53 replies to this topic

[Bellum Dominum]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

For the longest time the way Target Decay Module seemed to work against Radar Deprivation was that the two would essentially cancel each other out. Target Decay basically doubled your lock time, radar deprivation would remove the default lock time, and the result is you would be back at the default lock loss time (or close to it).

This was an important part of the escalating balance between LRMs and Counter LRMs that worked out fairly if both sides were matched.

Since the skill tree though, a fully skilled Radar Deprivation results in players losing lock almost instantly no matter how many points they have sunk in Target Decay.

I know LRMs aren't exactly popular around here but this is a huge nerf them. It changes the dynamic so that target decay is completely useless against any mech with radar deprivation. The only saving grace right now is the fact that most people are too cheap with their skill points to invest down the sensor tree.

So either Radar Deprivation is completely hard countering Target Decay, or Target decay isn't working. Either way, the balance has been disrupted and needs to be addressed.

HUH? I've had no problems with target decay... are you sure you aren't confusing the target decay skill with target retention? The later does NOTHING to help with keeping a lock if a target moves out of line of sight from your mech (breaks line of sight).

Also yes the old system made radar derp do an immediate target loss when they broke LOS... it was actually how it earned the nickname: radar derp

All in all reading through the thread I really have not had this issue what so ever and I've even ran an LRM100 Stalker just recently for shiznit and giggles (started getting bored and hadn't seen that build hit the drops in a long time so...)

I primarily run lights but I also run lrms from time to time: Cat-A1 6xLRM5 build, MDDs: one with 2xLRM20 and the other with 6xLRM5+4SmPulse, even a MAL-1R with 4xLRM15.. and have ran all of those the past few days with out experiencing what you guys are

Having LOS and losing a lock can mean a number of things: Move out of range for your sensors, an enemy mech with ECM moved up to that enemy or within range to break your lock (oh well just dumbfire if you have LOS anyways), enemy mech moved just outside your radar sensors range, an enemy ecm light has moved within range of you to squelch all over your sensors, heck it could mean that the friendly that had them in their range and locked dropped their lock for some reason and that you are not actually close enough to get the lock for yourself even though you can see the mech....

If running lrms the last few days has gained me any insight with the new changes it would be: not many people are actually running RADAR derp today or at least not enough nodes of it for it to really be a counter to my lrms....

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 20 June 2017 - 02:08 AM.

[JC Daxion]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 June 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

Even before skill tree the radar derp module made having target decay useless. It always should have been balanced in a way they cancel each out rather than making one more effective than the other.

totally disagree with this.. MAX target decay should give you a little bit of time after the mech goes behind cover. How long that is, can be up for debate, but i don't think it should be instant.

[Kmieciu]

Palfatreos, on 19 June 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

ST system
Full target no radar (10 SP)= 2 + 3.5 = 5.5 sec
Full radar (16 SP)= insta loss no matter how many decay
60% (9SP) radar full target decay = 5.5 - 5.5*60% = 2.2 sec

Gotta test it in private matches to be sure.

Although it fits my observations: against players in trial or unskilled mechs, the LRMs are the god-tier weapon. Able to pound them long after they broke the LOS.

Against full radar derp, they are even more useless than before skill tree.

Having said that, I've been using 60% derp on all of my mechs, except dedicated brawling builds for scouting mode. I "feel" the 60% radar derp has more or less the same effectiveness as the radar derp module before the skill tree.

[JC Daxion]

Bellum Dominum, on 20 June 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

Having LOS and losing a lock can mean a number of things: Move out of range for your sensors, an enemy mech with ECM moved up to that enemy or within range to break your lock (oh well just dumbfire if you have LOS anyways), enemy mech moved just outside your radar sensors range, an enemy ecm light has moved within range of you to squelch all over your sensors, heck it could mean that the friendly that had them in their range and locked dropped their lock for some reason and that you are not actually close enough to get the lock for yourself even though you can see the mech....
...

No.. There is an issue going on right now.. I should take screenies to show it. the other day i was playing on frozen, and i was maybe 300m away from my target, he was in full LOS, and i kept loosing my lock. Loosing lock from ECM is different than normal loss. You can tell.

The mech was partially under cover, but i could still see about 1/4 of the top of the mech, and it kept blinking in and out. I've had it happen on many maps. I only noticed it because i just happened to be playing my Ebon with some LRM's for some kicks in the BZZZT event.

I dunno if it is an invisible wall thing? Or perhaps the Lock is lower on the mech? I notice it happens more when i am also partially under cover as well. Perhaps the lock mechanism needs to be moved to head for locks? (i am not saying targeting the head, i am saying the top of the mech)

Edited by JC Daxion, 20 June 2017 - 02:26 AM.

[Spr1ggan]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

For the longest time the way Target Decay Module seemed to work against Radar Deprivation was that the two would essentially cancel each other out. Target Decay basically doubled your lock time, radar deprivation would remove the default lock time, and the result is you would be back at the default lock loss time (or close to it).

This was an important part of the escalating balance between LRMs and Counter LRMs that worked out fairly if both sides were matched.

Since the skill tree though, a fully skilled Radar Deprivation results in players losing lock almost instantly no matter how many points they have sunk in Target Decay.

I know LRMs aren't exactly popular around here but this is a huge nerf them. It changes the dynamic so that target decay is completely useless against any mech with radar deprivation. The only saving grace right now is the fact that most people are too cheap with their skill points to invest down the sensor tree.

So either Radar Deprivation is completely hard countering Target Decay, or Target decay isn't working. Either way, the balance has been disrupted and needs to be addressed.

I've had the opposite experience, it feels like i am locked longer than ever currently. It has gotten to the point i have taken both the ecm nodes and most of the radar dep nodes. And even with uavs being shot down i still feel like i'm perma locked.

Maybe people used to just ignore taking the target decay modules before because i definitely wasn't under target lock as much under the old system.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 20 June 2017 - 03:43 AM.

[Jman5]

JC Daxion, on 20 June 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

I honestly think there is some sorta target decay bug going around..

I lose lock on things when i am looking right at them and have my own LOS..


And no Target Decay is NOT just for LRM's, It can also be used in other mechs, like flankers/hunters to know where mechs are when you are chasing them. Also Streaks, but they get affected by the loss of LOS a bit less.

at any rate, I really think there is a bug happening.

I'm planning on getting to the bottom of this later today when private lobbies become unlocked for all. I know that the guy I was having trouble with losing lock instantly had full radar deprivation skills because I asked him at the end of the game.

And yeah, target decay (assuming it works right) is definitely a useful tool for non-lrm players too. For example, longer lock = more time for paper doll info to pop up. Target info gather + Target Decay synergize well here. Especially now since they bumped up the target info times noticeably. You also have a tendency to pick up lots of Spotting assist bonuses just because everyone else loses lock but you.

Sensor Class is a very utilitarian one. I think it's under appreciated because the trend-setting players and teams in this game operate in a very different world than 99% of us. What is less useful in competitive or high performance group, may be quite handy in the solo queue, or with a more casual group queue team.

[Elizander]

Ced Riggs, on 19 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Radar Derp module was 100%, wasn't it?

It only removed the extra seconds that Target Decay added to lock on time, but the default of something like 1.5 seconds was still there.

[Bellum Dominum]

JC Daxion, on 20 June 2017 - 02:24 AM, said:

No.. There is an issue going on right now.. I should take screenies to show it. the other day i was playing on frozen, and i was maybe 300m away from my target, he was in full LOS, and i kept loosing my lock. Loosing lock from ECM is different than normal loss. You can tell.

Well with the recent changes this could be true but still does not rule out the variable. All the variables could be coming into play at the same time even....

Some vids of the issue would certainly be helpful, because seriously... I have not had any of these issues.

(Oh and to your 'move the target lock to the head' I'm not sure that target lock is even set to a hitbox of the enemy mech but if it is and we can be given back headshot kills with lrms I say do it! jk don't freak people)

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 21 June 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Ok guys, I've tested this issue with my unit in a private match.

Jman and Palfatreos were right.

Fully skilled Radar Deprivation breaks the lock instantly, no matter how many points of Target Decay the enemy has.

My friends confirmed they immediately lost their lock of my mech once I dropped from their sight, and I could instantly hear the sound of my mech disappearing from their sensors. (the sound Ling mech pilots repeatedly hear when they're entering the danger zone ;-))

So, the skill tree gave radar derp a big boost. Before, LRM boats using advanced target decay had a chance against mechs using radar deprivation. https://youtu.be/PYB1BS-arD4

Now, using 3 nodes of radar derp (minimum 9 total nodes spent) you can counter 5 nodes of target decay (minimum 10 total nodes spent).

Interestingly enough Radar Deprivation has no effect on Target Retention. Target Retention literally gives you 360 degrees of radar which is very useful in brawling, since when fighting someone using radar deprivation a simple torso twist will make you lose his targeting information.

Edited by Kmieciu, 21 June 2017 - 02:18 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Bellum Dominum, on 21 June 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

Well with the recent changes this could be true but still does not rule out the variable. All the variables could be coming into play at the same time even....

Some vids of the issue would certainly be helpful, because seriously... I have not had any of these issues.

(Oh and to your 'move the target lock to the head' I'm not sure that target lock is even set to a hitbox of the enemy mech but if it is and we can be given back headshot kills with lrms I say do it! jk don't freak people)

Unfortunately my vid card i don't think would let me get decent enough framerates to actually play the game..

as for move the target lock area.. I am just wondering if it was because of invisible wall height thing.. When i noticed this happening most, was when i was mostly covered, but could still see the target, and the target was also mostly covered, but part was peaking out still.

I never stopped seeing the mech, YET it would drop off radar.



As far as the testing goes, Is this how it is suppose to be working? I was under the impression that radar dep was not suppose to be that way anymore, and be strictly a time reduction thing.

[LORD ORION]

Jman5, on 19 June 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

For the longest time the way Target Decay Module seemed to work against Radar Deprivation was that the two would essentially cancel each other out. Target Decay basically doubled your lock time, radar deprivation would remove the default lock time, and the result is you would be back at the default lock loss time (or close to it).

This was an important part of the escalating balance between LRMs and Counter LRMs that worked out fairly if both sides were matched.

Since the skill tree though, a fully skilled Radar Deprivation results in players losing lock almost instantly no matter how many points they have sunk in Target Decay.

I know LRMs aren't exactly popular around here but this is a huge nerf them. It changes the dynamic so that target decay is completely useless against any mech with radar deprivation. The only saving grace right now is the fact that most people are too cheap with their skill points to invest down the sensor tree.

So either Radar Deprivation is completely hard countering Target Decay, or Target decay isn't working. Either way, the balance has been disrupted and needs to be addressed.

Radar derp was a hard counter to target decay.
As soon as you lost LoS you lost lock against a radar derp mech, regardless if you had target decay or not.

[Kmieciu]

JC Daxion, on 21 June 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

I was under the impression that radar dep was not suppose to be that way anymore, and be strictly a time reduction thing.

It is.
A 100% time reduction thing ;-)

LORD ORION, on 21 June 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Radar derp was a hard counter to target decay.
As soon as you lost LoS you lost lock against a radar derp mech, regardless if you had target decay or not.

Not true: https://youtu.be/PYB1BS-arD4

Edited by Kmieciu, 21 June 2017 - 02:24 AM.

[JC Daxion]

LORD ORION, on 21 June 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Radar derp was a hard counter to target decay.
As soon as you lost LoS you lost lock against a radar derp mech, regardless if you had target decay or not.

Well honestly as i said, this makes no sense.. You are basically saying one skill is completely useless if you have it.

Even ECM has counters, but radar dep has none?

[LORD ORION]

JC Daxion, on 21 June 2017 - 02:24 AM, said:

Well honestly as i said, this makes no sense.. You are basically saying one skill is completely useless if you have it.

Even ECM has counters, but radar dep has none?

Correct, which is why nearly every mech in FP had Radar Derp + Sesmic

of course now it is the opposite.

Nearly every mech in FP does NOT have radar derp or Seismic.

[Jman5]

So just an update after testing it in the private lobby, I can confirm Level 5 Radar deprivation lets you instantly lose lock even against a guy with level 5 target decay. The following times might be off by 10 or so milliseconds, but you get the idea

No Skills: 2 seconds
Target Decay 5 vs Nothing: 5.5 seconds
Target Decay 5 vs Radar 5: instant loss
Target Decay 5 vs Radar 3: 2.2 seconds.

I want to reiterate that this was not how it used to work. The relationship between Target Decay and Radar deprivation have been tested many times before. Target Decay always used to give you at least a couple seconds of lock time. Thinking about it, I'm guessing the old radar deprivation module only went up to 60% reduction.

Without some way for LRM players to up the ante in terms of being able to hold a lock, this is effectively a nearly rock-hard counter to them. If you're willing to put in the points you will only get hit when you're under a UAV or just standing out in the open while the LRMs slowly head your way.

We can debate how many points it should cost to get level 5 radar dep and level 5 target decay, but the concept of escalating counters needs to be put back in place.

[Bellum Dominum]

Trying to remember if I have an videos in any of my LRM boats to link but I really do think radar derp used to be instant loss. A hard counter to target decay. I rarely used radar derp myself so couldn't comment on that side of the situation.

I've always thought instant loss if you have target decay was terrribad. I remember well when they put that module in.. they added target decay just so LRMs could still be at least somewhat effective when LOS was lost and then turned around and negated the module they added. (There were TONS AND TONS of forum posts about this when they first added the modules *both of them*)

I guess if it's going to be an instant loss at least they named it correctly for that....

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 21 June 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I wish they would nerf indirect fire MORE and then just make LRMs better personally.

[Jman5]

Bellum Dominum, on 21 June 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Trying to remember if I have an videos in any of my LRM boats to link but I really do think radar derp used to be instant loss. A hard counter to target decay. I rarely used radar derp myself so couldn't comment on that side of the situation.

I've always thought instant loss if you have target decay was terrribad. I remember well when they put that module in.. they added target decay just so LRMs could still be at least somewhat effective when LOS was lost and then turned around and negated the module they added. (There were TONS AND TONS of forum posts about this when they first added the modules *both of them*)

I guess if it's going to be an instant loss at least they named it correctly for that....

There is a video linked in this thread and older threads talking about this stuff if you want to dig around.

I played almost nothing but a LRM boat for like a year straight. The difference between having a target decay or not versus a guy with a radar deprivation module was very noticeable. Trust me on this, I would have stopped playing it after a week if radar deprivation was causing instant lock loss vs target decay. It would have been practically impossible to do anything since so many people ran radar deprivation modules.

I have fought lots and lots of people with radar deprivation modules in a lrm boat. Max Radar Deprivation is way stronger now.

Edited by Jman5, 21 June 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Jman5]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 June 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

I wish they would nerf indirect fire MORE and then just make LRMs better personally.

I wouldn't be against it. Probably should increase the spread and lock time for indirect locks a little more than it already is.

Edited by Jman5, 21 June 2017 - 10:00 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 June 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

I wish they would nerf indirect fire MORE and then just make LRMs better personally.

I've said many times that LRM's should only indirect fire with Tag, NARC, UAV and then give an LOS buff by dropping the firing arc a bit when you have LOS. Maybe up the speed a tiny bit too.

Jman5, on 21 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

There is a video linked in this thread and older threads talking about this stuff if you want to dig around.

I played almost nothing but a LRM boat for like a year straight. The difference between having a target decay or not versus a guy with a radar deprivation module was very noticeable. Trust me on this, I would have stopped playing it after a week if radar deprivation was causing instant lock loss vs target decay. It would have been practically impossible to do anything since so many people ran radar deprivation modules.

I have fought lots and lots of people with radar deprivation modules in a lrm boat. Max Radar Deprivation is way stronger now.

Yea, i used target decay before and it did not seam to blink out like it does now. That's why i could swear it was a bug I really need to make a vid of it blinking in and out even with the target in site. (granted not full site of the entire mech, but i can see the mech from my cockpit, that should be enough to hold lock no?)

And if it is adding up to 100%= Instant, then it really does need a Node % nerf. Even 2.5% would be great. that would mean you would max out at 90% giving you a little time to hold that lock. (would be a little under 1 second with full target decay nodes)