cheetahs. They're great, sure, but when I look at most people playing them, they are not OP. Better than most other lights, sure, but certainly not qualified of "OP" status.

And besides, the skill tree buff... adds, what, a max of a couple extra points of armor/structure to each component? At the tradeoff of... extra mobility, sensors, etc? I can understand how it might feel stronger... but the math doesn't follow that it suddenly becomes OP. Especially when you actually have to invest in it, at the expense of other opportunity cost.

[Ced Riggs]

Dee Eight, on 17 June 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

you cannot very well bring in a heavy small laser at 3 heat for 6 damage if the small pulse laser is exactly the same heat/damage stats already.

That's exactly the way the cookie crumbles here.

[Cato Phoenix]

Kharonn, on 17 June 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Keep boating those weapons and PGI will keep nerfing.

Did you have something else useful an ACH can carry with 6 energy hardpoints?

[Imperius]

Kharonn, on 17 June 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Keep boating those weapons and PGI will keep nerfing.

Let's just remove all the weapons from the game in the name of perfect balance! We will just let the MM give us the 50/50 w/l and hug things out every match!

How about we just merge all the armor points and make all mechs one giant hitbox. This would solve pinpoint complainers, time to kill, engine decoupling, XL vs Standard vs Clan, and much much more.

Also we will finally have MechAssault 3

[Tarl Cabot]

Just copying this from another thread. PGI has steadily been increasing cSPL damage since the Clans were introduced. It started off at 3.4dmg (June 2014) to 4.4dmg (July 2014) then finally 6dmg (Nov 2014). Like wtf?

Tarl Cabot, on 18 June 2017 - 06:17 AM, said:

I believe Dee Eight post needs to be repeated. I had forgotten and it appears many others also have or were not aware that PGI had doubled the Clan's cSPL stats from BT 3dmg/2heat to the current 6dmg/3heat. PGI has steadily been increasing the cSPL since the Clans went live June 2014.

The Clans cLPL appears to be the other outlier where it differs greater from its baseline of 10dmg/10heat to 13dmg/10heat. The rest of the lasers for both sides were generally tweaked a point for damage and/or heat.

Nov 4, 2014 patch where Clan laser stats, especially damage was increased across the board, cSPL from MWO 4.4dmg/3.4heat to 6dmg/3heat.

Nov 04 2014

Prior to that cSPL was changed from 3.4dmg to 4.4dmg

July 7, 2014 and a thread discussing just those changes

[cazidin]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 June 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

Balance is now up to Chris not Paul now, as per Russ on Twitter,

...I also made a joke about a new Balance Overlord.

...Does...

...Does PGI ACTUALLY read my joke posts?

What have I done?

[Captain Polux]

Ugh, heavily relied on the spl for my EBJs. Going to switch to ersl at least until the new tech drops.

[Summon3r]

Monkey Lover, on 17 June 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Nova,crow,hunch2c,linebacker,gargoyle and the executioner all had very heavy spl builds.

When you could boat 6-7+ of these it was deadly in range. I bet this popped up on the spread sheet. Of course the "in range" would be key

you pay a price to close that range though and once you close it you are fully committed with no out unless of course you run what remains of the board ESPECIALLY in CW.

Kharonn, on 17 June 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Keep boating those weapons and PGI will keep nerfing.

then get this horse and pony show to give us a pub que stock mode (dont care what the rules are 3025, IS vs IS, clan vs clan)....... lol Russ doesnt even respond to my bugging him for that anymore

Edited by Summon3r, 18 June 2017 - 07:38 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Pulse Lasers are heavier, shouldn't they have at least a leg up other lighter weapons? The nerf sounds like they are leveling the SPLs considering the roles only.

Pulse Lasers shouldve been turned into sustained DPS lasers. Thats the only way to give them a differential role in the game at this point. Otherwise theyre just going to be inferior to other options and never get used at all.

[FupDup]

Dee Eight, on 17 June 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

Pulse lasers... micro 1 for 3, small 2 for 3, medium 4 for 7 and large 10 for 10.

So TL;DR you want the Clan Micro Pulse Laser to be a purely direct upgrade over the Clan Small Pulse Laser, and the latter to simply never be used in any form.

The Heavy SL could have easily been something like 7 damage for 4 heat anyways.

[MustrumRidcully]

NlGHTBlRD, on 17 June 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

They just forgot that pulse lasers are heavier, that's all. It's not such an important fact if you think about it.

Quote

IS Small Laser
• Heat reduced to 1.7 (From 2)
IS Small Pulse Laser
• Damage reduced to 3.5 (From 4)
• Cooldown duration reduced to 2 (From 2.25)
Clan ER Small Laser
• Cooldown duration increased to 2.75 (From 2.25)
• Duration increased to 1.1 (From 1)
Clan Small Pulse Laser
• Damage reduced to 4 (From 6)
• Heat reduced to 2.7 (From 3)
• Cooldown duration reduced to 2 (From 2.25)
•Duration reduced to 0.6 (From 0.75)

They have a faster cooldown (more DPS) and a shorter duration (more precision) than Clan ER Small Laser. Obviously someone at PGI thinks that this is what twice the weight might be worth.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 June 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Dee Eight, on 17 June 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

Open a battletech manual...the changes are to bring all the mucked up values closer to the lore. Pulse lasers are NOT supposed to be more ridiculously more damage than heat per ton than regular or ER lasers.

Inner Sphere...

Small laser 1 heat for 3 damage, medium laser is 3 heat for 5, large is 8 for 8.
ERSL is 2 for 3, ERML is 5 for 5, ERLL is 12 for 8.
SPL is 2 for 3, MPL is 4 for 6 and LPL is 10 for 9.

Clan...

ER lasers... micro 1 for 2, small 2 for 5, med 5 for 7 and large 12 for 10
Pulse lasers... micro 1 for 3, small 2 for 3, medium 4 for 7 and large 10 for 10.
Heavy lasers.... small 3 for 6, medium 7 for 10 and large 18 for 16.


ERGO.... you cannot very well bring in a heavy small laser at 3 heat for 6 damage if the small pulse laser is exactly the same heat/damage stats already.

This is PGI's mistake then, as currently we have on the inner sphere side alone:
IS side standard lasers ) ERSL [SL are almost point for point ER class at this time], ML with poor cooling jackets [Tabletop effect +1 heat when used], LL with extra/efficient cooling jackets [-1 heat buildup when used].
so the changes do nothing to return the current ER small laser back to standard [but... um its barely worth using in most cases anyway so I dont think anyone's complaining about that], Medium lasers are almost back to the proper heat for damage, and large lasers aren't really changed. technically harder to get a full burn on one component, and the slightly faster cooldown will increase effective HPS but effective damage wont really change much. with 8 heat ERLL most people dont use standard LL at this time anyway.
For the ERLL, we have a really broken weapon. there is no equivalent. the duration and cooldown adjustments just make it better. Std LL would need something like 6 heat or 10 damage to compete with current ERLL and then you end up with a 5 ton psuedo LPL.
for pulse lasers ) SPL do one extra damage over TT. but it should have similar range to STD SL, and it doesn't. Really the best way to balance both would be for SL to have 90m effective but an extra 180m falloff, and give SPL 3 damage, but 120 effective, 60m falloff. that way StdSL could fight up to about 200m at low damage but could supplement medium lasers or SRMs, while SPL would have about 150m but other adjustments to make them viable, like oh say, energy machine guns... ok thats another topic.
SPL TT: 2 heat 3 damage, STD SL range. MWO SPL: 2 heat 4 damage, slightly above TT range. cooldown is a start in the right direction, and so is damage... but for MWO it wrecks it. in this case, a major duration and cooldown reduction in place of low range while keeping 2 heat for 3 straight damage might have ok the short is its a start but not enough and puts it in a nasty spot until it gets more tweaking. If any. next!
IS MPL ) 4 heat 5 damage. the heat and dooldown definetly will help it with it's lost TT damage. IS medium laser typess are getting some love at least. It might be too strong with the current state of energy weapons, MPL builds tend to be boat to the ends of the earth. hopefully it doesn't overreach and get future "balance" via spooky heat increase.
LPL ) whooo boy... 7 heat and 11 damage. see these numbers if reversed would be closer to TT [10 heat 9 damage] but then... ERLL would be better for brawling at current values. for IS larges, the numbers are all over the board, and thats where the problems in my mind are for large class weapons. someone decided 10 heat on LPL were too much, which effected standards, but ER were too hot... in my opinion, this is where it all broke.

I've already build a nice little wall of wordits, and my experience with clans is limited to 3 or 4 mechs, so I'll just drop that side. the numbers on IS alone just shows how much out of synch lasers are at this time.

[Alex Morgaine]

Khobai, on 18 June 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Pulse Lasers shouldve been turned into sustained DPS lasers. Thats the only way to give them a differential role in the game at this point. Otherwise theyre just going to be inferior to other options and never get used at all.

yeah thats my thought as well. turn them into energy machine guns, cooldown =0, damage is divided into ticks/second with total damage over say what the current cooldowns are, or standardize like machine guns over 10 seconds, with heat buildup like wise at +.1 or 1.2 or whatever number per tick.

[Deathlike]

NlGHTBlRD, on 17 June 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

They just forgot that pulse lasers are heavier, that's all. It's not such an important fact if you think about it.

You know you're supposed to "forget" important details like that in an Internet discussion or balance.

Opportunity cost is a Lostech level concept.

Weapon does X and Y? Wow, forget about the importance of Z requirements!

Edited by Deathlike, 18 June 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

My question is how does PGI get a data set (on if their nerf to the cspl and IS spl had its intended effect) if no one runs them anymore?

Unless that was part of the intent....idk..

[Deathlike]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 18 June 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

My question is how does PGI get a data set (on if their nerf to the cspl and IS spl had its intended effect) if no one runs them anymore?

Unless that was part of the intent....idk..

Your mass dataset comes from Tier 3 and under.

That is where the salt cash flows amirite?

You have to remember the fundamentally the real comp players are a minority so your dataset is influenced by the masses that are not capable of "targeting with R" or holding a proper lock with Streaks.

[vibrant]

Deathlike, on 18 June 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Your mass dataset comes from Tier 3 and under.

That is where the salt cash flows amirite?

You have to remember the fundamentally the real comp players are a minority so your dataset is influenced by the masses that are not capable of "targeting with R" or holding a proper lock with Streaks.

So if PGI are balancing around tier 3 and under, "where the cash flows"... why do they keep spending huge amounts of dev time on adding features for the "minority" competitive players?

[Deathlike]

vibrant, on 18 June 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

So if PGI are balancing around tier 3 and under, "where the cash flows"... why do they keep spending huge amounts of dev time on adding features for the "minority" competitive players?

Because e-sports?

The problem with that is that it is tied to balance... and you know how balance works around here (RNGesus is glowing with darts).

The thing is that PGI hasn't even designed a proper recording/replay interface, which is a common thing for e-sports. Take that for what that's worth. I mean, the reiterated complaints about PGI's use of red for screen visibility has gone unheeded for a while now.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 June 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 18 June 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

My question is how does PGI get a data set (on if their nerf to the cspl and IS spl had its intended effect) if no one runs them anymore?

Unless that was part of the intent....idk..

That's actually the entirety of how they balance. On MRBC's website, they have an interview with Chris Lowery posted up. In so many words, he describes the process PGI uses to balance as essentially a popularity contest. If something is used more than PGI thinks it should be, it gets whacked. If less, it gets buffed.

Never mind that the reason people use a lot of medium lasers is because they are tonnage efficient and there ain't always a whole lot else to work with...